Goodbye HK, Hello Denon, good move?!?

audiobliss · May 2006

Haha. Good response!

myork · May 2006

There was an online in depth review of the 3805, and it was shown to put out 97wpc with all channels driven.

That being said, I have the 3805 powering 2 rti10s, a cs245i, and 2 rt35is, and the setup does sound nice. But I am contemplating getting a seperate amp for the fronts and center.

SCompRacer · May 2006

I have a 3805 and like it very much. I tried the bi-amp thing once and got the noise with so-so results. It's not what I would call a hi-fi solutuion.

Like it's been said, you have a good AVR now so you'd be money ahead just investing in an external amp. Get a powerful enough amp, your set for a future speaker upgrade, should you elect to go that route.

jayman_1975 · May 2006

well i guess i chose the wrong word "discrete" to say what i meant..sorry about that..i only meant to get the point across that there are 7 seperate channels with a certain amount of power set aside for each channel..and when the rear surrounds aren't being used it just makes sense to put them to use by using this bi-amping technique. I don't imagine that it helps much when running multi-channel but i think for 2 channel only it makes a difference...to my ears anyways. Didn't mean to start a pissing contest. Sorry. I think i might have had a couple wobbly pops in me the night i wrote that so that would explain me being a little bit of an ****. Again..sorry.

SKsolutions · May 2006

I didn't exactly let you off the hook either, so, cool.

Point being that is usually not effective to borrow from peter to pay paul if they have a joint checking account. Amp before receiver +1

jayman_1975 · May 2006

yeah..i don't have the luxury of an external amp right now so i'm just making do with what i have for now....i'm kinda keeping my eye out for a good deal on one but i can't make up my mind if i want to buy a two channel now or wait and save up and get a 5 channel. I'm sure that when i get an amp i'll be a believer in seperates.

Lowell_M · May 2006

would a 2 channel amp be sufficient for what jayman needs here? The RTi10's need the power, then the HK wouldn't be loaded as much to run the other speakers.

SKsolutions · May 2006

You might in the interim, play the 10's only in 2ch when you want volume, and set them to medium when watching movies if you have a sub.

You could also add amps in increments. To start, a 2 or 3 channel would take a load off the HK as a_mattison suggested, and wait and see for the surround power. There are some good 5 channels out there, but there are others here that would be better informed to give you their experience with them.

aaharvel · May 2006

cstpeter wrote:

when I went from the HK 135 to the Denon 3806 I noticed a HUGE improvement.

as would anybody. Not exactly a fair comparison, no?

kingtut · May 2006

Check out these used amps on the 'Gon, no affiliation.
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampsmult&1151778235

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampsmult&1151880728

The 80w/channel on my Audiosource Amp1 sounded better than the 110w on my Denon 3803.

demosthenis · July 2006

Thank you all for responding to my initial query. I got a lot of responses and learned a bit from side discussions.

I didn't go with the Denon AVR-3805 or stick with the Harman and get separate amps. Instead Costco's new inventory made the decision for me. Costco recently began carrying the Denon AVR-3806. The receiver has the same power ratings as the AVR-3805, however; from what I read the discrete amps were upgraded, the 2-channel Surround Back/Multi Zone/ Front amps are assignable, and of course, 1080p HDMI switching.

I went ahead and purchased this receiver for three reasons:

1) As I bought it from Costco, I can return it, for any reason, at any time, with no limitations whatsoever. This means that should I decide separate amps are the way to go, I get a full refund and start the buyin'.

2) The amps in the AVR-3806 are "supposedly" better than in the AVR-3805, but are nonetheless definitely better that the HK AVR 435.

3) The extra 2 120W channels are assignable to 2 multi zones, the surround back channels in 7.1, an extra set of front speakers, OR to be used in conjunction with the FRONT channel amps for specific Bi-Amping.

So I hooked up the receiver, and after tremendous labor in adjusting it, it sounds nothing less than incredible. Sound is fuller, cleaner, and much more spacious. Anything with a guitar riff is chest rattling. An interesting an notable difference is with volume, although is wasn't necessarily a desired change, is capable at much higher levels. By this I mean that you can turn the volume to levels that would normally hurt one's ears, however, it doesn't. Response remains crystal clear with no peak or cracking, dynamic range remains flat as can be. The receiver works best with no equalization on at all, and no tonal or bass adjustments. It is superb in reproducing audio with the equalization applied at the studio.

My setup is now adjusted as follows: RTi10 fronts, CSi5 center, FXi5 surrounds, and two PSW404 subs. The Denon AVR-3806 sends 240W to each RTi10, and 120W to every other speaker (excluding self-powered subs).

I've A-B tested how much of a difference the bi-amping makes by turning the extra amps on and off. The difference is not necessarily night and day, but it's clear with jazz, guitar riffs, and any explosion. The difference is how much 60-120 fill-in there is. The sound is richer and punchier.

In the end, no $$ was wasted because I can change my mind.

Thanks again for your time and effort---

-Demosthenis

demosthenis · July 2006

Thank you all for responding to my initial query. I got a lot of responses and learned a bit from side discussions.

I didn't go with the Denon AVR-3805 or stick with the Harman and get separate amps. Instead Costco's new inventory made the decision for me. Costco recently began carrying the Denon AVR-3806. The receiver has the same power ratings as the AVR-3805, however; from what I read the discrete amps were upgraded, the 2-channel Surround Back/Multi Zone/ Front amps are assignable, and of course, 1080p HDMI switching.

I went ahead and purchased this receiver for three reasons:

1) As I bought it from Costco, I can return it, for any reason, at any time, with no limitations whatsoever. This means that should I decide separate amps are the way to go, I get a full refund and start the buyin'.

2) The amps in the AVR-3806 are "supposedly" better than in the AVR-3805, but are nonetheless definitely better that the HK AVR 435.

3) The extra 2 120W channels are assignable to 2 multi zones, the surround back channels in 7.1, an extra set of front speakers, OR to be used in conjunction with the FRONT channel amps for specific Bi-Amping.

So I hooked up the receiver, and after tremendous labor in adjusting it, it sounds nothing less than incredible. Sound is fuller, cleaner, and much more spacious. Anything with a guitar riff is chest rattling. An interesting an notable difference is with volume, although is wasn't necessarily a desired change, is capable at much higher levels. By this I mean that you can turn the volume to levels that would normally hurt one's ears, however, it doesn't. Response remains crystal clear with no peak or cracking, dynamic range remains flat as can be. The receiver works best with no equalization on at all, and no tonal or bass adjustments. It is superb in reproducing audio with the equalization applied at the studio.

My setup is now adjusted as follows: RTi10 fronts, CSi5 center, FXi5 surrounds, and two PSW404 subs. The Denon AVR-3806 sends 240W to each RTi10, and 120W to every other speaker (excluding self-powered subs).

I've A-B tested how much of a difference the bi-amping makes by turning the extra amps on and off. The difference is not necessarily night and day, but it's clear with jazz, guitar riffs, and any explosion. The difference is how much 60-120 fill-in there is. The sound is richer and punchier.

In the end, no $$ was wasted because I can change my mind.

Thanks again for your time and effort---

-Demosthenis

Toxis · July 2006

double post ^

Great decision. But I'm extremely disappointed to know that Costco of all places carry Denon. What is with the electronics industry these days???

cfrizz · July 2006

It's called trying to make a profit. The more places they sell the more money they get! I'd rather see them in there than Bose!

Toxis · July 2006

I thought Bose was already at Costco??? I know they are at Sam's. But who cares about Bose... that's **** product anyway. I just hate to see Denon stretch themselves to thin and end up having to cut quality for quantity.

wingnut4772 · July 2006

a_mattison wrote:

Keep the HK get an amp +1

Absolutely!

Lowell_M · July 2006

Toxis wrote:

I thought Bose was already at Costco??? I know they are at Sam's. But who cares about Bose... that's **** product anyway. I just hate to see Denon stretch themselves to thin and end up having to cut quality for quantity.

I saw a middle aged couple talking to a SAMs sales person about the Bose system the other day and nearly felt compelled to go explain to them that Bose was ****. Decided they probably wouldn't understand.

gregure · July 2006

Denon receivers are crap. Anything less than the 4800/5800 series is not very good. The 3805 will be ok to drive your Polks, but honestly a better HK or even a nicer Marantz would have given you better sound. Rotel is a good brand in that price range as well.

kingtut · July 2006

gregure wrote:

Denon receivers are crap. Anything less than the 4800/5800 series is not very good. The 3805 will be ok to drive your Polks, but honestly a better HK or even a nicer Marantz would have given you better sound. Rotel is a good brand in that price range as well.

I wouldn't call them crap. When I think of crap, I think of Bose, and Denon is much much better than Bose. My AVR 3803 has a better processor than the H/K 525 I used to own. I do have to agree that the H/K sounds warmer (and better to the people who prefer the warmer sound).

Toxis · July 2006

Crap? Bold statement. But I guarantee 75+% of the people who do a pepsi challenge between Denon and HK will chose Denon. I've done this a thousand times at work using Polk, Klipsch and Infinity speakers. All of them sound better on Denon.

60% of the time, Denon would win everytime...

cfrizz · July 2006

I'm sure Denon is laughing all the way to the bank with their crap!:rolleyes:

demosthenis · July 2006

Sorry about the double post.

Although Costco carries Denon, and has spontaneously in the past, Denon is by no means spreading themselves thin. Costco is not an "authorized" dealer of the product. The receiver is not available in their warehouses, and can only be ordered from their website.

Here is a quote from their website on the product page Denon AVR-3806: "This item is covered by Costco's guarantee to refund your purchase price if you are not completely satisfied. Costco's guarantee applies, even though this item may not be covered by the manufacturer's warranty, because Costco is not an "authorized" dealer of the merchandise."

This means that Costco couldn't buy receivers directly from Denon if they tried, however; if another dealer/retailer had an excess stock of said receiver and Costco offered to buy it at a good price (in bulk), they would have that access. This is a move Costco often makes.

Denon is therefore not retailing through Costco by choice, and can thus void any Denon warranty.

As far as Denon's quality is concerned, there is no need for me to argue in Denon's defense as the receiver sounds phenomenally better than my HK did. Simply as that, if it didn't I'd return it. Are there better options? Absolutely, but not for the price and convenience. I'm sure I'll desire something even better one of these days and shell out for separate amps, but this is sufficient for now.

aaharvel · July 2006

I like Denon.

Lowell_M · July 2006

Denon sounds fine to me. Love my HK, though I have never done a side by side comparison.

shiu · July 2006

bobman1235 wrote:

I'm real glad you guys noticed a positive difference, but let's just put it this way.

From the respective owner's manuals :
Denon 3805 - max power draw = 7.1A @ 120V, or 852W.
H/K 435 - max power draw = 1000W.

You tell me which one is capable of putting out more power.

I would say the 3805 will put out more power. Here's why I say that:

The 1000W is "maximum". HK seems to be the only one that specify "maximum". I believe the Yamaha is starting to do the same with their latest model, e.g., they provide both the normal and maximum consumption for the RX-V2600, with the maximum number much higher.

Take a look of the "power consumption" number at the back panel of the 430 (They don't show it on the 435 but the two are rated pretty much the same).

http://manuals.harman.com/HK/Owner%27s%20Manual/AVR%20430%20OM%20FINAL%20(REV%201-5-04).pdf

You will see that the 430 takes in only 550W, presumably under similar conditions, the 3805 will consume 852 VA, or around 700W depends on the power factor. I guess the maximum for the 3805 would be well in excess of 1000W.

Anyway, based on lab measurements by S&V, HT Mag and a couple of British audio magazines, the 3805 is much more powerful that even the 630, though the 630 is a few pounds heavier.

Here is one example, 630, 3805 review and measured by the same person.
http://hometheatermag.com/receivers/804denon/
http://hometheatermag.com/receivers/804hk/

shiu · July 2006

demosthenis, I think you made a wise decision, the 3806 will give you much more power than the 435, especially when your RTi10's dip into 4 ohms occasionally. I based my comments on lab measurements on its predecessor, the 3805, and the 435's bigger cousin, the 630, as well as my listening experience with those receivers driving the RTi10. Down the load you can still add an amp.

Congratulations!

Goodbye HK, Hello Denon, good move?!?

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