Goodbye HK, Hello Denon, good move?!?

demosthenis

I'm currently using an HK AVR435 (65wpc) to drive my RTi10's, CSi5, FXi5's, and PSW404. I know, sad, but true lack of power for these beauties! Here's the catch, I'm selling my AVR435 to a buddy, and for a net $475, upgrading to a Denon AVR-3805.

The denon is rated at 120wpc. While I understand this is still minimal for my speakers (RTi10's at least), this particular reciever allows you to utilize a nice little bi-amping trick. It just so happens that there is a Zone 2 and Zone 3 output for the reciever. I can bi-amp my RTi10's by sending a full signal from the main speaker terminals on the denon, to the high frequency RTi10 terminals. I woud then use the front L & R pre-out, loop it through Zone 3, and hook the Zone 3 speaker terminals on the denon to the low frequency terminals on the RTi10. Yes, confusing, here is a site with detailed instructions: Audioholics Denon AVR-3805 240wpc Bi-amping Guide.

Now, if I travel this route, I go from 65wpc all around (except sub), to this:
-RTi10's @ 240wpc Bi-amped
-CSi5 @ 120wpc
-FXi5 @ 120wpc
-PSW404 @ standard powered amp of 200-300wpc

Should I do this? Will this improve my music and movie experience dramatically (I'm verrrrry picky)?

-Demosthenis

Dennis Gardner

You just bought yourself 1 or 2 db more volume...............For $475, I would have kept the HK and added a really killer 2 channel amp, but thats just me. Biamping using a receiver's other channels is nothing to brag about and some will call it plain rigged.

To each his own, that is what this hobby is all about....choices.

Zen Dragon

demosthenis wrote:

Should I do this? Will this improve my music and movie experience dramatically (I'm verrrrry picky)?

I am not familiar with the biamping procedure you are describing and a little too tired to read up on the link at the moment. It does sound a little odd though.
If you are very picky, the best advice is what you will see time and time again on this forum. Run the main pre-amp out to a separate amplifier for the RTI's. An integrated receiver can not deliver the kind of high current amplification of a quality separate amp. Use the rest of the reciever to drive the HT stuff, but a separate amp for the mains will give you that high quality sound for the "very picky"

cfrizz

Welcome to the club.

The Denon is fine. However, if you really want to hear what your speakers are capable of, start saving to get a 2-7 channel amplifier to run your speakers through the preouts which the Denon has.

Willow

Dennis Gardner wrote:

For $475, I would have kept the HK and added a really killer 2 channel amp, but thats just me. .

Not just you, I agree. I think shoulda kept the HK bought a used amp off the flea and you'd make that 3806 seem like a walkman.

Lowell_M

Keep the HK get an amp +1

GATOR3000

Agree with all of the above. I have Denon 3806 and did bi-amp my fronts with the Zone 1 or 2 amps don’t remember now which one. “Dennnis Gardner” is right. You will gain 2db but that is all. Actually bi-amping with Denon’s Zone channels will make your Rti’s tweeters very bright. It is not very pleasing to any ears especially for music audio.

External amp for your fronts is the way to go. HK AVR435 is a very fine receiver! IMO take your $475 and put it against separate amp and you will see what you have been missing.

Gator

bobman1235

Most would argue that using the separate "zones" on your receiver is more like bi-wiring than bi-amping. YOu're just taking power from one part of your receiver and routing it to another, no actual "gain" there. IN fact, rather than letting your speaker's crossovers make the decision of how much power to distribute to each speaker component, you've now let the Denon "decide" which most likely means splitting the power down the middle. So I'd say your "bi-amping" option is actually a downgrade, or at best an upgrade in the vain of bi-wiring, whihc I would argue is no upgrade at all.

Someone correct me if I'm speaking out my **** but I swear I've heard similar sentiments said on this board before.

jayman_1975

i have the 3805 and i have bi-amped my M70's. I think it sounds really good. Only thing i don't care for is a very slight barely audible hiss when no music is being played. This is not present when not bi-amping. I would like to get an external amp some day and wire it normally but for now i think bi-amping this way is definitely an improvement. If you already had the Denon i would definitely recommend it but if you're going to be spending more money just to get the Denon, i agree with the others, spend it on a good external amp. Let the record show that this method of bi-amping does actually send more current to your speakers because it is using the zone 3 amps that are otherwise not being used. This "zone 3" amp is also the amp that would run your rear surrounds if you were using 7.1. So if you're only using 5.1 then these amps are available for bi-amping duty.

MADGSF

HK and amp +1.

Don't have experience with either receiver but did try the bi-amping route on my Elite. Out of the box I started with my RTi-10s bi-amped and ran them like that for the first year. For grins I switched to the normal “non-biamped” setup and prefer the sound. I would say the sound is more seamless from top to bottom. With them bi-amped there was, for lack of a better term, a noticeable gap between the highs and lows. I want to get an amp at some point to drive at least the L/R and hopefully L/C/R or more.

As for brightness, not bi-amped they warmed up some but with my CD player they are still bright. I have an older Yamaha CD player, with analog outputs only, that is exceedingly bright with or without bi-amping. My solution is I use my Sony DVD player, with a digital output, for music. I have not tested to see if it’s due to the DVD using a digital connection and the Yamaha analog but with the DVD player I am able to enjoy music again.

RoosterD

GATOR3000 wrote:

Agree with all of the above. I have Denon 3806 and did bi-amp my fronts with the Zone 1 or 2 amps don’t remember now which one. “Dennnis Gardner” is right. You will gain 2db but that is all. Actually bi-amping with Denon’s Zone channels will make your Rti’s tweeters very bright. It is not very pleasing to any ears especially for music audio.

External amp for your fronts is the way to go. HK AVR435 is a very fine receiver! IMO take your $475 and put it against separate amp and you will see what you have been missing.

Gator

I came to the same conclusion with my setup. It will undounbtedly come down to personal preference much like wine, but I don't have mine bi-amped anymore. It was just a little too bright. I ended up getting frustrated with the volume on Zone 3 because I couldn't figure out what setting would match the norm since 0db was too bright. I'm assuming this brightness ahs something to do with it being easier for the amp to drive the tweeters than the 2-drivers with the sub. I assumed it would have been tweeters and drivers, then the sub alone but that's not the case with my LSi's. I'm definitely excited to get a separate amp. I'm leaning toward Parasound Halo, but I haven't done that much research yet. (sorry didn't mean to hijack,... Carry on )

drew spelts

Stay with the HK and get the amps everyone is suggesting.

demosthenis

I haven't sold my HK or purchased the Denon yet, so I'll abide by the consesus and keep my HK. The only issue with this is that I'm still only running 65wpc on the other channels (surrounds and center) if I buy a two channel amp. If I went with a multi-channel amp (of which I'm sure there are none in my $500 price range), I would gain amperage on the rest of my system (say 125wpc as an example), but now I only have 125wpc on my RTi10's, and no bi-amping. For $400-$500, how can I get over 100wpc on everything, and possible over 200wpc on my fronts?

If the answer simply is "I can't", or "keep saving", then I might as well go with the Denon as my wattage increase would be the most for the $, and I get a THD rating of 0.05%, as opposed to HK @ 0.07% (as if it makes any audible difference ).

What say you?

-Demosthenes

DollarDave

Check e-bay - Carver 405 and 505 amps go for between 225 and 450. They are 5 channel amps and others here will have some feedback and opionion on how they will match up with your equipment.

Early B.

demosthenis wrote:

I haven't sold my HK or purchased the Denon yet, so I'll abide by the consesus and keep my HK. The only issue with this is that I'm still only running 65wpc on the other channels (surrounds and center) if I buy a two channel amp. If I went with a multi-channel amp (of which I'm sure there are none in my $500 price range), I would gain amperage on the rest of my system (say 125wpc as an example), but now I only have 125wpc on my RTi10's, and no bi-amping. For $400-$500, how can I get over 100wpc on everything, and possible over 200wpc on my fronts?

If the answer simply is "I can't", or "keep saving", then I might as well go with the Denon as my wattage increase would be the most for the $, and I get a THD rating of 0.05%, as opposed to HK @ 0.07% (as if it makes any audible difference ).

First of all, forget about looking at watts and forget about bi-amping. Watts don't mean a damn thing and bi-amping is not an ideal scenario. Do it right or don't do it at all.

Second, for $400 - $500 you can buy a very nice used 2-channel or decent 3-channel amp that will sound much better than virtually any receiver on the market. Check out audiogon or ebay. For now, don't worry about powering all of your channels with separate amplification. Just focus on the fronts.

Third, keep your HK.

AsSiMiLaTeD

that 65WPC on your HK is damn near the 105 or whatever on the Denon. I'm a Denon fan myself, but HK is much more conservative about their ratings than Denon.

Secondly, you need to read up on what wattage really amounts to. Wattage is one of the last things that I'd be looking at...

tonyb

Go with Early B's suggestion,get a seperate amp for the front.
You can get a 3- channel Carver for well under 500 clams.:)

Mike682

Early B. wrote:

Second, for $400 - $500 you can buy a very nice used 2-channel or decent 3-channel amp that will sound much better than virtually any receiver on the market. Check out audiogon or ebay. For now, don't worry about powering all of your channels with separate amplification. Just focus on the fronts.

Third, keep your HK.

Agreed 100%. Keep the HK and in addition to ebay, etc., check the flea market here for a good amp.

HKs are great receivers with very good amp sections. They can also be used as excellent pre-pros. Receiver power, regardless of brand, can't beat an equally rated seperate amp. Hold on a little longer; the HK can and should perform very well until you can get an amp.

FicmanS

I love my AVR-3806, I bi-Amp my 70's Sounds great. I would consider the 3806 instead of the 3805 though, I really enjoy the Denon. Has everything I need and then some, can't go wrong in my book...

MSALLA

Mike682 wrote:

Agreed 100%. Keep the HK and in addition to ebay, etc., check the flea market here for a good amp.

HKs are great receivers with very good amp sections. They can also be used as excellent pre-pros. Receiver power, regardless of brand, can't beat an equally rated seperate amp. Hold on a little longer; the HK can and should perform very well until you can get an amp.

This really says it all. I had quality issues with the only HK I ever had but most people on here seem to like them. I would get a new amp. If you don't have the cash right now, wait and save for an amp.

Toxis

Well, I definitely think it was a smart move. Everyone keeps talking about increase in volume. I doubt that was the problem with the HK at all. Upgrading to the Denon will give you a superior processor so you will have better sound quality. Plus, the amp in the Denon will give you more dynamics and headroom from having a better powersupply/more watts. I used to own the HK 430 and got my 3805. Music was improved dramatically. Movies had more "umph" as well... enjoy it!

SKsolutions

When you hear that relay "click" when you change to multi-zone/channel, you are just splitting the amp into smaller sections physically. It will switch over the am/gain section and output devices/transistors from the Main section of the amp and send it to your zone 2 or 3. So, when you switch to make multizone capable, you take from you main amp section, split it, and just send 2 or more lesser power signals. You can't get more from what it's made to push, and it's a good way to sizzle it.
Keep the HK, grab a used Adcom, Parasound, Carver ect.

jayman_1975

SKsolutions wrote:

When you hear that relay "click" when you change to multi-zone/channel, you are just splitting the amp into smaller sections physically. It will switch over the am/gain section and output devices/transistors from the Main section of the amp and send it to your zone 2 or 3. So, when you switch to make multizone capable, you take from you main amp section, split it, and just send 2 or more lesser power signals. You can't get more from what it's made to push, and it's a good way to sizzle it.
Keep the HK, grab a used Adcom, Parasound, Carver ect.

Dude..pay attention...are you saying that the rear surrounds when being used, are drawing power from the other speakers(other than the extra load on the power supply) does 7.1 not mean discrete power to 7 channels?? If what you are saying is correct then when i'm running in 2 channel i should have the power and current from all 7 channels pumping out to my front speakers. Saaawwweeet...i didn't know that i was running 350 watt's per side to my M70's in 2 channel...wooaaaa..i better be careful i don't blow those puppies sky high.

cstpeter

Toxis wrote:

Well, I definitely think it was a smart move. Everyone keeps talking about increase in volume. I doubt that was the problem with the HK at all. Upgrading to the Denon will give you a superior processor so you will have better sound quality. Plus, the amp in the Denon will give you more dynamics and headroom from having a better powersupply/more watts. I used to own the HK 430 and got my 3805. Music was improved dramatically. Movies had more "umph" as well... enjoy it!

I agree with the above. That said, no doubt going to a separate amp would be the biggest improvement, but when I changed from a HK 135 at 55wpc (granted this is a couple steps down from your HK 435) to my Denon 3806, I notice a huge improvement in music--I think this was due to both the increased power and the better processor. I then used the bi-amp feature on the 3806, which provided another improvement, albeit not as dramatic. When I subsequently went to a separate Rotel amp, I again experienced a huge improvement. I guess what I'm saying is each step will likely give you improvements, some more noticeable than others.

cfrizz

But look at how many steps it took you to get there Chris, & I don't even want to think about how much money!

I'm a firm believer in doing it right the first time, even if it means delaying my instant satisfaction itch!

He has a decent receiver with preouts, so he should just save for a 5/7 channel amp & be done with it for a good long time!

cstpeter

"But look at how many steps it took you to get there Chris, & I don't even want to think about how much money!"

Neither do I!

You make a great point Cathy.

bobman1235

I'm real glad you guys noticed a positive difference, but let's just put it this way.

From the respective owner's manuals :
Denon 3805 - max power draw = 7.1A @ 120V, or 852W.
H/K 435 - max power draw = 1000W.

You tell me which one is capable of putting out more power.

Plus, for the Denon, 852W = 120W * 7 channels. So obviously "bi-amping" with A & B as mentioned before is taking power from one of those seven channels, otherwise they would be drawing another 120W each, right?

cstpeter

As I said, I cannot speak for the HK 435, but when I went from the HK 135 to the Denon 3806, I noticed a HUGE improvement. I will believe my ears/experience over those stats any day.

bobman1235

cstpeter wrote:

As I said, I cannot speak for the HK 435, but when I went from the HK 135 to the Denon 3806, I noticed a HUGE improvement. I will believe my ears/experience over those stats any day.

Absolutely agree - my point was just that, go by your EARS, and not stats like 120 WPC vs 45 WPC. My point (a rare case where I had one) was that those numbers don't really mean much. And also I was trying to debunk that hooking your speakers up to the A&B terminals was akin to bi-amping, but...

jayman_1975

well it's not hooking the speakers to A&B terminals..if you read the biamping article you would see that...it's making use of the rear surround amps that would be doing nothing when one is only using 5.1. So yup..it is giving more current and power to the mains.

SKsolutions

jayman_1975 wrote:

Dude..pay attention...are you saying that the rear surrounds when being used, are drawing power from the other speakers(other than the extra load on the power supply) does 7.1 not mean discrete power to 7 channels?? If what you are saying is correct then when i'm running in 2 channel i should have the power and current from all 7 channels pumping out to my front speakers. Saaawwweeet...i didn't know that i was running 350 watt's per side to my M70's in 2 channel...wooaaaa..i better be careful i don't blow those puppies sky high.

Yes, "Dude", I am. When you change from 2 channel to 5/7.1 you change your receiver's amp configuration.

Dude: "Discrete" in this instance (7.1) is the separate recorded channels/information, not the output devices or amp sections in your receiver. If you notice that you have more power in 2 channel, you can do the math. So, take the crash helmet off now. . . . . .here's where it can get real complicated, and I don't want you to get confused. . . output devices themselves (transistors) can be discrete, meaning that they do not share a ground with another channel, but have a separate element/conduit. So, a maker can claim a discrete amp, when it only has a discrete output transistor, and in fact is not truly discrete (separate) in any real sense of the word. I won't confuse you further, because I know you must be taxed from composing that masterpiece.

So, if you would be less agressive with your flame and asked a question when you didn't understand, you might not have ended up looking like the class idiot raising his hand with the wrong answer.. Maybe you should have been a little more discrete at minimum.