How much tube power for LSi15's?

mulveling

Was wondering how many watts a tube amp should provide to properly power the LSi15? I'll most likely be using a powered sub to handle bass. I know a LOT of power is recommended with SS amps (200 Watts); assuming one can get away with less tube power, what's a ballpark number there?

My dilemma is that I've currently got these components:
Denon DVD2910
Denon 3805 receiver
Outlaw M200 x2
LSi15
Hsu SFT2
Meridian G08 (used in my reference headphone system)
Sugden Headmaster preamp/headamp (was used in a headphone system but not anymore)

..and of course I want a better 2ch speaker system I've been selling a LOT of stuff so I should have a nice chunk of cash to play with. Obviously speaker upgrades are being considered (and auditioned), but I could also upgrade the preamp/power amp/sub now and upgrade to new speakers a little later. I'd like to buy quality components I'll (theoretically) keep for a while rather than cheaper incremental upgrades. In that latter scenario (amp first), I would need something that could power the LSi's. Tube gear has proven to be my favorite with high end headphones, so it would be nice if I could nab something like this from audiogon to try:

http://www.caryaudio.com/products/audio/sli80.shtml

How well would that power the LSi's? At that price I would hope it would sound better than the M200s...

Early B.

I'm guessing a minimum of 60 watts. Of course, the general cost of tube amps increase considerably once you get beyond 60 watts. I had a 150 wpc SS amp and my 60-watt tube amp is just as powerful. Depends also on the size of your room and how loud you play them.

Is there an audio store in your area that will allow you to audition a tube amp in your home?

Airplay355

Why not get a tube pre and an SS amp?

organ

Airplay355 wrote:

Why not get a tube pre and an SS amp?

That's what I would do. I was impressed the first time I heard my LSi9 on tubes but realized that some of the excitement was gone when running a tube amp with my LSi. Maybe I need more power. My amp is EL34 based outputting 35w/ch.

I gave it another shot last night and earlier today. Couldn't get me groovin so the Klipsch are back.

Now, LSi with a tube pre/ss amp is a different story. It's one lovely combination.

scottyf

I have a combination that is just wonderful. I used to run my tubed Counterpoint Preamp with a solid state Perreaux 2150B (with upgraded caps and resisters). Based on all my listening tests (I bought older stuff to get the good stuff at reasonable prices), this combo was controlled in the bottom end, sweet on the top and had a wonderful soundstage. I had heard better, when I was running my speakers bi-amped with a Moscode 600 handling the upper frequencies, but this set up was very close.

When I got my Lsi15's, it was to replace my 15tl's. Unfortunately, I live in an apartment and couldn't get the 15tl's far enough away from my TV even with bucking magnets installed. I had heard the buzz and with no dealer in town, I ordered them from Crutchfields.

Once broken in, the LSi's were wonderful. They were more linear from top to bottom, less colored and even better, they didn't cause purple edges on my TV. I was very happy.

I told you all this to set up the rest of my story. About a month after I had gotten the LSi15's, a friend came over so that I could show them off. He brought an amp he wanted to show me. We listened to my system with the Perreaux in it and he admitted that it was one of the best rigs he'd ever heard. Then we put his amp in place of the Perreaux and listened. I was floored. It made my Perreaux sound gray, grainy and bland. This is the amp I had settled on after 20 years of listening!

His amp had so much more color and dynamics than the Perreaux. It was like tubes on steroids! The amp? A modifed Counterpoint SA-12. It was so good, I picked up a SA-100 on ebay for $400 and sent it off to Alta Vista Audio to have it modified. At the same time I sent my preamp in as well.

I got them back and they took a while to really break in. I rolled a few tubes and found the right combo. Then I sold off all of my backup stereo equipment -- all of it. It was that much better than anything I'd ever owned before! My system before the Alta Vista stuff was about equal to my headphone rig (Melos Sha Reference/Sennheiser 580 w/ Stephan Art cables) but the new stuff was so much better, I just don't listen to headphones anymore.

It's all subjective, of course. All I know is that I'm off the stereo-go-round for good now!

I would suggest checking into Mike Elliott's mods. His amps (and preamps) just ROCK! His link:
http://www.altavistaaudio.com/

mulveling

Thanks for the input, all.
To be clear I have been considering the tube pre/solid power combo - I just wanted to gauge whether all an tube poweramp or integrated was feasible. With my current gear the details are too etched, notes are lacking body, and overall there's a slight harshness to the sound - not to a large degree, but obvious when compared to the "reference" rigs I've heard (my friend's $20K Legacy Sig III system, and my G08/L3000 based headphone system (way way better than a recabled hd580 )). From experience I'd guess that getting tubes somewhere in the chain (and getting better SS gear for what's left) would help a lot with this.

scottyf, I looked at your link, those modded counterpoint hybrid amps (and the tube pres) look awesome! There's a couple sweet looking modded NP-220's on audiogon and ebay, but I'm wondering how one could verify that they've indeed been modded by altavista audio as claimed. The ebay seller's internal pics don't really match up with altavista's mode pics. The audiogon seller has no feedback and only take money order (forget that).

scottyf

The modifications have gone through a couple of iterations. After looking more closely at the one on Ebay, it looks to me like one of his first mods.

http://www.altavistaaudio.com/NP100_Board_Versions.html

Probably sounds good, but with the later mods you get away from the 6dj8 and into the 6sn7 -- and in the new circuit, they are supposed to last upwards of 5 years before replacing. I would probably hold out for one of the later ones.

I did see another amp that would fill your needs nicely -- a moscode 600 on audiogon. I used to use this amp with my Freid Valhalla system (by itself and bi-amped with a Perreaux 2150b on bottom) and it sounds really nice. More tubey sounding than the Counterpoint I have and more romantic. Very powerful and musical.

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstube&1140869524

I only paid around $600 for mine back in the '90's, but you really don't see them for sale that often because they sound so nice. George Kaye is still in business (and a really awsome dude!) and in fact, has offered a new Moscode amp for around $5k.

Anyway, if it was my money, based on my experience with my current amp, I would go with the Aria if I could swing it, and a modded Counterpoint (SA-12, SA-100, SA-20...not the original Natural Progression) if I couldn't. You know how it sounds about 12 rows back from the symphony? While I'm not saying my stereo is the equivalent of that, I get closer to that feeling in my current setup than any I've owned before (and that includes my '63 Quads on a CJ PV5 and a Moscode 600!)

BTW, if you've never heard the difference a Stephan Art cable can make, don't knock it. I have also owned a couple of Stax cans/amps and didn't enjoy them as much as the Sennheiser/Stephan Art/modified Melos Sha Reference with white labled Ampex 7308's/Pioneer AX-10. That said, I was considering upgrading to the 650's before I heard the modified amp and preamp, and now I just don't want to mess with it. I'm even selling the Melos to a buddy of mine as his main system's preamp.

Just my thoughts....Man! I'm long winded!

mulveling

6sn7 good - I've already got a stash of nice NOS 6sn7's.

I have owned the Equinox cable, used it with the hd580, hd600 and hd650, with several different headphone amps (though not that Melos, which looks nice) Also had the Equinox cable for the AKG K1000. It makes the hd580 sound like the hd600, which is admittedly a nice upgrade. However, it wasn't nearly a large enough upgrade to get it close to my favorite headphones (L3000). I ended up liking the Cardas cable best on the 580/600 because it smooths out the midrange. The 650 is a better headphone than the 580/600, quite a bit more than the difference a cable makes. It's also more sensitive to cable swaps; the one I liked best on it was the Zu Mobius.

Thanks for all your help!

halo

Check out McAlister Audio The PP150S is 75 x 2 and, IMHO, for the price it's hard to beat: review. Best of luck with your search

scottyf

A few things that made differences to my system:

Musical Concepts SuperConnect IV throughout. I had these 'cause they were cheap, but they just kept beating the other stuff I owned by making the music come alive. Nothing spectacular, but always honest.
Alphacore Goertz MI2 speaker wire. It beat out Audioquest Midnight and Slate as well as Kimber 8TC (shotgun and regular).

I rolled a lot of tubes and this is what I came up with:

Counterpoint 3000 -- used the AAA tube that came with the power supply upgrade (still trying to figure out what it is...) and white labled USN CEP Amperex 7308's. This tube is head and shoulders above anything else I put in the preamp (Ampy white, orange and green 7308, Ampy white and d-getter 6922, Ampy BB, white, orange globe, a-frame 6DJ8, Siemens white 7308 and 6922 RCA lables, Matsushita 6922, Sovatek early and late 6922, EI 6922 '70s).

Counterpoint NP-100 -- favorite was the '52 Sylvania 6sn7. The two other I liked but were not as balanced or refined were the Sylvania 6sn7W (incredibly quick and incisive, super clean, but not enough bass) and the KenRad Blackglass 6sn7 (very similar to the '52, but not as refined sounding.)

Just wanted to let you know what the synergy was that makes my system go. And I'm glad you have an accurate idea of how my cans sound so that you can get a feeling for how much better my current rig sounds.

Have fun!

scottyf

peersool,
What mod do you have for the 15tl? I sold my pair to a close friend before I got my LSi15's, and he would probably be interested.....

mulveling,
You aren't by any chance gonna be in San Antonio anytime soon? If you were, I be happy to let you audition my system.....

scottyf

Spotted a couple of Counterpoint SA-12's for you on Ebay, mulveling.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Counterpoint-SA-12-Tube-Hybrid-Amplifier_W0QQitemZ5854230073QQcategoryZ39783QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.com/Counterpoint-SA-12-SA12-mint-with-NOS-amperex-tubes_W0QQitemZ5855349392QQcategoryZ39783QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

mulveling

scottyf, thanks again for all your help!
Unfortunately I live in Marietta GA - far from San Antonio - and I hate hate HATE travel Thanks for the offer though

fshan

So if I use a modded sa220 with sda's I would need someway to make the speaker commons common with each other. And could this be done?