Receiver/amp Vs. Pre-Amp

Holydoc

I noticed that a lot of members here own a receiver with an exterior amp rather than a pre-amp with an exterior amp (separates). I have also noticed this same trend on Home Theatre Spot, AVS, and Stereophile.

Is the reason that most have a receiver/amp rather than separates because of the convenience factor or are receivers just as good as a pre-amps? I know I own a receiver/amp because I was new at HT and had no idea at the time that there were differences.

So if you were me (be sure to examine my current gear in my signature) and had a $5K budget (just throwing a number out there, do not quote me on it. ), what would you purchase to replace the Onkyo? Remember we are just talking about receiver and pre-amps, not any other component.

Would you get a Receiver/amp? Which one? Why?

Would you get a pre-amp? Which one? Why?

When explaining the differences please give some real world examples. Sometimes it takes a few pictures and slow reading for me to completely understand so be gentle.

Thanks in advance,

just_visiting

Holydoc wrote:

I noticed that a lot of members here own a receiver with an exterior amp rather than a pre-amp with an exterior amp (separates). I have also noticed this same trend on Home Theatre Spot, AVS, and Stereophile.

Is the reason that most have a receiver/amp rather than separates because of the convenience factor or are receivers just as good as a pre-amps? I know I own a receiver/amp because I was new at HT and had no idea at the time that there were differences.

So if you were me (be sure to examine my current gear in my signature) and had a $5K budget (just throwing a number out there, do not quote me on it. ), what would you purchase to replace the Onkyo? Remember we are just talking about receiver and pre-amps, not any other component.

Would you get a Receiver/amp? Which one? Why?

Would you get a pre-amp? Which one? Why?

When explaining the differences please give some real world examples. Sometimes it takes a few pictures and slow reading for me to completely understand so be gentle.

Thanks in advance,

Alot of us that own a pre-amp uses a receiver as a "pre-pro" and the external amp as a "pre-amp". So the set up will be a Pre-pro/Pre-amp which is a receiver/extrernal amp setup.

I own a Denon 3805/Anthem MCA30. This allows my Polk RTi8 more power thus allowing me to turn up the volume before any clipping. I also find it sounding better. When I bought my Anthem amp the dealer threw in 60ft Ultralink biwire cables for me when I picked up the Anthem couple of days later. By using a preamp (external amp) it allows my receiver to breathe more cooler and not work as much.

aaharvel

it's a price factor.
it's a convenience factor (many already have a receiver w/pre-outs)
receivers have tuners. Some of us still listen to the radio.

Holydoc

aaharvel wrote:

it's a price factor.
it's a convenience factor (many already have a receiver w/pre-outs)
receivers have tuners. Some of us still listen to the radio.

And if you did not listen to radio, owned the equipment I do, and had a $5k budget; what would you purchase to replace your Onkyo? Why?

danger boy

Holydoc wrote:

I
So if you were me (be sure to examine my current gear in my signature) and had a $5K budget (just throwing a number out there, do not quote me on it. ), what would you purchase to replace the Onkyo? Remember we are just talking about receiver and pre-amps, not any other component.
Thanks in advance,

I'd get the best pre amp i could afford. you already got a good amp. if you got the coinage, replace your Onkyo recevier with a darn good pre amp.

Holydoc

danger boy wrote:

I'd get the best pre amp i could afford. you already got a good amp. if you got the coinage, replace your Onkyo recevier with a darn good pre amp.

I agree with that Danger. My problem is that I do not know what the best pre-amp out there is that would be within that budget.

Recommendations? Please tell me why you are recommending a particular one too. Love to learn.

Nelson57

Of course I've got my bias, but I replaced the Onkyo 702 that I was using as pre-pro with the Anthem AVM30, and noticed an immediate difference in the clarity of sound. Speakers sounded richer and the sound imaging improved throughout the entire room. It featured more options than I'll ever use, and it falls under your 5k budget scenerio.

With that budget you have some great pre-pro options, and I'm sure others will have their preferences, but IMHO, Anthem would be a solid choice.

Just curious though, why not go with an Outlaw, since you already have an Outlaw Amp? I've been considering an Outlaw combo for another room in the house, and have heard they are fine products.

Frank Z

Buying a receiver to act as a pre-amp only is a waste of money, plain and simple. If you (you=anyone) already have a seperate amplifier, why spend $$$ on a piece of equipment you'll only being using 50% of the gear? Yes there instances where you could use the receivers amplifier section to bi-amp, but not many people are going to spend the time and money to run the additional wires to 5 or 7 different speakers. Think about it, are you going to gain a whole lot from bi-amping your rear surround speakers?

Bottom line, using a receiver as a preamp is a great way to get into seperates but generally folks will end up with a dedicated pre-amp. Unless you've got an emotional attachment to a particular receiver, sell it here or on ebay and spend the money on a dedicated pre.

A few to look at? The list is quite long I'm affraid.

Amthem, B&K, Parasound, Outlaw, Classe', etc,etc.

mantis

There are many different ways to think about this topic.To start out I'm not a fan of using a receiver as a Preamp. I feel you can achieve higher sound quality with a preamp.But thats not always the case.

Some speakers require more power to work properly. Lsi is an example of a speaker that you wouldn't want to use a tipical receiver. Most people who buy Lsi series are looking for higher sound quality.

Rti series speakers don't require seperates. they can run well off your tipical receivers.
Your speaker package does however require a high end receiver. The Onkyo you own now is a nice receiver but in my opnion way to bright for Polk rti series speakers. I suggest you look into a Denon Avr3806. I feel this is a great match for what you own. If properly calibrated , you can yield great stereo and theater experience.
If you desire a higher end better sounding and more dynamic receiver, try out the Denon Avr4806. It has more current and better Dynamics. Not to mention alot better features.
Denon isn't the only receivers I would suggest you try. Goals are what need to be looked at first. Buying a receiver or going seperates has to have a purpose. If features you desire with proper power to power your speakers, then seperates are not what you want. You want a Feature machine like the Denon line. they do it better then any other company. No one and I mean no one can out due Denon for features. Look at the Avr4806 and avr5805 and learn what features are.
If higher quality stereo and high quality theater sound with no care about features, then seperates are the way to go. Seperates also give you the ability to upgrade to better speakers and retain the same sepperates. You lose features but gain sound quality and much more Dynamics. Most preamps don't have tuners built in. Some do like the B&K ref50 s2.

Mixing a seperate power amp with a receiver using pre outs isn't going to yield top performance. If money is an issue, using your exsisting receiver can be a stepping stone untill you can afford the matching preamp. The only way I would suggest you use a receiver as a preamp is the fact you need the extra power but want all the features your exsisitng receiver has. The Pioneer Elite vsx74txi has one of the newest coolest features today, it has a direct Ipod connection and also has on screen display for it. To top all that off it can fully control the Ipod. Now thats very cool and usefull for people who want to use there Ipod in there system. I would add amps to this receiver if someone owned 4 ohm load speaker like the Lsi series. Owning Rti series this receiver is fully fine. It actually sound really good and matches the rti series well.

Bottom line this is my opnion. Rti series speakers are not that good for music. there not hard to drive but yield really good home theater performance. I think they do a really great job there. I Install them all the time and get to hear them in all kinds of different room with all kinds of different gear. They do well there. Music on the other hand as I already said, I don't think there that good.If I wanted higher sound quality I would go with Lsi(Actually I already been down this road personally)Lsi are the next level of sonic perfection and to be the best sounding Polk speakers ever. but they do require more power then the Pioneer Elite vsx74txi can provide. At this step I'm buying a B&K or rotel 5 channel amp and using the Elite as a preamp.

I hope this gives you some things to consider when you upgrade. You gotta look at all things befoer just adding amps or going seperates.There is no right or wrong way to do it unless the system can't support the speakers you use.

Dan

Holydoc

Nelson57 wrote:

Just curious though, why not go with an Outlaw, since you already have an Outlaw Amp? I've been considering an Outlaw combo for another room in the house, and have heard they are fine products.

Did not mean to sound like I was excluding the Outlaw. I have very little knowledge of a good or bad pre-amp. I am just asking for a $5k budget, what is the best receiver or pre-amp that I can purchase? Why?

Holydoc

Frank Z wrote:

Buying a receiver to act as a pre-amp only is a waste of money, plain and simple. If you (you=anyone) already have a seperate amplifier, why spend $$$ on a piece of equipment you'll only being using 50% of the gear?

A few to look at? The list is quite long I'm affraid.

Amthem, B&K, Parasound, Outlaw, Classe', etc,etc.

Frank,

Thanks for the opinions. I am well aware that there are several choices of pre-amps on the market. But for a $5k budget which one would you purchase if you were me? Why?

Holydoc

mantis wrote:

There are many different ways to think about this topic.To start out I'm not a fan of using a receiver as a Preamp. I feel you can achieve higher sound quality with a preamp.But thats not always the case.

Rti series speakers don't require seperates. they can run well off your tipical receivers.

I suggest you look into a Denon Avr3806. I feel this is a great match for what you own. If properly calibrated , you can yield great stereo and theater experience.

If you desire a higher end better sounding and more dynamic receiver, try out the Denon Avr4806. It has more current and better Dynamics. Not to mention alot better features.

If features you desire with proper power to power your speakers, then seperates are not what you want. You want a Feature machine like the Denon line. they do it better then any other company. No one and I mean no one can out due Denon for features. Look at the Avr4806 and avr5805 and learn what features are.

If higher quality stereo and high quality theater sound with no care about features, then seperates are the way to go. Seperates also give you the ability to upgrade to better speakers and retain the same sepperates. You lose features but gain sound quality and much more Dynamics. Most preamps don't have tuners built in. Some do like the B&K ref50 s2.

Dan

Really appreciate all your discussion Dan. Everything you said was very enlightening.

However to stay on topic, I am not debating what speakers I should replace or if a receiver alone can power my system. I currently own a 7 channel x 200watt amp so power is not the issue.

The issue is if you had my system and $5K to put towards a receiver/amp or Pre-amp (those are your only choices), which receiver or pre-amp would you buy? Why?

BTW...I am a home theatre fanatic. Love movies! For me, music is fine through a compressed MP4 apple Ipod format with Shure headphones. However when I watch a movie, it better kick me in the butt and make me feel like I am part of every explosion or action scene.

Dennis Gardner

I would sell the 901/770 and buy the 990/790 combo when available. Matched set with balanced connections at 300wpc.

danger boy

Holydoc, search on the internet for pre amps... and read up on em. being educated is the best tool you could have when looking to make a purchase. There are many many pre amps out there..

B&K, Krell, Outlaw, Sunfire, NAD, Adcom, Anthem, Parasound, Rotel, Sony, Arcam, Sherwood Newcastle, etc.

most all will have similar basics.. one brand may offer something slightly different from brand to brand. I don't have experience with these.. just trying to make a point that there are lots and lots of brands to choose from. The tough part is finding a store that carries any of these brands, so you can see and hear it in person.

If there is any Polkies in your area that might have some of the ones you're interested in.. ask if they will give you a demo some time. I enjoy having people over for demos in my house.. it's helped changed people minds about what they like and don't like.

Frank Z

The Outlaw Pre is a nice piece and hard to match when looking at what you get for the money. With a $5k budget you've opened up quite a few more doors though. I've got an Anthem AVM-20 and after a rocky start It's been a great piece of equipment. The Classe' pre's don't get a lot of coverage here, but from what I've seen and read on the WWW they are worth looking into as well. Krell and Lexicon come to mind as well for there impressive performance.

tdeluce

Frank Z wrote:

Buying a receiver to act as a pre-amp only is a waste of money, plain and simple. If you (you=anyone) already have a seperate amplifier, why spend $$$ on a piece of equipment you'll only being using 50% of the gear? Yes there instances where you could use the receivers amplifier section to bi-amp, but not many people are going to spend the time and money to run the additional wires to 5 or 7 different speakers. Think about it, are you going to gain a whole lot from bi-amping your rear surround speakers?

Bottom line, using a receiver as a preamp is a great way to get into seperates but generally folks will end up with a dedicated pre-amp. Unless you've got an emotional attachment to a particular receiver, sell it here or on ebay and spend the money on a dedicated pre.

A few to look at? The list is quite long I'm affraid.

Amthem, B&K, Parasound, Outlaw, Classe', etc,etc.

I have just been waiting on the right pre/pro to upgrade to - looks like
the Anthem AVM 40 will be the one for me :-)

Hawkeye

I did the reciever/amp thing. Then went to a straight B&K Ref 30 Preamp & B&K amplification. I'm really happy with the notch filter and the OSD. There is a new Ref 50 out with some new bells and whistles like balanced outputs which I like. That would put you under 5K and leave room for 5-7 balanced cables.

I'm on a Macintosh fling right now for my 2 channel rig and if I was going to do my HT in Mac, I'd be on the MX119 in a heartbeat. List price: $5100. Very impressive piece if you like the look of Mac.

Both these companies manufacture here in the US and I like keeping my money home. Regardless of who actually owns the company. Good customer service from both. Factory support from both can be had on equipment 30-40 years old. Can you do that with some of the other brands mentioned? I'm not sure, I don't have any experience with that. Gordon

mldennison

Holydoc wrote:

BTW...I am a home theatre fanatic. Love movies! For me, music is fine through a compressed MP4 apple Ipod format with Shure headphones. However when I watch a movie, it better kick me in the butt and make me feel like I am part of every explosion or action scene.

given that this is the case, it seems to me that a 5K preamp is a little excessive. it is my limited understanding that the differences in preamps are more about musical subilties and not likely to make much difference for action movies. i would think that any preamp that has all the processing options and connections that you are looking for would be fine for you. it is the amplifier and the speakers that engage you in movies and it looks like you have a great setup there.

jmierzur

Taking into consideration the pending release of the HD DVD formats (here we go again!) using the new DD Plus codec, I might suggest waiting to see if any of the units you are considering will be compatible as is or upgradeable as required. For myself, I am standing aside at this time to let the dust settle before I upgrade any of my HT components.