First digital projector, big dissappointment

Sami

After seeing these setup at friends I decided it was time to upgrade the old 480i CRT. Now that I have it setup, yes I do enjoy the added resolution (720p native) but I just can't get over the missing blacks. Everything is good until a dark scene comes out, then it is just agony watching the gray picture surrounded by black from the rest of the room.

I guess LCD just isn't suited for a room with no ambient light. I might very well go back to the CRT which has less resolution, not progressive but projects much bigger picture from the distance. This will most likely end up in the bedroom and the CRT will stay in the HT until I can afford Sony's Ruby or similar, or find mint 9" CRT.

moraks

what type of projector are you using

Dennis Gardner

Nothing beats the blacks from a CRT, but I don't like how dark CRTs are in general. You might try some of the newer DLP technolgy to get better blacks and blowtorch lumens all in one package.

XJRGUY

We just got a new Sony SXRD 50 inch and let me tell you the picture is incredible.

Might want to look into one of these babies too.

Good luck!

Sami

50in is way too small, and that Sony has the same problem, no blacks. It's hard to shop around as none of the video stores have totally dark rooms. It's a shame when a scene that is supposed to be pitch black is ruined by gray screen (f.e. the opening scene to LOTR:FOTR), other than that it's not so bad.

The projector is InFocus SP5000 and it does have a great picture on colourful scenes, just aweful blacks (or actually grays). Haven't tried HD yet.

okiepolkie

Did you "buy" the sp5000, or just see it in a store? Also, what screen are you using for comparison?

edit: After re-reading your post, it looks as if you bought it. I have been trying to sell one of these projectors for about a month now(including in the flea market). It is NIB and everything.

I really like the SP5000. It isn't as good as the CRT's, but it does a lot of things really well.

If you really want a good picture that rivals CRT, take a look at the Sony SXRD projector or the JVC pro DILA projector. Both of these will provide excellent pictures at full 1080 resolutions, although the prices are a little high right now.

EricT43

Sami, if you have a totally dark room, then CRT is probably the best way to go, as you have already discovered.

I had a Sony HS10 for a couple years which also had gray blacks. I got used to it after a while, but there's really nothing out there that beats CRT in my opinion.

I just switched to a 50" plasma for a more decorator-friendly room, and contrast is much better than the PJ, but now the screen is small, and I forgot how much I hate the reflections/halo from the screen protectors that are on most TV's.

Frank Z

My Sony VPL-HS20 has excellent black levels, that's one of the reasons I bought it.

Sami

Yes, I already bought it. The CRT I have is not perfect either, since it's interlaced max.30hz refresh rate I could see the lines on light scenes. But for dark scenes it was perfect. I still have them both installed so I quess I could switch to it for dark, dramatic movies. For light, colourful scenes the LCD beats out the CRT (since it's not high-end CRT). I just couldn't imagine the grays were this bad but now that I think of it, even those friends with dedicated HT rooms do not have them totally dark so it doesn't bother that much. But it does take away a lot from the movie.

But I am guessing I will keep the LCD especially after getting some HD material. Price wasn't bad, $950 shipped with taxes (and no rebate to hassle with) and I got an extra screen too. Maybe I'll set the CRT for that small screen on another room where the scan lines won't bother.

jakelm

Did you try adjusting (lowering) the brightness control to where the grey become black? Do you have an Avia disk to calibrate the projector?

Sami

jakelm wrote:

Did you try adjusting (lowering) the brightness control to where the grey become black? Do you have an Avia disk to calibrate the projector?

Yep, I did but even then it is gray. I will do AVIA and/or DVE later on when I have time to tweak.

Ultiman

I'm a big fan of my Infocus SP4805...blacks are great!

Dennis Gardner

Ultiman wrote:

I'm a big fan of my Infocus SP4805...blacks are great!

The blacks are nice, but the color wheel lifespan is too short with no recourse as even the replacement isn't an improvement. Simply a bad design.......... X1 owner here with a wheel that sounds like a buzz saw every now and then.

LuSh

What kinda screen are you using? That is almost as important if not more then the actual source. PM me for details.

EricT43

Sami, just a thought here...if you've got enough light output, you could try putting a neutral density filter on it. That will lower the black level and the white level by the same amount.

Toxis

wow, so you buy an entry level hd projector, don't calibrate it, don't hook it up to HD, don't mention what quality of screen (because yes, you do need to match your screen material to your projector) and you're disappointed with the PQ? No kidding...

If you only plan on using DVD on the projo and don't have any ambient light, CRT is your only way to go. I don't think you did much research when you bought that projector.

Sami

Toxis wrote:

wow, so you buy an entry level hd projector, don't calibrate it, don't hook it up to HD, don't mention what quality of screen (because yes, you do need to match your screen material to your projector) and you're disappointed with the PQ? No kidding...

If you only plan on using DVD on the projo and don't have any ambient light, CRT is your only way to go. I don't think you did much research when you bought that projector.

Wow, whatever personal issues you have, keep them out of here.

My problem isn't the PQ, it's the black levels. I knew it couldn't match the CRT I have but I didn't expect it to be this bad (and yes, I have played with the settings to try to minimize the gray). As far for research, yes I did some but considering the price on this projector and the multiple uses I could have for it I didn't have much to lose by buying it. Now I have experimented with it and it's staying in the HT instead of the CRT until I am ready to buy a better one.

Screen is DaLite Video Spectra 1.5.

Toxis

the only personal issues I have are with the projector industry. It's getting pathetic. There's so much misinformation out there and everyone uses data projectors for HT use. Its almost as bad as the HTiB is to sound quality.

mulveling

A few years ago I got caught up in the front projector hype and bought one of the first Panasonic ae300's, immediately after its release in Japan. I also demo'd a Sanyo PLV-70, Sharp MX20, and NEC lt240. My impressions were similar to yours - black levels were terrible. Additionally I found the projection-chip LCD and DLP artifacts to be numerous and severe. I tried light control treatments and had two different Da-Lite screen materials (white Da-Mat and HiPower) on a fixed-wall frame, calibrated with avia, and tweaked settings like mad, to no avail.

Digital projectors aren't for me. I sold the ae300, and to this day I coudn't care less what new improved models they've developed - I won't buy another one.

I've currently got a direct view HD CRT (Sony KD-34XS955) and the image quality is stunning. Of course now Sony is discontinuing their super fine pitch CRT sets :rolleyes: I guess I could live with a plasma or possibly a direct view LCD when the time comes to replace my CRT, but I'll never consider another DLP or projection (rear or front) LCD TV.

jakelm

Sacrifices have to be made. You cant get a 100" picture to perform like a 55". No matter what you do. So something has to give. Most people get a projector, thinking it will be like a movie theater. That theater has hundreds of thousands of dollars of equipment to get the black levels, color, and contrast just right. You just cant get that in a $2000 or $5000 projector, no matter what you do. Maybe a $10,000 projector would come close, but not everyone has the money for it.

So expect to increase the picture size by 50% and loose picture quality by 30%.

Just my opinion

Jake

Ron-P

...and loose picture quality by 30%.

30%, no way. All I've got is a $1,500 Sanyo Z3 and it comes damn close to the PQ of a theater. Colors are just as vibrant, image is more sharp and detailed, and black levels are near identical. A theater is doing the same, projecting the image across a room. Next time you go to a theater notice the black levels there no where near that of an RPTV.

I'd venture to say you're not loosing picture quality going to a FP if your trying to match what you see in a standard commerical theater. Going from an RPTV to a FP yes, you'll loose a bit, but not 30%, maybe 10 at most due to the change in black levels.

Several years ago I moved up from an ISF'd 46" Mits RPTV to an LCD FP. Other then black levels the PQ is identical, so much so that no one could see a difference between the two, other then screen size that is. I'll never to back to a TV for home theater.

jakelm

I agree Ron and I appologize, 30% might be high. But for me, black level is a major in picture quality. It shows depth (3d) in a picture. It is the base for black and white, right along with greyscale. To me any TV can get a pretty good color. But its the depth (black level) that attracts me to a picture. IMO 75% of the picture relys on black level, gamma and contrast. Out of that black level is 50%, gamma 25% and contrast 25%. Both gamma and contrast affect black level. So if a projector has the black level off, then more than likely the gamma and contrast is off as well. Not to mention the light control in the room. Not everyone can get a proper light control in thier room, so black level is screwed there too.

In fact I am a big fan of Fp, but the control of the enviroment around the Fp can be quite overwellming. You have the average Joe, going from a RPTV to a Fp for a bigger picture, then hooks everything up and says it looks like ****. Unless you get someone who knows how to calibrate the room and the Fp, you will see problems.

Yes, with a calibrated Fp and a light controled room, you can get an awsome picture.

jakelm

More and more you hear ppl saying, "no blacks all grey". Now I dont know about you but I can live with a face looking alittle pink, but no blacks, no depth? The biggest improvement between standard definition and high definition, is the depth, contrast, resolution and black level. Not color or tint.

If you black level is off , you better hope the movie your watching doesnt have dark scenes, it will wash out eveything. Unless you know how properly set the Fp and lighting in the room.

Ron-P

but the control of the enviroment around the Fp can be quite overwellming

Agreed.

My room is 100% light controled and every wall is lined in black. Black fabric on the walls, black drapes in the back, black seating, black carpet, basically it's a black cave. Great for FP.

I also calibrated my Z3 with AVIA and am shooting on a light colored gray screen. All this combined gives out some pretty impressive blacks, I have no complaints coming off my ISF'd RPTV. Are the blacks as good as my old RPTV, no, are they close, yes.

jakelm

Then Ron, with your set up, I dont think anyone could beat it. Wow, the ideal Home Theater. I could only wish when my new home is finished I could add a room like that. But for now, my 55" Mit will have to do, unless I can convince "you know who" to blacken the living room. Which wouldnt bother me one bit.

If someone would have to pick a Tv to accomidate movies as well as normal SD, and sports during the day. You have to put him\her on a RPTV. And thats the problem. Alot of ppl think they can get a Fp and treat it like any other Tv. Soaps or sports during the day, just wont work on a Fp. Especialy if people (kids) are in and out of the house, opening and closing doors. Wife wants sun or lights on. Just a normal day around my house.

adam2434

Agree that fp's aren't for everyone and every room. But, in a proper, light controlled environment, they can give you a viewing experience that no TV can.

Also agree that low to mid price models have compromises. My ~$2000 Panasonic 700's blacks and contrast ratio are obviously not as good as my CRT TV. However, I would never consider the blacks to be gray. The blacks are good enough that I've never thought "that isn't black enough" while watching. Maybe I'm not enough of a videophile to be bugged by it.

Mine is also in an environment where I can eliminate all ambient light (basement). Everyone who's seen it with HD material has been very impressed to blown away, and even more so when I tell them how relatively little it cost.

Frank Z

RonP,
It's you and me against the world brutha.:cool:
106", 16x9 aspect, Sony VPL-HS20 HD-LCD FP. A huge (no pun intended) improvement over my "old" 55" Mits WS.

Going on 3000 hours, probably more, on the original bulb....and it is our primary TV. If it's worth watching, its worth watching on a BIG SCREEN!

jakelm

I envy you guys. I really do. I am into home theater like you wouldnt believe. But unfortunatly I am one of those who has to sacrifice size for usability. I have the room for it (22'L x 16'w x 9'H), I just dont have the (basement) style that I would love to one day get. I have a front door going into the living room and 3 huge windows. Not to mention a kitchen and dinning that opens into the living room. So unless I want to watch all my tv at night, I have just too much light coming into the room for normal viewing. To have a seperate room for just HT would be the best.

As a memeber of Home Theater Spot, I get to read about how awsome some Fp's are and look at pictures ppl take of their HT room. I cry. And wonder, maybe I can paint all the windows black, paint the walls a dark nonreflective gray, get theater seating and sit back and enjoy a beautiful 100" screen filled with Star Wars and LOTR. But then the wife speaks and brings me back to reality.

del44

I have to agree that the blacks in a entry level fp are not in the same league as a good crt. But from 18 feet away, a 100 inch screen still looks big and clear. And the blacks are still really good. I was surprised how good the blacks were when watching the opening battle scene from Revenge Of the Sith. I was taken away with the quality of my Z3. And the good price was a bonus. I figure, that if you have the big sound, you better have the big picture too.:D

EricT43

FP's are pretty cool, that's for sure. I went from a 55" Mits WS RPTV, to a Sony HS10 FP (with Stewart Greyhawk screen), to a Philips 50" Plasma.

In order of picture quality:
1. Mits
2. FP
3. Plasma

The blacks on my Mits were incredible. I mean, with a blank screen coming from a DVD, you couldn't tell if the TV was on or not. But, you get the CRT crap like traces, blooming, and the "halo" caused by the damn screen protector (also an issue on the plasma BTW).

In terms of the overall experience, I'd say the projector was best. Sure, the PQ wasn't quite as good, but the tracing and halos were gone, and the black levels weren't bothersome except on very dark scenes. But I got sick of the unsightly mess in my den.

If I ever have a dedicated room, or even a HT/study kind of situation, I'd go back to a FP.

Up to this point the plasma is a big disappointment.

Toxis

Sony's not discontinuing the fine pitch tube, they only have an XBR coming out this year and they've always had the SFP tube in the XBR ever since they came out with the technology. They are doing away with the XS and HS series tubes in the 34" size though.