sr6500 vs DSL iridium

MacLeod

1996blackmax wrote:

Did you have to attenuate the tweeters a good amount due to the reflections off of the windshield?

Suprisingly no! The gains on my tweeters are almost as high as the mids. Actually Ive noticed very little harshness.

1996blackmax

You my friend, have a very forgiving windshield .

jabcon

Question, many have said that the tweeter should be down low with the mid base while others have said that I should have the tweeter mounted high for better sound stage? If I mount the tweeter on the A pillar and point it towards the mid range mounted on the dash, will I not have issues with reflected sound blurring the tweeter output? In other words shouldn't I face the tweeter towards me for less reflected sound? The mid range I intend on canting back to face me instead of mounting it straight up. Is this best?
The head unit I am looking at is the Nakamichi CD-700II, I like that it is simple with real good specs, I don't like a lot of complications to deal with while driving. How do you think this unit would work with the above speakers and amps?

MacLeod

Ideally, for pure SQ purposes, the tweeter works best mounted close to the midrange but doing so usually lowers your stage. Mounting the tweeters up high is a trade off. You lose a smidge in SQ but you gain quite a lot of stage height. Most people, me included, consider this a good trade off.

And I dont think Im the only one with a forgiving windshield. Kirk Proffit has the best sounding system Ive ever heard and has his firing directly up into the windshield.

Here is a post from another forum by super master SQ genius Mark Eldridge.

If the tweeters, or any other speaker is pointed directly at the windshield, you will end up with severe comb filtering in the signal causing freuency response problems that you can not fix with an EQ. You will likely also have stability problems in the imaging and staging areas also.

What happens is that you hear the direct sound from the speaker first, and a very short time later, the reflected sound, which in this case is probably louder than the direct sound. (The direct sound is 90 degrees off axis from the speaker, and the reflected sound is from the directly on-axis point from in front of the speaker.) This causes a very incoherent wave front, and will degrade the sound quality every time.

Try it at home. Turn on only one channel of your home system, and turn the speaker pointing 90 degrees off from where you sit when you listen. Get familiar with how it sounds like this for a few minutes. Then have someone move a board or some reflective surface from behind the speaker so that it simulates a windshield causing a reflection. It will need to be in front of the speaker's on-axis direction at a 45 degree angle to cause the reflection towards you. You can do this with a large board to simulate having the mid and tweeter on the dash top, or with a smaller board to show only the tweeters response changes.

It will open your ears to one of the biggest acoustical problems we face in car audio.

Higher frequency drivers are easier to control the dispersion pattern on, because the wave lengths are shorter as the frequency increases. Absorptive materials can help tremendously, and comb filtering effects are less noticable to our ears when the initial offending frequency is high enough.

So, yes, a set of tweeters crosed over really high, above 8 kHz or so can be used, with some significant attention paid to the dispersion pattern, and ensuring that reflections are directed into absorptive materials, or at least away from your ears. These tweeters however, in general, should not be used as the primary source for high frequency information. The primary tweeter should still be mounted close to the midrange if at all possible. The tweeter up top can help, but can not fix everything related to staging and imaging issues. Also, be aware that having two tweeters playing the same frequencies, the main tweeter next to the mid, and the secondary one up high, will have some comb filtering effects on the high frequencies, and depending on how low the upper one is crossed over, and the time arrival from each tweeter at your ears, will determine how noticeable it is, and if it will be a good or not so good set up.

neomagus00

hmm... to translate that into normal english, for those that got a little confused (like me, the first read-through):

"the direct sound and the reflected sound from a tweeter firing into the windshield interfere with each other in the same way that the passenger and driver's side tweeters interfere with each other. putting your main tweets in the kicks and a set of supertweeters in the dash still has this problem, but the problem with the supertweets is less noticeable, and the overall effect can be beneficial."

Thom

jabcon wrote:

Question, many have said that the tweeter should be down low with the mid base while others have said that I should have the tweeter mounted high for better sound stage?

If you use a mid in the dash keep the tweeter close to that, not the midbass. You can aim them more towards you (away from the glass) if you like but then you're more likely to hear the near side tweeter and not the other one. If you aim them at each other the tonal accuracy might suffer but the stage will greatly improve. Some cars even fire tweeters forward (into the windshield) and it works. In general reflections are bad but it's impossible to avoid them completely in a car. So figure out what's most important before mounting everything permanently.

jabcon

Another question if I use the Nakamichi CD-700II as my head unit can I plug it directly in to the amps? I have seen on other sights that had the same unit but it was connected to a line conditioner and then into an equalizer crossover. Because Nakamichi already has built in crossover system do I really need this additional unit? Also what is the purpose of a line conditioner? Additionally on site said I would need a frequency modulator because Nakamichi CD-700II was set for the European radio spectrum, maybe that was just the unit he was selling?

Many questions
John

MacLeod

Line Drivers bump up the voltage of the input signal. The higher the input voltage, the less likely it is to have noise induced.

Im pretty sure you dont need anything. You should just be able to run straight from the CD players outputs to the amp. Im not familiar with Naks tho so I may be wrong. Best bet would be to email Nak and ask them directly.

1996blackmax

8 volts baby !

MacLeod

Or you can get an in dash Audiocontrol EQ with a built in 13 volt line driver!

Audiocontrol just rules! I cant wait to save up enough money to get their DQS equalizer! Dont really know where I could mount it. I thought of getting an in dash unit but cant find any with 6 channel inputs. Since I bi-amp and use time alignment on all 4 front channels I have to have 6 inputs. Ugh.

1996blackmax

8 volts is more than enough for me, especially since it was included with the HU.

I thought that you were goind to look into the Rockford processor. That thing looks like it would be very nice.

MacLeod

Eh, not sold on it. For that money I could have the Audiocontrol unit and, as stated, Audiocontrol simply rules.

exalted512

yea, i mean the rockford unit only has 153 bands of equalization:rolleyes:
-Cody

1996blackmax

Did they fix their little noise issues (Audiocontrol)? I had read that they had some kind of internal grounding issues a while back.

MacLeod

exalted512 wrote:

yea, i mean the rockford unit only has 153 bands of equalization:rolleyes:
-Cody

Yeah, for $700. For $350 I can get 192 from the Audiocontrol DQS! So

Still the 360.1 does look interesting at a $400 MSRP which I guess would mean it would sale for about $300 maybe? Do you have to have a laptop to use it or does it come with a remote you can use from the drivers seat?

exalted512

360.2 does much more than the dqs, and much more user friendly.

Theres no wires, no laptop. You use a blue tooth palm pilot.
-Cody

CrBoy

MacLeod wrote:

Yeah, for $700. For $350 I can get 192 from the Audiocontrol DQS! So

ROFL

neomagus00

cody - you want to do a feature comparision for us, show us what the 360 does that the dqs doesn't (or what it does better)?

mac - you could do the same for the dqs... it'd be interesting to see the numbers behind both points of view

MacLeod

Dont have to, Audiocontrol already wrote one up for me!


The DQS is a digital car audio processor that combines three high performance digital car audio equalizers in one compact chassis. The six inputs and outputs on the DQS make it ideal for surround sound car theater systems or when using source units with multiple outputs. Even factory installed systems will benefit from the DQS.

Each channel of the DQS digital car audio equalizer offers thirty bands of one-third octave EQ plus two fully-adjustable parametric equalizers for a total of 192 bands of car audio equalization. All of these filters are controlled in the digital domain for maximum performance and sound quality. Once you have determined your EQ settings, you can store them in one of eight user-programmable memories. This allows you to recall all of the EQ and crossover settings with a simple push of a button.

Key Features
Six Input and Output Channels

Ideal for Car Theater Applications
Thirty Graphic Equalization Controls per Channel
Two Fully Adjustable Parametric Equalization Controls per Channel
Individual Level Controls
24 bit Digital Audio Processing
8 User-Programmable Memory Settings

Like other digital car audio processors from AudioControl, the DQS is powered by a state-of-the-art audio 24-bit DSP (digital signal processor) specially designed for performance car audio systems. In addition, all AudioControl digital car audio processors are designed and manufactured at our factory, located in the rainforest of the Pacific Northwest. The coffee is warm and the weather is cold!

exalted512

Heres a picture of its interface:


24bit D/A

Music sensing remote turn-on

Programable Inputs
-2 to 6 channel inputs
-Up to 20v RMS input
-Channel Summing
-can accept both RCA and speaker level inputs at same time
-Signal presence and Clip indicators

Line Driver/High volt outputs
-'conservatively rated' at 5v RMS

Programable (knob) controller
-master volume/sub level
-Aux input toggle

Wireless (PDA) control interface
-Real-time control
-Your Palm OS (5.0 or better) PDA w/ Bluetooth required

EQ
-Auto Normalization with visual verification of frequency response
-Front L&R channels: 31 bands each
-Rear & Center channels: 27 bands each
-Subwoofer channel: 10 band
-Aux Input with it's own 31 band EQ
-Boost or cut +/- 10dB

X-over
-50Hz to 10kHz
-62 steps on ISO 1/3 Oct centers
-selectable 12/24dB per Octave slope
-HP/LP/BP/AP (50-200Hz LP filter on sub)
-Independent filter control for all channels
-Independent level control for all channels
-Independent muting control for all channels

Adjustable sub-sonic filter
-20 to 35Hz
-selectable 12/24dB per Octave slope
-1Hz steps

Time Alignment
-10' total adjustment
-6" increments

I must admit $350 is a damn good price that unit. Whered you find that price at? Even on ebay it they were listed at $390.

I guarantee youll be able to get the 360 for under $500.

It also offers time alignment. You also dont have to leave the drivers seat to adjust it. The interface is much more user friendly and is all controlled via palm pilot. It only needs one RCA input and you can store as many settings as you want granted your palm pilot has the ability to store it. Even then, you can just transfer it to your computer.

It also has a crossover built in, DQS doesnt. Plus, the dqs is parametric, graphic, IMO, is much better, which is what the 360.2 has. Itll hit every frequnecy whereas the DQS is more comparable to the "low/mid/high" settings you see on midgrade radios.

Thats why I'd take the 360 over the dqs anyday. Ive researched both of these a lot b/c both have the basic thing i wanted, a lot of equalization for my front stage. But IMO, the 360.2 does a better job and does more.
-Cody

MacLeod

Well first off, I dont have a palm pilot. The Audiocontrol has a remote that can be used from the drivers seat.

As for the price, I was just taking a guess from some of the prices Id seen online. I see that Ebay is $380 so maybe you could get them for $400 authorized.

Im sure there both great units but the extreme price for the RF plus the requirement of having to have a palm pilot and the 423,400 features that Id never use are what leads me to the Audiocontrol. Its just an EQ. Thats all I want.

neomagus00

the dqs does actually have graphic AND parametric equalisation, and is more extensive than the 360.2... so, the dqs has a better EQ, though i grant that it has only 7 bands in the sub-100 Hz range (should you use channels 5 and 6 for a sub, as in a 3-way system)... the 360.2 would be better if you needed the whole shebang in one package, or if you needed to have a visual of what you're tuning... you do have to factor in the cost of a PDA, though...

Vestax

Another outboard processor that has an ample amount of control is Alpine's H701. With the controller interface, it can be had for $600 and can be controlled from the driver's seat. It will allow for a 4 way, 3-way front stage bi-amping along with your choice of individual and independent 31 band for graphic equalization or 7 band parametric eq. It'll do both time alignment and phasing controls as well as a 5.1 set up if you ever decide to do mobile video. It'll be as close as you can get to either Alpine F1 status H900 or Pioneer's P9 combo.

exalted512

thats also an excellent choice, a friend of mine is going with that in his car. But at $150 for the 360º, I cant beat it
-Cody

98thumpin

how do i get the dqs cause i want one in my car also is it something any stereo shop can install?

neomagus00

installation is very easy, yes... it's the hours and hours of tuning that's the tough part... go to audiocontrol.com, find a dealer, and go there... some websites might sell it, too, dunno (try carstereoonline, acaraudio, sounddomain)...

MacLeod

I cant find them anywhere online except for Ebay. They do have local shops tho, as one of mine carries them.

If you cant find a local shop, try giving them a call. Im sure they could steer you in the right direction.

1996blackmax

Vestax has brought up a very good example of another processing unit that has a lot of flexibility.

98thumpin

what are line drivers good for? and also im just going to have four speakers two amps and a sub, would a line driver or any of that help, ie eq, OverDrive Car Audio Line Driver,

98thumpin

The Epicenter Bass Maximizer for the bass, what should i be considering, i want to be able to control everything also i want the cool factor too.