clipping volume??

daniel_paul_

I have an Onkyo tx-sr601. How would I find out at what volume the reciever starts becoming dangerous to my RTi8's? I poked around Onkyo's site and did not find anything. This usually is not a problem, but on a couple CD's (Billy Joel's Greatest Hits) I really have to crank it up to get reasonable volume.

Any help is appreciated

bknauss

I left a response in the other spot you had this question.

*Seby*-Polk-

No have danger for speakers with the quality of RTi8. But...don't pass the +5db. No recommend for any speaker.

F1nut

*Seby*-Polk- wrote:

No have danger for speakers with the quality of RTi8.

Are you saying that clipping won't damage RTi8's?

drew spelts

OK, the general rule of thumb is do not pass 10-11 O'Clock anything more is too much distortion. And remember that you amp is running the cleanest at about 3/4 volume. You can look at the graphs if you don't believe me.

F1nut

I think you meant to say at 1/4 volume.

drew spelts

nope, Its the best at 3/4 volume. Just go online and search for a chart with your receiver or amps distortion to volume graph. You will find that at very modest volume such as back ground music there will be considerably more distortion being produced than at above average listening volume. then as the distortion keeps decreasing as the volume goes up you get to a break-over-point. Now for every minute increase in volume there is more and more accentuated distortion like and upside down "J" curve. JUST LOOK IT UP if you don't believe me. I was shocked myself to find out that at the volume I like it at is where the cleanest and clearest signal is being produced so stepping up from 75 wpc to 200wpc for me is almost rediculous because I would have to listen even louder to get crystal clear signal.

*Seby*-Polk-

Yes...it's true...before 0 db the sound (depending the receiver and speakers) its very loud. After passing the 0 db level, start the distortion and dirty sound.

F1nut

You guys are talking about AVR's and their skewed volume level ratings. Try cranking a real pre amp/amp combo to 3/4 volume and tell me what happens.

*Seby*-Polk-

i probe that and tell you later

heiney9

drew spelts wrote:

nope, Its the best at 3/4 volume. Just go online and search for a chart with your receiver or amps distortion to volume graph. You will find that at very modest volume such as back ground music there will be considerably more distortion being produced than at above average listening volume. then as the distortion keeps decreasing as the volume goes up you get to a break-over-point. Now for every minute increase in volume there is more and more accentuated distortion like and upside down "J" curve. JUST LOOK IT UP if you don't believe me. I was shocked myself to find out that at the volume I like it at is where the cleanest and clearest signal is being produced so stepping up from 75 wpc to 200wpc for me is almost rediculous because I would have to listen even louder to get crystal clear signal.

This is generalizing at it's absolute worst. Pure BS. Every volume control on a given unit has a differnt gain. Are you ready to buy me a new set of speakers so I can show how ridiculous your generalization is ? If I set my volume knob 3/4 it would blow the drivers right out of the cabinet. The whole idea that more distortion is present at lower levels is for crap equipment. Actually as a general rule (that's broken alot) it's better in a class AB amplifier (which most middle of the road stuff is) to keep it running in class A for as long as possible to minimize switching distortion. Many good amplifiers of today have all but eliminated switching distortion so really it's a non-factor. What distortion are you talking about ?

H9

F1nut

drew spelts wrote:

OK, the general rule of thumb is do not pass 10-11 O'Clock anything more is too much distortion. And remember that you amp is running the cleanest at about 3/4 volume. You can look at the graphs if you don't believe me.

What you wrote is a contradiction.

heiney9

I can't believe I responded, the whole post is ludicris the way it's written. Plus, as F1 just pointed out you contradicted yourself. It'll be intersting to see where you take this, no place but to go but down.

H9

drew spelts

This is a picture of what I am refering to. This is based off of a receiver. Notice how there is more THD at 10 watts and under than there are at 50 watts. Also notice how there is a huge jump in THD at 100 watts, and it keeps going up drastically. I have seen other graphs that look more like a direct square relationship as they approach the max wattage.

heiney9

drew spelts wrote:

This is a picture of what I am refering to. This is based off of a receiver. Notice how there is more THD at 10 watts and under than there are at 50 watts. Also notice how there is a huge jump in THD at 100 watts, and it keeps going up drastically. I have seen other graphs that look more like a direct square relationship as they approach the max wattage.

Ok, you said a receiver. This graph is specific to that receiver. Also there is absolutely no info about what the graph represents or how the measurements were derived. I'm assuming since you said THD; it's what the graph depicts, but again I have no idea.

Again test conditions (with a single test tone with a simulated load) in no way represents real life scenerio's. While I don't doubt that this is in fact a measurement of something, it's impossible to say what it means in a real listening situation. I'd also argue the difference between .01% THD and .5% THD is pretty marginal, but again a constant test tone with simulated load which is generating this type of graph has no real correlation to a real audio signal with a real load (speakers) in a real listening situation. This graph still doesn;t explain your comment about the whole 3/4 volume thing

Where on the graph is 3/4 volume and you do realize it's an algorithimic scale not linear? So a piano note at 3/4 volume on the knob is much quietier than a bass drum at 3/4 volume on the knob....so again I'm not seeing what your point is. Now if you are talking 3/4's of the amplifier sections rated continuous output then it would make more sense, but you still can't generalize.

H9

Dennis Gardner

I understand what Drew is trying to say with his THD chart of the Pioneer receiver, but I doubt that any of the distortion is audible at normal listening levels. What THD has to do with clipping characteristics is what I don't get about his post.

Clipping is noticed in many amps by the lack of ability to produce bass at the same volume levels as highs when driven into clipping. Basically, the amp clips off the bass frequencies since they require the most power. What isn't commonly understood is that when an amp is clipping, it blows tweeters more often than bass drivers. Tweeters delicate builds can't handle the square waves.

drew spelts

oh about that 3/4 and 10-11 "O" clock I can no longer find the site that explains in detail why this is so sorry for not having the evidence in court today. I guess you had better send me away to prison. The Graph was only for visualization purposes. Sorry for getting clipping and THD confused in my head. I had a 100 watt RMS amp with a clipping indicator and the more you turned it up the brighter the light would shine with each base note. you should be fine with 3/4 volume so if you think you are going to blow your speakers with that amount you either have a Gozilla sized amp or crappy speakers. No I will not replace someones speakers for their own testing. I have however done some complex scientific testing with some 15" cerwins and ping pong balls and a few high tech devices a year ago to prove that Power and volume are not directly proportional and that you do have to double the power to increase the volume by 3db. Again sorry about the clipping and THD missunderstanding on my part and Thanks for backing me and helping me figure out where I had gone wrong Dennis.

heiney9

One doesn't need high tech devices to know that to get a 3db increase in output you need to double the power and visa versa. And I don't have a Godzilla amp or crappy speakers. If I were to turn my pre-amp up to the 3/4 level you suggest is safe for all units then I would be blowing th drivers out and severly clipping my amplifier. You see the gain on my pre is very high and the input impedence on my amp is fairly low and my speakers are of average effeciency therefore it wouldn't work out so well to have the vol at 3/4. I knw this because even at the 11:00 postion the output is quite high. Again I take issue with your generalization.

H9

Dennis Gardner

10-11 oclock is 3/4 of the way to clipping H9. That's the message I think he is trying to convey, not 3/4 of the dial movement. This is also supposedly the level of least THD on his chart.

heiney9

Dennis Gardner wrote:

10-11 oclock is 3/4 of the way to clipping H9. That's the message I think he is trying to convey, not 3/4 of the dial movement. This is also supposedly the level of least THD on his chart.

Well that's a huge leap, from 10-11 o'clock as being 3/4 of the way to clipping vs. 3/4 of the way on the vol pot being clipping. I never did and still don't understand what his point was. I'm letting it go as it's not of any interest to me anyways.

H9

F1nut

you should be fine with 3/4 volume so if you think you are going to blow your speakers with that amount you either have a Gozilla sized amp or crappy speakers.

That's more misinformation. It wouldn't make any difference if the amp was 75wpc or 475wpc. If you turn the volume control on your pre amp to 3/4 of the max it will be well into clipping and will most likely damage the speakers, regardless of the speaker quality.

ward91

i spoke to marantz and they said that it was almost impossible to say how to get the rated output of 20hz-20khz at 0.08% thd he said that it depended on too many things like the input signal, the speaker cables, the sensitivity of your speaker. it will also depend on the resistance of your speaker(s) at different frequency’s and probably a million more things but he said that somewhere between -5dB and 0dB on the display was going to be the amplifier amplifying the signal by 80wrms x6 at 0.08% thd.
so i would say for a longer listening time (iv only had mine sustaining at this volume for about 3hours)don’t turn it over 0dB, if you are in the room you can tell when something is about to blow because it either hurts your ears, smells funny or sounds bad. so when i leave it above 0dB i try to be in the room.

steveinaz

Use your ears, when the music sounds strained, compressed, distorted--you're there.

Far too many varibles to come up with a hard/fast rule on clipping.

daniel_paul_

My reciever goes from 1-100. No negative settings. What sparked my question is that Billy Joel sounds like crap at 58-60. But almost everything else can go above that without noticable distortion or clipping. I then became concerned that there was distortion and the volume was masking it. I guess the Billy Joel sucks and I should just trust my ears. Interesting read though. Thanks:rolleyes:

heiney9

daniel_paul_ wrote:

My reciever goes from 1-100. No negative settings. What sparked my question is that Billy Joel sounds like crap at 58-60. But almost everything else can go above that without noticable distortion or clipping. I then became concerned that there was distortion and the volume was masking it. I guess the Billy Joel sucks and I should just trust my ears. Interesting read though. Thanks:rolleyes:

Probably just a poorer recording than what you were used to listening to. The source (actual recording) can make a big difference on how things sound. A poorly recorded disc with lots of compression can sound distorted even at normal listening levels. It's just part of this whole "game" we call audio .

H9

steveinaz

Billy Joel CD's sound like crap on EVERYBODY's system...LOL, seriously. Especially his older stuff, tinny, bass-shy, 2-dimensional, glaring come to mind.

ward91

madonna has big bass that makes your system distort before all of my other stuff.

speakergeek

I'd say you are clipping when you turn your volume knob up, but it doesn't seem to get louder. Also the sound will seem more compressed and less dynamic. Some times the speakers will scream, that's when your tweets are about to blow.

Tour2ma

Dennis Gardner wrote:

Basically, the amp clips off the bass frequencies since they require the most power.
Tweeters delicate builds can't handle the square waves.

Why is a clipped bass frequency going to the tweeters?

Dennis Gardner

Clarification: Bass drives the amp into clipping territory and once this happens, all freqs start becoming square waves and take tweeters out in the process.

Tour2ma

That's more like it... Since the HF rides the LF (like a carrier), the HF actually "clips" first.

Don't forget the harmonics generated in the process... one of the many other theories.

There's a very detailed "debate" on the nature of clipping around here somewhere.... in fact...
http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25736