Undocumented workers have rights too?

Skynut

Interesting how they are treated south of the boarder.

Mexico Harsh to Undocumented Migrants

zombie boy 2000

well I found my way over here and thought I might reply (again):

except after reading this (again) I am almost speechless..
how the United States became the poster-child for immigrant/migrant "abuse" is beyond me... unless we're held to a higher standard, if only by our willingness to take in so many for so long --rain, sleet, and/or shine

I mean, this crap goes on all over the globe. I spent a semester in South America studying in Quito, and would make my way to Lima to hear the same horror stories. And refer to France's track-record in regard to migrant rights...
yet big, bullying America is at it again in the eyes of everyone else.

Skynut

Thats what I would say.
we get held to a higher standard than the rest of the world.
We have enough money to help everyone I guess.

I just can't believe this goes on in their south with them bitching about the way they are treated to the north.

It is rediculous. If we want to drive there we have to have insurance for their country and if we want to drive here we need insurance incase we have an accident with one of their uninsured motorists here.

If I get caught without insurance my car is impounded if they get caught they get a warning or a ticket and they drive away.

WTF?

PhantomOG

One of my co-workers was rear-ended the other day by an illegal. No insurance of course. The cop came, wrote the guy a ticket and that was all. The cop told my co-worker that the guy probably gave a false name and that absolutely nothing could be done to him. He was allowed to DRIVE OFF, with no ID and no proof of insurance.

Meanwhile my co-worker has to file a claim through his insurance and will likely pay higher premiums now because of it.

Ain't it grand?

Skynut

^^^Exactly^^^

Life as an American is so fair.

ohskigod

in Jersey, no proof of insurance would at least get your car towed/impounded, but in terms of other satisfaction, yeah, your pretty screwed!

F1nut

He was allowed to DRIVE OFF, with no ID and no proof of insurance.

Should have shot him on the spot!

Skynut

I get the feeling that our government wants the population to grow no mater how it happens. This is why there is no border security that is allowed to be effective, why the illegals are not taxed or penalized the same way we are, and why they keep saying that they are doing jobs we don't want.
Aside from picking fruit and veggies I can't think of many jobs that the illegals are doing that our high school grads wouldn't do to work their way through college.

There is definatley an agenda that we don't know about and I don't think it has America as top priority.

reeltrouble1

Accept it, America is easy to hate. I could say alot of things and others would disagree and we would debate or worse, what is the point.

Lets just find someone we can all despise, yea, those illegal guys, thats a great hot button to push (pssst get someone on this, we need something now, right now), they are the cause of our woes those bastages and bistigies, surely it could not be anything else. Lets get THEM the hell out here, lets find something to define our situation that we can rally around. Yes sir reeeeeeee.

The spinning of American's is a fully accomplished art form.

RT1

Skynut

This is true, if they are sending our attention toward the illegals then it is probably to hide something they don't want our attention on.

We are but sheeple and we follow the heard.

PhantomOG

Skynut wrote:

Aside from picking fruit and veggies I can't think of many jobs that the illegals are doing that our high school grads wouldn't do to work their way through college.

At least here in Texas there are plenty of jobs that no one but illegals would do for the money that they get paid. They do all the hot, sweaty, labor intensive jobs for *way* less than minimum wage.

I think it sucks that we pay for insurance cases like the one I mentioned and lots of other services while they don't pay taxes... BUT I don't blame them for it. They are just trying to get a buck like everyone else. If the U.S. government would stop pretending that border control is the real issue and focus on the fact that we blindly allow businesses and individuals to hire these people there wouldn't be a problem. If it wasn't so easy to come and work here illegally, no one would come. They should be busting all these businesses that pay these illegals in cash everyday, but they don't because all of the rich people with power know they make damn good money off paying for this cheap illegal labor.

I don't think you could walk into ONE single restaurant, ONE dry cleaners, ONE construction site in Austin, TX that doesn't have at least one illegal worker sweating away there.

sucks2beme

They do work their butts off. Do they do jobs we won't do? NO, but they do work a lot cheaper than us. When I was in my teens, that was all I did was grunt work until I finished high school.
The real problem is employers. They grab these guys off of street corners by the truck load and take them out to contruction sites.
If the easy jobs weren't there, neither would the workers.
Honest employers can't compete, since their bids are higher. And many of these small firms that hide the cash costs of these workers are also cheating the IRS by not claiming income either. If you're already cooking the books, why claim any profit from your business at all?
If we really wanted to stop it, that's easy. Send a bus and agents to any new housing tract in Dallas, and go nuts. Fine everyone involved. Sent people to jail. You don't even have to grab the illegal workers, just the guys that
use them. This whole merry-go-round would stop. Who's gonna try and save a few bucks when green cards will keep the Feds off your butt?
But that will never happen.

aaharvel

i used to believe that mexican workers will do jobs that Americans won't. I don't think that's true anymore. I don't think it's a job thing, or a pride thing. It's a wage thing. I believe if the minimum wage would be increased (for the first time since 1997, although standard of living has gone up 6.5%) that more of these lower-end jobs would be filled by Americans.

ohskigod

or, more businesses would be tempted to hire illegals instead of paying the minimun wage. its all about the double edge sword.

PhantomOG

aaharvel wrote:

i used to believe that mexican workers will do jobs that Americans won't. I don't think that's true anymore. I don't think it's a job thing, or a pride thing. It's a wage thing. I believe if the minimum wage would be increased (for the first time since 1997, although standard of living has gone up 6.5%) that more of these lower-end jobs would be filled by Americans.

the businesses that hire illegals have already shown that they are unwilling to pay minimum wage (that's why they hire the illegals!) so how would *raising* the minimum wage change anything?

Skynut

I think it has to do with the fact that the illegals are still spending money here in the U.S. That money is taxed and is comming back into our economy. The government believes this makes up for the money going back to the illegals country and the lack of paid income taxes.

But this is just a theory.

Another theory is that by looking the other way they (the government) are helping keep wages from climbing at a faster rate than the economy can handle.

These are a couple of theories I have conjured up in my desprite attempt to understand why the government ignores the people who want the laws inforced.

Understand that I am not against migrant workers, just the illegal ones. If we need to make it easier for them to obtain work permits then so be it. I just feel that we (America) have a right to know who is here and why.

Demiurge

They don't care because hispanics are a voting block, period.

Dennis Gardner

All we need to even things out is an economic depression like we had for the decade of the 1930's. Our current producing generation holds no reverance for their job state, and no recollection of when there were no jobs period. When there were no jobs to be had, many went to work for the government building roads, bridges, dams (W.P.A.) and basic infrastructure that we all take for granted today.

We would be glad to fight the immigrants for the "right to work" not just for the "right work".

We just aren't hungry enough to do that anymore, and they are.

Skynut

Dennis Gardner wrote:

All we need to even things out is an economic depression like we had for the decade of the 1930's. Our current producing generation holds no reverance for their job state, and no recollection of when there were no jobs period. When there were no jobs to be had, many went to work for the government building roads, bridges, dams (W.P.A.) and basic infrastructure that we all take for granted today.

We would be glad to fight the immigrants for the "right to work" not just for the "right work".

We just aren't hungry enough to do that anymore, and they are.

Now there are some true words.

Anyone who needs to be reminded sould watch the Grapes of wrath.
A real eye opener to those that don't believe that that could ever happen here again.

Skynut

Another point about American workers not wanting to do some work; The guys where I work make between $11-$15 per hour, always **** about being broke, and always want to go home when the only work we have to do is clean up.
I have a hard time sympathizing with them about being broke when they will give up 4 hours of work because they don't want to do clean up. Sweep the floors, clean the head, empty the garbage. All things they normally do during the course of the day but if there is no regular work they would rather go home and not get paid.
When we have migrant workers (always with a permit or green card) they will work until we tell them to go home. Usually.

scornful

It's funny how Fox (el presidente) denies that alot of Mexicans are here in the US illegally. He insists there is nothing illegal about crossing the border undocumented. Perhaps Fox should be asked why they deem their undocumented imigrants "illegal" but this doesnt hold true for the US. I've traveled to Mexico City on business numerous times, but have yet to talk with anyone who can make the comparison without being explicitly told. Most simply agree that Mexico has ALOT of illegal imigrant problems, typically gang related. Most news media ignore Mexico's illegal immigrant problems and the measures Mexico take against them.

Of course most Americans that feel this way are branded as bigots. If we had this large a problem with Canadians, I'd be all about building a wall across our northern border too.

Mexicans working in the United States are a huge source of revenue for Mexico, sending home more than $16 billion in remittances in 2004, Mexico's second largest source of foreign currency after oil exports according to the country's central bank.

MacLeod

The best way to fix out illegal immigration problem is first to crack down on the employers that hire these illegals. Fine them $10,000+ for each illegal found in their employment. Start strict enforcement of this and youll see most of the 12 million illegals over here heading for home.

Second, put the National Guard on the border. This would be perfectly legal and Constitutional and would virtually eliminate the hordes of people running across the borders at will.

Another thing, if these people were honestly trying to come over here and be part of America and contribute to our society Id probably not be so fired up over illegal immigration but this just isnt the case. They are coming over here to earn money and send it back to Mexico. They refuse to learn the language and probably most infuriating of all, they fly the Mexican flag proudly. They are not trying to assimilate into our society.

amulford

here here. I don't care if you visit, just sign the f#ckin guest book so I know you were here...

scornful

MacLeod wrote:

The best way to fix out illegal immigration problem is first to crack down on the employers that hire these illegals. Fine them $10,000+ for each illegal found in their employment. Start strict enforcement of this and youll see most of the 12 million illegals over here heading for home.

I couldnt have put it better myself. You hear very little about this effort though. Bad for business = bad for Republicans. Not going to happen with Bush in office, unless I missed some recent debate on the subject. And surprise, I am a Republican....

masanz1

PhantomOG wrote:

the businesses that hire illegals have already shown that they are unwilling to pay minimum wage (that's why they hire the illegals!) so how would *raising* the minimum wage change anything?

exactly...minimum wage is $7.50 in Oregon. I'm sorry but people can survive off that with all the programs in place for lower income. I say legalize them all, tax them like all Americans are and get this country back on track. I'm tired of hearing of all the school funding problems, in Oregon, when the answer is right in front of their face. We have had a 10% hispanic jump in our schools. I seriously doubt we tax 10% more of the population. I have no problem with anyone as long as they are a distributing part of society in terms of paying there part to be here not just doing the crap jobs allegedly nobody else wants and circumventing the system

scornful

masanz1 wrote:

I have no problem with anyone as long as they are a distributing part of society in terms of paying there part to be here not just doing the crap jobs allegedly nobody else wants and circumventing the system

I have no problems with productive citizens, or imigrants .... but I do have problems with illegal imigrants. People who support amnesty for illegal imigrants should really be trying to reform imigration law, not back door the system. That's what really gets me. Make it legal and I have no issues with it. Just dont start insisting that your kids be taught in spanish (or chinese, french, german, italian, .......).

Demiurge

Why should businesses be punished by the government that lets them in? I find it a tad ironic. Government provides illegals with free education and health care, but we want to fine businesses for hiring the same people that our government welcomes here with open arms? Interesting double standard. Not saying it's right to hire illegals, but read the writing on the wall people.

Enforce the laws we have, put up a damn wall, secure it, and then deal with the problems within the border. That's where you start, but nobody wants to talk about what would actually solve the problem.

The folks who say send them all back are just as crazy. How the hell are you going to deport 11-20+ million people? Not going to happen....

mrmusicman

The folks who say send them all back are just as crazy. How the hell are you going to deport 11-20+ million people? Not going to happen....

Mabe we could build some, "camps".:eek:

sucks2beme

Skynut wrote:

Now there are some true words.

Anyone who needs to be reminded sould watch the Grapes of wrath.
A real eye opener to those that don't believe that that could ever happen here again.

When I was a kid, all the old guys would tell you all about it. I used to stack conrete slats(for hog confinement buildings) onto trunks with the boss's dad who was 70 years old. That was not work for wimps. He didn't miss a beat. My dad could tell you all about the bad years ,too.
If we aren't cafefull, we will be there again. They told us workers were lazy and overpaid. They have chopped wages, trimmed or removed benifits, outsourced like crazy. Yet here we are, no better off. The execs get big wages and parachutes, even if they are idiots. My company is still reeling from crooked top 4 exec's robbing the place blind about six years ago. I bet the last guys before them just didnt get caught. None of them are going to jail.
We will have to change the way we all do business. That also means bringing some of it back here. Execs will have to belt tighten like all of us have.
We will all have to work hard and think harder(work smarter) or we will be the next backwater country. Sorry, I'll just put this soap box back under my desk!

PhantomOG

Demiurge wrote:

Why should businesses be punished by the government that lets them in? I find it a tad ironic. Government provides illegals with free education and health care, but we want to fine businesses for hiring the same people that our government welcomes here with open arms? Interesting double standard.

Two wrongs don't make a right. Just because the illegals got by breaking one law entering the country illegally doesn't mean that businesses shouldn't be held accountable for illegal hiring practices.

Demiurge wrote:

Enforce the laws we have, put up a damn wall, secure it, and then deal with the problems within the border. That's where you start, but nobody wants to talk about what would actually solve the problem.

The folks who say send them all back are just as crazy. How the hell are you going to deport 11-20+ million people? Not going to happen....

There won't be a need to deport 11-20+ million people or spend millions(billions even) on building the Great Wall of USA if we enforce hiring laws already in place. If you take away their ability to work here and earn a living, they sure as hell won't stay or come here in the first place.

scornful

PhantomOG wrote:

If you take away their ability to work here and earn a living, they sure as hell won't stay or come here in the first place.

Either they wont come here, or they'll rob us blind :rolleyes:

OK OK that was uncalled for... but hey robbin here is better than livin there