RIP Car Sound and Performance

Red230SX

Vr3MxStyler2k3 wrote:

I have no respect for Miller and Kriesel.

I wouldnt jump off a ship to save my life if M&K's higher quality drivers were the lifeguard.

Their 1,000 dollar subwoofer uses $80 dollar drivers. And yes, you're reading that right.

M&K is a high end Bose with legit technology most of the time...

The reason why I said MP3 is killing the audio world is mostly the IPod. The IPod is not a high fidelity tool to the majority of its owners. So you're looking at punk teens listening to some **** music thats been compressed to all get out and thats "ok" - so then the recording engineers for the OEM CDs start making trashier recordings than they already are because it dont matter. Its all a trickle down effect...

And High End Alarm Clocks is right, Polk is releasing one, if not released.

Considering a Bose driver costs $3.00 each I'd say M&K is using substantially
better drivers. Also price per driver doesn't always equate to quality, there
are many driver companies like HiVi, Silver Flute and Tang Band that make
superb drivers without the esoteric price tag.

IMHO

swerve

four words.
funky pups for life!


get it?
good

VR3

Ok...

Here is a 1,000 dollar M&K driver beside a 1,000 dollar SVS driver. (Total cost per unit, all powered)...

The SVS has 500 watts, 20hz tune.

The M&K has 125 watts per two drivers, and only hits down to 30hz on a good day.

Not to mention the SVS driver alone cost 500 dollars.

I have a 600 dollar subwoofer, shipped with 300 watts, 22hz tune, 130 dollar driver.

Quality is quality... you figure Bose Cubes cost 200 each - with 4 dollar drivers, and the M&K cost 1000 each with 80 dollar drivers... (and thats paying what M&K charges you, not what the actual driver cost)... Its quite even...

1996blackmax

At least Car Audio and Electronics is still kicking ............................

MacLeod

Yeah, that is my favorite mag by far.

Not only are they trying to focus more on real world installs but they have a ton of educational articles in there. Plus they cover several events.

Road Gear pretty much sucks too. I buy every issue of CA&E off the newsstand without looking thru it. Road Gear Ill flip thru and if its all stupid **** demo cars with amps on the roofs and monitors in the headlights, I wont buy it.

Long live CA&E!

Red230SX

Vr3MxStyler2k3 wrote:

Ok...

Here is a 1,000 dollar M&K driver beside a 1,000 dollar SVS driver. (Total cost per unit, all powered)...

The SVS has 500 watts, 20hz tune.

The M&K has 125 watts per two drivers, and only hits down to 30hz on a good day.

Not to mention the SVS driver alone cost 500 dollars.

I have a 600 dollar subwoofer, shipped with 300 watts, 22hz tune, 130 dollar driver.

Quality is quality... you figure Bose Cubes cost 200 each - with 4 dollar drivers, and the M&K cost 1000 each with 80 dollar drivers... (and thats paying what M&K charges you, not what the actual driver cost)... Its quite even...

I am not comparing M&K to SVS though, I was comparing M&K to Bose. I am
quite familiar with SVS and I know Tom V. builds one killer sub at very reasonable
prices. Even with that being said, I built my own HT sub with as good if not
better components, cheaper. We could argue the price thing all day long but
a company like SVS has to pay the workers, where as my labor was free

If anyone is a true "high end Bose" I would say it's Bang and Olufsen rather
than M&K. B&O really is out there in left field with thier prices!

VR3

Yeah, B&O is definitely one of them. I heard them at a hotel (I forget where it was, it was some hotel we stayed at before going to the Presidential Dinner 2 years ago) but they had a 3-4,000 dollar B&O setup in the "den" area.. that was one of the worst sounding setups... Ive ever heard... They looked real good though. And possibly one of the coolest/biggest cd players/changers Ive ever seen in my life. Played 5 CDs, on a horizontal plane - each CD parallel to each other... was odd...but cool, and big...

You cant really compare DIY to OEM, those are completely different ballgames... lol

But OEM vs. OEM - same price range, very comparable.

M&K is not far off from a "Boseish" stance to me.

Red230SX

Vr3MxStyler2k3 wrote:

Yeah, B&O is definitely one of them. I heard them at a hotel (I forget where it was, it was some hotel we stayed at before going to the Presidential Dinner 2 years ago) but they had a 3-4,000 dollar B&O setup in the "den" area.. that was one of the worst sounding setups... Ive ever heard... They looked real good though. And possibly one of the coolest/biggest cd players/changers Ive ever seen in my life. Played 5 CDs, on a horizontal plane - each CD parallel to each other... was odd...but cool, and big...

You cant really compare DIY to OEM, those are completely different ballgames... lol

But OEM vs. OEM - same price range, very comparable.

M&K is not far off from a "Boseish" stance to me.

I agree with OEM vs. DIY I am working on my own Line Arrays that when
completed will most likely lay waste sonically to anything between 40K and
80K a pair. But if I had to charge myself for my labor.... It wouldn't be cheap!

I guess some of the M&K stuff is bose-ish these days, they used to be a
great company. Personally if I had to do my HT over again though, I would
go for that the recording studios use and just go with self bi-amplified
Mackie Monitors and a DIY Sub and drive it with a Halo C2 and pair of Halo
JC1 amps all connected via balanced XLR.

Wish my tube amps had balanced XLR outputs so I could run them off the
direct balanced output of my Halo P3.

(Oh and the Mackies would just be for movies I still would have some sort of
tower for music). I don't subscribe to little speakers

exalted512

i thought this was the car audio section?? Its also so peaceful until those dang HTer's come over here.:D
-Cody

neomagus00

what, i have line arrays in MY car, i don't know what you're whining about...

brettw22

exalted512 wrote:

i thought this was the car audio section?? Its also so peaceful until those dang HTer's come over here.:D
-Cody

Y'all have had stas longer than we've been infiltrating the forum.....don't try and tell us y'all have had peace.

I personally get irked at those that think because they don't like one product for whatever reason, act like a company is moronic for releasing it. There's nothing wrong with not having a use or like for a product, but acting like you know what's best for a company is lunacy.

exalted512

brettw22 wrote:

Y'all have had stas longer than we've been infiltrating the forum.....don't try and tell us y'all have had peace.

got me there...
-Cody

VR3

Just for the record.

Im not attacking Polk Audio.

I use Polks products as a reference to other companies, because if I told you the "Def Tech Solo" is the downfall to audio you probally wouldnt even know...

Or if the Cambridge Alarm Clock was the downfall to audio itd have the same effect...

My point -

When all the major companies are moving to "Surround Bars", "Alarm Clocks", and... god knows what - you will start to see the big/medium box speakers fade MORE AND MORE into oblivion.

Like I said, your turning MY responses into YOUR agenda to make me look like a fool.

exalted512

i pity the fool

brettw22

Quit calling it an 'alarm clock' you moron......Like I already said, dumbing things that far down is showing your own bias/ignorance. If you want to call something an alarm clock, go to Target and get one for $10.

Your arguement might be worth a **** if Polk was discontinuing all it's tower speakers and going 100% into I-Sonics, but they're not doing that. Are you so dense as to think that there's only one type of consumer out there?

1996blackmax

Here we go.......

nadams

Dude... my alarm clock rocks. It's a Sony Dream Machine. 4 watt 3" driver. Oooooh, yeah. it reproduces that annoying alarm clock beep like no other. They should slap the "ES" sticker on it, it's so good.

VR3

Im sorry...

Let me be a little more "correct" for you - just so Im giving IT the respect it deserves and YOUR not offended.

The entertainment system with exclusive I-Sonic and Power Port technologies produces sound quality so big and lifelike that it is capable of being your primary home entertainment system. It is the first to offer HD Radio™ technology with a DVD player and XM-Ready satellite radio technology, making it a total entertainment solution. Compact, easy to use and packed with renowned Polk Audio performance for rich room-filling 360º stereo sound,
I-Sonic is the ideal entertainment system for any room in your home. and the "surroundbars" of right now are going to have a long term effect, as, over time they may, and when I say may I mean probally will make the market SHIFT. Into more compact, singular solution to 5.1, 3.1 surround sound solutions.

With the entertainment system with exclusive I-Sonic and Power Port technologies produces sound quality so big and lifelike that it is capable of being your primary home entertainment system. It is the first to offer HD Radio™ technology with a DVD player and XM-Ready satellite radio technology, making it a total entertainment solution. Compact, easy to use and packed with renowned Polk Audio performance for rich room-filling 360º stereo sound,
I-Sonic is the ideal entertainment system for any room in your home. and the "Surroundbars" leading the way, not only am I sure if the market turns completely the way the Average Joe wants it to, not only will the general market shift to the entertainment system with exclusive I-Sonic and Power Port technologies produces sound quality so big and lifelike that it is capable of being your primary home entertainment system. It is the first to offer HD Radio™ technology with a DVD player and XM-Ready satellite radio technology, making it a total entertainment solution. Compact, easy to use and packed with renowned Polk Audio performance for rich room-filling 360º stereo sound,
I-Sonic is the ideal entertainment system for any room in your home. and the "Surround Bars" but I think the "Big Box loudspeakers" will start to fade out of style, out of market, out of the affordable mix we see them today.

Its not a current effect, but a long term effect.

But like I said, the - entertainment system with exclusive I-Sonic and Power Port technologies produces sound quality so big and lifelike that it is capable of being your primary home entertainment system. It is the first to offer HD Radio™ technology with a DVD player and XM-Ready satellite radio technology, making it a total entertainment solution. Compact, easy to use and packed with renowned Polk Audio performance for rich room-filling 360º stereo sound,
I-Sonic is the ideal entertainment system for any room in your home. and the "Surround bars" of right now will be the "down-fall", for the lack of a better word, of audio.

PS: People who dont really CARE - can replace this: entertainment system with exclusive I-Sonic and Power Port technologies produces sound quality so big and lifelike that it is capable of being your primary home entertainment system. It is the first to offer HD Radio™ technology with a DVD player and XM-Ready satellite radio technology, making it a total entertainment solution. Compact, easy to use and packed with renowned Polk Audio performance for rich room-filling 360º stereo sound,
I-Sonic is the ideal entertainment system for any room in your home. with Alarm Clock.

audiobliss

^^ That's good!! :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

So, you're saying that the I-Sonic (don't dare let me say 'alarm clock' :rolleyes:) is indicative of a coming shift in the market place, which we know governs what companies manufacture (so they can stay afloat), and so we can say that the I-Sonic (and of course one selected instance wouldn't be sufficient to make such a statement, but remember if you will the Surroundbar, the seeming domination by mp3 players, and the mass of docking stations for the iPod (Creative Audio, Klipsch, Bose, Lansing, etc.) and you do have enough instances to support such a statement) foreshadows the downfall and in all likelyhood contributes to the downfall of the audio realm that us floorstanders-lovin' 'audiophiles' are so fond of.

So the I-Sonic isn't as responsible for this coming 'downfall' as it is indicative of the market, which controls what companies do.

At least that's basically my $.02

PoweredByDodge

You guys need a friggin beer...

re - prebuilt trash in a box

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Most (not all) home audio powered subs are scrap. Cerwin Vega, Infinity, Bose, JBL (sadly, a company I respect sucks at this too), and KLH all make scrap home audio powered subs. I'm sure somebody out there makes a good one. I've heard the Polk PW8 (is that the right model number??) 8" powered sub... it's not shaking the house down, but its a nice piece... good extention without distortion, sounds as if it's producing and effectively using its power output rating, and sounds pretty nice. Last I knew it was like a $150 - 200 home unit -- that's a good price for a good unit -- actually its a very modest price for a good unit, which is even better. Then you look at my old Onkyo 300+ watt 10" home sub. Overheated on a daily basis, never put out anywhere near 300 watts, nor could the driver take it - when I eventually gutted it, I believe the magnet said something like "60 w continuous" on the back of it. Speaker was worse that a radio shack generic 10... made me sick. Then in the same breath you can get a nice car audio subwoofer driver like a Polk Momo (or in my case an MTX Thunder 6k because it was only 30 bucks or so) or a home audio "raw driver" (no box - you build the box) from somebody like Dayton or many others, and build your own nice sub. Had I not already built my sub, I probably would have got one of those Polk PW8's or probably the 10" of the same line... you drop 200 - 250 bucks total and you get something you can be happy with... you go buying **** at Best Buy or Circuit Crap Shack, and you get a whole lot of hot air out of a salesman, and no bang for your buck when you get home. For what it's worth, I don't endorse buying Polk at Circuit **** Hole when you can get them from reputable online dealers like Crutchfield (home and car) or Sounddomain (car) who are both registered dealers. No pitch men, just you, a spec sheet, some good photos, and your own goddamn taste and opinion.

re - mp3's sucking

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Well, I hate to be the one to break it to you all, but the Industry Standard for encoding mp3's (as far as the rip groups I deal with and such go... as well as most legit sites that sell mp3's for a buck a song or whatever) is 320 kb/s Variable Bit Rate, with a 128 bottomout setting. Most, if not all are using Lame Version 3.97 or later. Nobody uses Blade anymore, although I personally liked Blade better. I remember using Blade when it was command line only interface... fun times... everything was controlled with switches, and if you were smart, you'd write a batch file to do multiples, one after the other. Anybody still ripping MP3's at 128 kb/s is either friggin retarded, or they're too ignorant to learn how to properly use MP3 encoding software. And no, I don't consider Windows Media Player or Real Player to be "legit real world rippers/ encoders" -- If you want to do a good job, you're going to rip the cd with something like ISO-Buster by Smart Projects and then encode it with a non-VBR proggie like Blade @ 256 straight up, or a VBR like Lame @ 320~128 VBR. PS - The reason you see many mp3's shared online that are at 128 is because 4 to 6 years ago... 128 was "the ****" ... 30 gig hard drives were "huge" at that time, and space was an issue, as well as processor speed and usage... we've finally gotten to a point where the computers are fast enough and "large" enoug (space wise) to rip a CD the way it should be ripped, losing little to no audible quality whatsoever. But, just because we're at that point, that doesn't mean that I'm going to re-encode CD's that I encoded 6 years ago... and the fact is - how many of those songs do you actually HAVE on CD? as opposed to that you got from someone else, so all you ever had was the MP3... so that's what you share.

Limewire, EDonkey, Ares, all of that... your getting 15 year old kids sharing stuff that's old as dirt that they all have shuffled around the web. If you want crisp clean new material, you get yourself tied in with a rip group. End up being able to get CD's before they're even on the shelf, and they're all 320~128 VBR. DVD's encoded with XVid (not Divx, but like DivX) where you get 2 and a half hours on only 700 megs... then you uncompress the **** with Nero Vision and burn it onto a 4.7 gig DVD-R ... end up with a DVD that's of a quality somewhere between a fresh off the shelf brand new VCR tape and a cheaper quality DVD (so basically very very very very good) in 5.1 surround that's encoded at 192 kb/s straight up. Very respectable for a free movie.

re - killing CD sales

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Digital music players aren't killing CD's ... what I just said above is what's killing CD's and DVD sales. Why buy it when you can make it almost as good or just as good from home. I'd bet of you took some sales surveys you would see that as new music CD and new movie DVD sales have plummeted to nothingness, that blank CD-R and DVD-R sales have skyrocketed... along with the sale of cheap and reliable burners by companies like Plextor, Teac, Toshiba, and NEC. ahem... Lite-On sucks.

re - little speakers

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"big sound from little speakers" bothers me... little speakers in general bother me... I don't mean small bookshelfs with 5 inch drivers, but these friggin 2" single driver speakers with little tunnels and crap inside the cube, they make me want to go on a killing spree.

Not to mention that turkey consumers who don't know their asses from a hole in the ground buy into the fake out -- many companies are making small cubes with 2" drivers... little "baby satellites", but they're not engineered like Bose speakers are (and that doesn't mean I like Bose engineering... I'm just saying that there is SOME friggin thought that goes into their stuff)... instead they're just cubes with an open interior and a 2" driver... so people think, "oh this will sound like a Bose because it looks like a Bose. Ya... ok. I know a couple of sisters who look virtually identical, but one's a freak and the other's a prude... I won't tell you which one likes cars and money more than the other, but you get what you pay for (provided you're not buying Bose).

re - the end of the 'great' headunits

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Horseshit - you wan't a good deck, an SQ comp quality deck? GO BUY ONE. McIntosh and Nakamichi (spelling) both make SICK SQ decks that have very spartan controls, but wickedly robust and impressive specifications. No bells and whistles, just the puritan missionary style audio reproduction that we all desire... but nobody wants to pay a grand or 2 grand for a deck... no, instead we'll sit here and ****, myself included, that the mainstream 250 to 500 dollar decks don't have "all the nice features that we really want" -- well you outgrew your training wheels, you outgrew your bicycles, and now you're drivin cars and motorcycles... which cost a lot more than bicycles... so get over it. Either live with the fact that you can't afford / can't justify spending that kind of money on a "good" deck, or suck it up and buy one. Me, I'll just sit here and accept the fact that I can't dump that kind of coin.

re: chrome baskets and neon blue flames

---

"All Bling - No Sing" is a terrible thing... but "Bling AND Sing" is a good thing.

Now I have to get back to friggin class... then I'm going to go to the bathroom and take a big dump.

MacLeod

MacIntosh makes automotive head units?!?!?!

Man oh man! I gotta check those out!

I keep hearing though that Nak is kinda crap nowadays with really shoddy build quality. Dont know for a fact, just thru the grapevine.

exalted512

nak got bought out, theyre arent what they used to be
-Cody

1996blackmax

They have been making them for a while. They are usually no frills though. Great guts without all of the processing stuff though.

Thom

MacLeod wrote:

Road Gear pretty much sucks too. I buy every issue of CA&E off the newsstand without looking thru it. Road Gear Ill flip thru and if its all stupid **** demo cars with amps on the roofs and monitors in the headlights, I wont buy it.

That's dead, too. You didn't hear? I think it was announced a few months ago. They put out all of two (maybe three?) issues under the new name and then gone...

I always liked Car Stereo Review because they used to give a "SoundCheck" of every car featured (and they gave us our first feature). But then they turned into Mobile Entertainment and started running lots of weak ****, and eventually turned into Road Gear. But don't forget that CA&E ran about a year's worth of "Unique" cover cars and other features...

Greg Peters

McIntosh h/u...to see some of the McIntosh audio products follow this link-

http://www.ralphsradio.com/general.asp?id=665

Local store, no prices on product in displays. Extremely pricey, though. No prices on website because "if you have to ask..."

I've read a few reviews, ZERO noise in system, ultimate SQ. OEM in some new Subarus and the Ford's new GT40-type high end beast. Makes the $650 US list for Alpine's cheapest 2006 h/u (with 4v pre-outs) a bargain in comparison.

I think I'll stick to my '03 model, thanks.

MacLeod

Thom wrote:

That's dead, too. You didn't hear? I think it was announced a few months ago. They put out all of two (maybe three?) issues under the new name and then gone...

I always liked Car Stereo Review because they used to give a "SoundCheck" of every car featured (and they gave us our first feature). But then they turned into Mobile Entertainment and started running lots of weak ****, and eventually turned into Road Gear. But don't forget that CA&E ran about a year's worth of "Unique" cover cars and other features...

Road Gear is going too?!? Good grief, what the hell is happening?

Mobile Entertainment still did the "sound check" on most systems reviewed which I thought was a great feature and wish CA&E would do it too.

Man, I hate to hear that tho. They were only bi-monthly and only half of those were any good but still better than CS&P and PAS.

Damn, I hope CA&E can keep afloat! Its gonna suck not having any car audio mags.

What I dont understand is how magazines like "Walking" or "Quilt Knitters Monthly" can keep on churning out issue after issue but there is no market for it in car audio.