LSi Upgrade - Questions

Demiurge

I am planning to make that jump from the speakers I have now to the LSi line. I love what I have heard of them so far, but my experience with them has been rather limited. They don't have any high end audio stores with the LSi line for sale around here (Flanner's Audio & Video is the best, but doesn't sell Polk). The big box electronics stores around here also do not sell them, and their set-ups are terrible regardless.

In any event -- the first big dive will be with the LSi15 for my main speakers. I am a big HT guy, but I am also a big music fan and I know I can get some of the best of both worlds with this line of speakers, and these mains in particular.

My gear for driving the equipment is terrible, and I know that. I have a rather old Sony receiver that gets the job done with the speakers I have now. I know that when I jump ship I will need to upgrade that gear as well.

My question is this....Can I keep my current receiver and just go with an amp or pre-amp to power the LSi15s? I'm wholly ignorant when you start talking amps and ohms, and I never really bothered learning much about it because I didn't have the type of set-up that required the knowledge needed to tweak my system to that degree.

I have money budgeted in other interests at the moment, so my upgrade process is slow. Maybe 1-2 'big buys' per year.

I will be building my system around these speakers, so I am looking for the best advice as far as what my next move should be. I'd rather not replace the receiver at this point, but my eye is on a B & K 507 AVR (or equiv.) well down the line. I'd be happy if I could simply get an amp to drive the LSi15s when I get them.

McLoki

If your AVR has pre-outs, you will be able to just add an amp (stereo, a couple mono-blocks, whatever) and drive the speakers well with it. While an amp will provide louder (and better) listening than your Sony AVR, your AVR will still be a limiting factor to how good the LSi's will sound in your system.

If your ultimate goal is to get a B&K AVR (one of the few that will drive the LSi series just fine) I would rethink and try and get the AVR first. That way, you get its benefits with your current speakers and can get the LSi's whenever the opportunity strikes.

Your other option is to get a stereo (or multi-channel) amp with each speaker set you purchase and then when you get the better AVR, sell all the amps or just get a pre-amp (rather than a high end AVR).

I thought my system sounded great till I heard it with a decent pre-amp (rather than my Onkyo AVR with a separate amp). I was very surprized at how much difference there was between my Onkyo AVR and a decent pre-amp. The sound changed (between the AVR and Pre-amp - both using the same external amp) as much as when I went from my old RM-6600 speakers to the LSi's.

Just saying - don't short change yourself if you don't have to. You may be happy with your old speakers for an additional year after you hear what they sound like with the B&K.

Michael

madmax

I went the route of two channel amplifiers as I added speakers. There are some benifits. When I started into 2 channel systems I was set and when I need to sell an amplifier it is very easy because they are 2 channel. They also have the benifit of good strong power supplies and hold their value very well too.
madmax

bankshot

Hey Demi, know you from the gamming forum. McLoki has good advice. You should first get the amp, then upgrade the speakers later. I made the mistake of using the LSis with a pretty powerful reciever and they still sounded terrible. You wont be happy with them unless you have some good power driving them.

Demiurge

Yeah, I figure McLoki is probably right. I guess I'll be worried about AVR & Amps first, then wait on the right speakers to come along and snatch them up. Then I don't have to wait around with some really nice speakers that I can't get the most from. Then I can get the most out of the ones I have now.

Thanks!

polk_audio_lsi

Hey Demi I'm a complete newbie and I'm telling you what listen to these guys for they know what they're talking about. I'd honestly go with an Outlaw Audio amp first before you get the lsi 15's or you won't hear what they FULLY sound like and you'll think they sound like crap. I'm actually going with the LSi 25's for front speakers and the only way you can actually hear what they sound like is for an additional amp and make sure the amp goes all the way down to 4 ohms or it could possibly overheat and fry.

Tour2ma

Demi,

Assuming you do have pre-outs in your Sony (asked but never answered)...

The way Carver amp prices have fallen on ebay since the service center closure was announced, $200 + S&H will nab you all the 2 ch power you need for LSi's. And when folks catch on that a new service center is now in business, complete with all Sunfire Corp's, Carver, spare parts stash, prices are bound to go back up. So odds are good that down the road you can cash in the Carver towards whatever new amp you want.

If I remember correctly you are an apartment dweller and at one time had neighbor issues with your sub levels. If this is still the case, are you really going to be able to realize the capability of the 15's vs. say the 9's or even the 7's? If not, buying a bookshelf LSi now may make more sense. And later they could move to surround duty.

If your Sony doesn't have Pre-outs, Carver made a little item called the "Z-1 Coupler" that accepts a receiver's speaker level output and drops it to line levels that are acceptable to outboard amps. Saw one go for $20 + change on ebay a couple days ago. And I'm sure there are little black boxes out there that do the same thing.

Musophile

Definitely buy the amp first. I bought my LSI-25's first and they sat around in my garage because I didn't have anything powerful enough to utilize them.

Musophile

Do you have a Fry's near you at all? They carry the LSI line in their stores.

Demiurge

Tour2ma wrote:

Demi,

Assuming you do have pre-outs in your Sony (asked but never answered)...

The way Carver amp prices have fallen on ebay since the service center closure was announced, $200 + S&H will nab you all the 2 ch power you need for LSi's. And when folks catch on that a new service center is now in business, complete with all Sunfire Corp's, Carver, spare parts stash, prices are bound to go back up. So odds are good that down the road you can cash in the Carver towards whatever new amp you want.

If I remember correctly you are an apartment dweller and at one time had neighbor issues with your sub levels. If this is still the case, are you really going to be able to realize the capability of the 15's vs. say the 9's or even the 7's? If not, buying a bookshelf LSi now may make more sense. And later they could move to surround duty.

If your Sony doesn't have Pre-outs, Carver made a little item called the "Z-1 Coupler" that accepts a receiver's speaker level output and drops it to line levels that are acceptable to outboard amps. Saw one go for $20 + change on ebay a couple days ago. And I'm sure there are little black boxes out there that do the same thing.

Sorry that I can't respond to each post, but I will get this one.

The receiver doesn't have pre-outs. I bought it prior to knowing anything about good audio, and before I knew anything about Polk. Back when I thought that HTIB speakers were okay.

When I first came to this forum I think I was living in a condo style apartment with my girlfriend of the time and we had some issues with sound there, but we were also on the top floor. That was almost 3 years ago now, and I have been living in a house for the last 2 years that my cousin, myself, and his girlfriend rent. We will be staying there for another year, and then I will most likely move out of the city and get either a house of my own or rent again.

In any event, a house is on the horizon and I intend to be ready for that with my audio equipment.

Going with some LSi9s for mains would be a good idea. I recently purchased the LSiC from P.HUNT, so I guess I have already started on my way with the LSi line. I just thought the deal was worth grabbing right now.

After reading this thread I plan on making a new AVR my next purchase, and then an Amp. The B & K will be well out of my reach for a while, and I will probably looking at a AVR in the $700 - $1,000 price range by years end or sooner. Then I will probably be looking to sink $300 - $500 into an amp. From there I will start looking at the LSi15s or the LSi9s.

The biggest confusion I have is with AVRs and Amps. I am not real familiar with the 'higher end' AVRs, and know nothing at all about Amps as I have never owned one.

Will I be able to power my LSiC as it is now, or will I need to store that for a while? It doesn't matter to me, but I am not sure if I want to unload my CSi40 here or keep it yet for a while.

Do you have a Fry's near you at all? They carry the LSI line in their stores.

No Fry's around here. We have Circuit City & American (I think it's a local big box electronics/furniture store) that sell Polk speakers. Nobody else does. I think the closest Fry's would probably be in Illinois. If Brett22 happens to be reading this, do they have a decent set-up at the store(s) in the Chicago area? I don't want to make the trip if it won't be worth it.

I'll be in Chicago in a couple of weeks for the weekend, so I may make a stop on the way back from that.

cstpeter

Demiurge, I live in Chicago and suggest you check out Tweeter for Polk stuff (either N. Clark or N. Michigan Ave.); I also suggest checking out Audio Consultants (W. Randolph) for B&W and other high-end stuff, including a nice used inventory:www.audioconsultants.com/.

Demiurge

cstpeter wrote:

Demiurge, I live in Chicago and suggest you check out Tweeter for Polk stuff (either N. Clark or N. Michigan Ave.); I also suggest checking out Audio Consultants (W. Randolph) for B&W and other high-end stuff, including a nice used inventory:www.audioconsultants.com/.

Thanks for that, cstpeter. Does Tweeter have the LSi line there? If not, I might pass on them. If they do, how is the set-up? I haven't had very good experiences with the big box electronics stores when demoing gear.

I'll definitely be checking out Audio Consultants.

cstpeter

Yep, Tweeter has the LSi line with nice listening rooms. Both of the locations I mentioned are nicer and more intimate than the typical "big box" store. When I demoed my LSi9's they were driving them with a Pioneer AVR, but I believe they also have Krell amps, which would give you a better idea of what the LSi line is capable of.

You should also check out Glenn Poor on E. Grand...sick stuff.

http://www.glennpoor.com/

Enjoy!

organ

When getting your LSi demo on, make sure the left speaker is placed on the left and right on the right. I bet a lot of dealers have it mixed up. The tweets should be along the inside.

I think you're going to love the LSi series. Keep us posted.

Tour2ma

... and bring your own demo material.

If Chi-town Tweeters are anything like Houston's, they'll be running the LSi's off of Denon AVR's with bigger models on the TOTL Denons. OK-ish demo, but there's still more available in the LSI's than their set-ups will show you.

Demi,
I remember the roomies, but never snapped to the fact you'd moved... or I forgot...

Just me maybe, but I hate seeing anyone talk about planning to go the AVR-with-a-2-channel-amp route. If someone, like you, already has an AVR and wants an economical way to upgrade their available amp power.... different story.

A Pre-Pro and amp separates approach is nothing more than buying these two functions in two "boxes" rather than one.

I (as would many others I am sure) will gladly help guide you through a sensible separates plan over the next couple years. Consider it payment for hours of... ummmmm.... "stimulating forum discussions"...

Musophile

Lol there are many many approaches to your setup. I think that's the fun of it all. Outlaw Audio is a good entry point for the price if that helps you do some research. Here are a few other names you can search.

Anthem
Rotel
Parasound
B&K
NAD
Aragon

Check out audiogon.com. You can look at a lot of stuff without buying.
Also, I think Tour2ma will have some other non component options for you.

fireshoes

Demiurge wrote:

No Fry's around here. We have Circuit City & American (I think it's a local big box electronics/furniture store) that sell Polk speakers. Nobody else does. I think the closest Fry's would probably be in Illinois. If Brett22 happens to be reading this, do they have a decent set-up at the store(s) in the Chicago area? I don't want to make the trip if it won't be worth it.

I'll be in Chicago in a couple of weeks for the weekend, so I may make a stop on the way back from that.

I work at American in Des Moines. Let me know if I can help you out at all. For receivers, we carry Denon up to the AVR4306 ($1999), Pioneer Elite to the 74 ($1499), and Yamaha to the 2600($1299). If there's anything else you are interested in, I can see about ordering it. Also the LSi series is typically in extremly sparse supply, so order them a month before you really need them. Ebony is the only stocked finish as well, so if you are thinking cherry, it will definitely need ordered ahead of time. If you buy the receiver there, then get it during the employee family sales events (one going on now). You will typically get 15-20% off receivers during those sales, which occur 3-4 times a year. Polk's aren't eligible for the discount due to unilateral pricing though. Anything else, let me know.

Demiurge

fireshoes wrote:

I work at American in Des Moines. Let me know if I can help you out at all. For receivers, we carry Denon up to the AVR4306 ($1999), Pioneer Elite to the 74 ($1499), and Yamaha to the 2600($1299). If there's anything else you are interested in, I can see about ordering it. Also the LSi series is typically in extremly sparse supply, so order them a month before you really need them. Ebony is the only stocked finish as well, so if you are thinking cherry, it will definitely need ordered ahead of time. If you buy the receiver there, then get it during the employee family sales events (one going on now). You will typically get 15-20% off receivers during those sales, which occur 3-4 times a year. Polk's aren't eligible for the discount due to unilateral pricing though. Anything else, let me know.

Nice to know, and thanks for the offer. You have LSi speakers out your way? I don't think I have ever seen them out at the Brown Deer and Waukesha locations around here. If they do have them, let me know, and I will go back down there to check them out.

Demiurge

Tour2ma wrote:

... and bring your own demo material.

If Chi-town Tweeters are anything like Houston's, they'll be running the LSi's off of Denon AVR's with bigger models on the TOTL Denons. OK-ish demo, but there's still more available in the LSI's than their set-ups will show you.

Are they running straight off the AVRs, or through an amp as well?

Tour2ma wrote:

Just me maybe, but I hate seeing anyone talk about planning to go the AVR-with-a-2-channel-amp route. If someone, like you, already has an AVR and wants an economical way to upgrade their available amp power.... different story.

A Pre-Pro and amp separates approach is nothing more than buying these two functions in two "boxes" rather than one.

I (as would many others I am sure) will gladly help guide you through a sensible separates plan over the next couple years. Consider it payment for hours of... ummmmm.... "stimulating forum discussions"...

I guess I am confused as to what you mean about having an AVR and 2-Channel Amp being a bad idea. Are you saying that a Pre/Pro, like this, from Outlaw (for example) and then an amp would be better?



Explain Pre/Pros to me a little, never dealt with them. What makes it different than an AVR?

I can see 2 different options for speakers with me:

LSi15 - Mains
LSiC - Center
LSi9 - Rears

or

LSi15 - Mains
LSiC - Center
LSiFX - Rears

This setup will all be dependant on whether or not I nab some 15s first or some 9s.

Along with the speakers I want to get a new AVR -- or whatever, just so I can have good functionality with my movies. I have lots of DVDs, and I enjoy it very much. I can live with standard CDs for my audio stuff. I never much got into the SACD, etc., but I can't rule it all out either. I have enjoyed 5.1 DVD audio with some artists I like.

I will also need to update my DVD player as well. I'm most concerned with the audio right now -- video will come later. I got a really sweet HDTV over the winter.

Demiurge

Back of the current AVR, BTW...keep in mind -- it's old, all things considered.

Tour2ma

Here's a a link to the page where you can view/ download a copy of your operating manual courtesy of Sony. Bit easier to see the ins and outs in its illustrations.

Demi wrote:

Are they running straight off the AVRs, or through an amp as well?

I've never seen an AVR set up with an outboard amp in a Tweeter. No where else for that matter. Just AVR's there straight to the speakers.

Demi wrote:

I guess I am confused as to what you mean about having an AVR and 2-Channel Amp being a bad idea. Are you saying that a Pre/Pro, like this, from Outlaw (for example) and then an amp would be better?

It's not so much a question of good vs. bad as it is good vs. better...

Is AVR + External amp a bad idea? No, but, if you are starting from scratch, I do not think it is the best approach. Why? Multiple reasons really... I just posted on this recently in a couple threads. I know I also posted links to articles on the net on the subject.

I've got a couple things I have to get going today, so it may be a bit before I can dig them up and post them. I will say for now that I think separates lend themselves to a staged approach such as you've outlined for yourself. And right now use of Carver Z-1 Coupler (see earlier post) with any decent 2-ch power amp is your most economical first step...

Yes, the Pre-Pro, such as the Outlaw, would be my preferred route in combination with separate amp(s).

Of the two speaker line-ups you posted, if you have ample space behind you for the rears, say 6' or so, most folks would say go with the direct radiators, e.g., the 9's, as rears. If not, then the bi/di-pole surround types can be a better choice.

You indicated that movies are your source for surround sound. Given that, some will say 9's are a waste as rears and 7's make more sense. I'd tend to agree with them. However, if there's a decent dose of multi-channel music listening in your plans, then the 9's start making sense as rears. So when you do audition the line, include some LSi 7 listening as well. Again here, not a matter of good/ bad... more like better/ best...

SuperDave

You can pick up some decent gear in good shape for a lot less money than new. Watch some items from Outlaw,Adcom,Rotel or other brands you might like. You will get a good idea of their price range by watching a bunch of auctions in my ebay. Do research on the equipment by googling the brands you like for reviews and product info and opinions... Once you decide the direction you want to go start bidding and you will find just the right quality gear at a bargain. I got an Adcom GFA-5500 a couple of years old in perfect shape for one third the price they sell for now. It rocks. Plus the whole process teaches you about a lot of gear. I am looking for agood preamp setup as we speak. Good luck!

SuperDave
Yamaha RX-V992 (Center,Rears)
Adcom GFA-5500 (Main)
Denon DVD-1920
Sony XBR 27"
BrightHouse DVR
Polk LSi25 Main
Polk LSiC Center
Infinity RS1 Rears
Monster THX Cables

fireshoes

Demiurge wrote:

Nice to know, and thanks for the offer. You have LSi speakers out your way? I don't think I have ever seen them out at the Brown Deer and Waukesha locations around here. If they do have them, let me know, and I will go back down there to check them out.

They should have them there as well.

Demiurge

Thanks for the response Tour, I am just letting all of this sink in. I'll probably bump this thread once in a while when I have more questions or I am looking to buy. I really appreciate all the input.

Tour2ma

No hurry my.... friend?

Damn, that'll take some getting used to...

BTW, my audio/ roller coaster/ visitin' wunderlust is likely going to take me to an old college roomie's place just south of Racine this year. Perhaps you can ed'cate on Milwaukee night life one evening...

TroyD

Another route you can look at in the pre/pro if money is an issue....if your DVD player has on board decoding is an older pro-logic preamp with analog 5.1 inputs, these go for next to nothing and some of them are quite musical.

BDT

wodom1

I've been to the Fry's here and I remember the LSi set-up being OK, but I haven't been there in about a year. The tweeter on N. Clark is about 3 blocks from my apartment, though I've never been in there. I'll have to check it out sometime.

Demiurge

Tour2ma wrote:

No hurry my.... friend?

Damn, that'll take some getting used to...

BTW, my audio/ roller coaster/ visitin' wunderlust is likely going to take me to an old college roomie's place just south of Racine this year. Perhaps you can ed'cate on Milwaukee night life one evening...

:eek:

Sure, and maybe a tour of our widget factory.

Tour2ma

Could work... so long as it does not interfere with golf plans...

Demiurge

Old thread, but I have more questions now...

Can the LSi15 be powered by a 2 CH amp in addition to the 5 CH B & K I already have? That 5 CH would be powering the LSi15 as well as other LSi speakers (LSiC, LSi9/LSi7) I plan on having. Would that be considered bi-amping? If not, what is that, other than possibly completely stupid on my part? If that works, would it be worth it to upgrade, or just continue using only the 5 CH amp that I already have?

Just trying to plan the next logical movements like I did last year. SVS Sub and LSi9/LSi7 seem the most appropriate next move for me.

dane_peterson

That would be the definition of bi-amping. Just make sure your jumpers are removed!