2008 Dodge Challenger

Tour2ma

Foreign, especially Asian, still holds an edge in initial quality.

But Domestic does still hold the edge in recalls...

EDIT: How is Consumer Reports not real world?

Mike682

Tour2ma wrote:

EDIT: How is Consumer Reports not real world?

Quote from CR's website regarding their most recent "reliability" data:

"The survey, conducted in the spring of 2004, drew a record 810,000 responses from subscribers to Consumer Reports and ConsumerReports.org. Ours is the largest survey of its kind to gauge automotive reliability. We ask owners to tell us about serious problems they have experienced with their cars, vans, SUVs, or trucks during the preceding 12 months. The responses allow us to calculate the problem rates covered here and to predict new-car reliability."

Surveys are only handed out to subscribers (not a representative sample), survey asks to report serious problems (a leading survey question), serious is not well-defined (at least not in this web description, hopefully it is in the actual survey), etc...

This survey description only tells me the following:

Only the people who subscibe to CR or CR.org, who decided to answer the survey, who are told (suggested) to concentrate on serious problems...had x amount of problems with their car. Now this is assuming the respondent's answers are true....

MacLeod

Well its been my experience that the Consumer Reports ratings and JD Power ratings are usually pretty close to each other.

I feel confident in CR's ratings and use their webiste often whenever considering a purchase.

disneyjoe7

Tour2ma wrote:

EDIT: How is Consumer Reports not real world?

Because he works for a Domestic car dealer his glasses are tinted some.

That Monte wasn't my only Chevy experience, I could have been a certified mechanic working for a dealership but I choose working on Electronics landing a job with BellSouth as an Electronic Technician, but I have worked on / built cars in my life so I stand behind my Chevy sucks statement(s).

SDA SRS 1.2

Consumer Reports lost my confidence in autos when in 1993 they reported that the full sized rear wheel drive GM sedans had an anemic 180 HP V-8 but when GM replaced this engine the following year with the Corvette LT1 in these vehicles and increased the HP to 260, Consumer Reports failed to acknowledge this and still complained about "the anemic 180 HP V-8". I also remember back in the late 70's during the receivers power wars when they said 100 watts per channel was "too much"! I do think they give great reviews on toothbrushes and toasters.

Robbie

Tour2ma

Well, you can quibble with anyone's individual reviews of any new vehicle. Does CR have a hidden automotive agenda? Maybe, but I'm less suspicious of them since they take no ads. Same is not true of the survey...

Agree that the sampling is not scientific, but were you to offer a statistician 800,000+ pieces of data, he'd react like a Polkie being offered NIB 1.2tl's for a dollar. Numbers that size establish normality to a great degree.

I've participated in many of these surveys over the past 20 years or so. Now with them on-line, it's easier than ever to participate. Hard copies are also mailed, so the non-computer age folks can still participate.

The survey asks you what you now own (limit is three vehivcles, I think), are you the principle driver, how is the vehicle used, annual miles driven, etc. Then it delves into how well satisfied you are with this and that aspect (body integrity, handling, acceleration, etc.), would you buy again, etc., etc.

As for the emphasizing only major issues in the repairs section, I'm not even sure why the web-site says that. As I remember the most recent survey, it starts by asking if you've ever had work done in an area of the vehicle, e.g., drive train, electrical, A/C, etc. Then it goes into extent of repair, satisfaction with repair, etc. I see no bias in that since it is asked of all areas of all models. If there is insufficient data on a particular model, no repair rating is given.

EDIT: ... and yes, I bought their CR Best Buy toaster, and I love it.

cmy330go

Just wanted to say that all my comments are based on personal experience. Not stuff I have read. I have owned more than my fair share of cars and have driven WAY more than my fair share, due to having numerous connections at dealerships. Autos are probably the only thing I'm more fanatical about than audio.

I agree that maintenance plays a huge roll in the lifespan of a vehicle. However there are many things that general maintenance does not take care of. One thing that comes to mind is that all of the domestic cars that I have owned and driven that had 40k miles or more start to get an overall loose and sloppy feel to them, both inside and out. I would assume much of this is due to more lenient tolerances during the build process. As many know the more slack you have in a joint when something is built the faster it will wear. The day I sold my BMW it had 77k miles on it and honestly still felt as tight as a new one. And as I said before my wife's Lexus at 137k still drives like new. I can't say that of any high mileage American car I have driven.

I do agree that the quality difference between American and foreign car companies is closing. But the Big 3 still have quite a ways to go. For example next time you have a chance, take a peak at how uneven many of the body panels are on many American models, or how large that gaps between panels are. Last year at the Chicago auto show my friends and I were noticing this problem on many models. Some I swear were bad enough you could almost check the oil without opening the hood.

OK.....I had more to say but I have to go.

Later!
Dave

Mike682

Tour2ma wrote:

Agree that the sampling is not scientific, but were you to offer a statistician 800,000+ pieces of data, he'd react like a Polkie being offered NIB 1.2tl's for a dollar. Numbers that size establish normality to a great degree.

Agreed with one side note about normality: as long as the data come from a random sample where everyone has an equal chance of being selected; My question about their sampling method is the fact that they only sample CR subscribers. I know (we all know) there are many, many more car owners out there than just CR subscribers. As a result, they leave out a huge sample.

I actually like CR for their ratings on smaller things like Digicams, household appliances, etc. I think they do a really good job with those items.

CR is very favorable to Polk..they gave Polk very good ratings. So, at least we know they got that right..

All the best,
Mike

MacLeod

I dont see anything wrong with that. Do CR subscibers drive differnt cars than the rest of us?

They drive the same Chevys, Fords and whatever that we all do. 800,000 people is 800,000 people.

Mike682

MacLeod wrote:

I dont see anything wrong with that. Do CR subscibers drive differnt cars than the rest of us?

They drive the same Chevys, Fords and whatever that we all do. 800,000 people is 800,000 people.

Yep, they drive the same cars...but a researcher who is interested in the general public opinion regarding cars would want to include all samples, not just the people who subscribe to CR. The 800,000 people in the sample are actually a group of self selected people who subscribed to CR. Are they different on average than a person who did not subscribe?? What are they more likely to report as a "serious" problem??

Don't get me wrong, CR is very informative. They do offer a lot of essential information that is great to have. But like everyone else they do have some limitations..

Mike

MacLeod

I hear ya man but no test is going to be 100% perfect. The test isnt covering the owners but rather their cars and while its true theyre all identical people but 800,000 random people off the street wouldnt be either. Maybe some take good care of their cars and some dont. You can never be sure.

Either way, 800,000 people is a big enough sample that I guarantee you that their results would equal the most scientific test.

ND13

.....

F1nut

That Dodge is damn HOT!!!


BTW, Have you ever seen the bill to fix a Beemer, Benz, etc??? That'll make you think twice before buying one.

cmy330go

F1nut wrote:

BTW, Have you ever seen the bill to fix a Beemer, Benz, etc??? That'll make you think twice before buying one.

Yea, there is no denying they are more expensive to repair. But so far the only repair I have had to make on one of my foreign cars was an O2 sensor for the wife's ES300 at 130k. I have spent way more money fixing crap on the domestics that I have owned. Not to mention lost TONS more money due to crappy resale values. So far, for me...buying from overseas has been a much better move financially.

Have a good weekend all!
Dave

disneyjoe7

Mike682 wrote:

Yep, they drive the same cars...but a researcher who is interested in the general public opinion regarding cars would want to include all samples, not just the people who subscribe to CR. The 800,000 people in the sample are actually a group of self selected people who subscribed to CR. Are they different on average than a person who did not subscribe?? What are they more likely to report as a "serious" problem??

Don't get me wrong, CR is very informative. They do offer a lot of essential information that is great to have. But like everyone else they do have some limitations..

Mike

Isn't CR look at any public reports from car manufacture? So their reports have some input from this also, not sure but why couldn't do that?

disneyjoe7

Noel,

I will be back.

Merry Christmas

Steve

MacLeod

cmy330go wrote:

Yea, there is no denying they are more expensive to repair. But so far the only repair I have had to make on one of my foreign cars was an O2 sensor for the wife's ES300 at 130k. I have spent way more money fixing crap on the domestics that I have owned. Not to mention lost TONS more money due to crappy resale values. So far, for me...buying from overseas has been a much better move financially.

Have a good weekend all!
Dave

Ive owned the same domestic truck for 4 years and havent had to replace anything but a gas cap.

I owned a dometic truck for 2.5 years before that and never had to replace anything.

I also paid half what you did for your BMW.

disneyjoe7

I believe domestic truck where built better then their cars, where the ****'s won over them. Now they are crying since people stopped buying trucks and started buying cars, and since they didn't care about their cars people are turning to ****'s built cars.

cmy330go

MacLeod wrote:

Ive owned the same domestic truck for 4 years and havent had to replace anything but a gas cap.

I owned a dometic truck for 2.5 years before that and never had to replace anything.

I also paid half what you did for your BMW.

I'm glad you have had good experiences with your domestic vehicles. I'm just simply stating that I have had far better experiences with foreign.

Also in regards to your paying half what I did.......In my opinion there is not a domestic truck that is half the automobile my BMW was.

Please don't take that wrong. It is not my intention to belittle or tick you off. It's just that for my purposes I am more than willing to pay twice the price, because to me they are easily worth it.

To each his own
Dave

michael_w

Everybody has their own opinion here. None of this really has to do with the very cool challenger that hasn't even been mentioned since half way down page one. Just give it a break people.... It's not like you're going to sway a hardcore chevy or bmw fan into buying the car you like just because you say it's reliable and their car choices suck.

POLKOHOLIC

the way i see it, its risky going domestic - you never know if you might end up with a lemon - whearas purchasing a foreign has nearly 0 risk. so why take a chance on a domestic when you are almost certainly getting a great foreign car.

Tour2ma

Tell that to Yugo owners...

One thing to bear in mind is that when CR rates a model repair record as "poor", it means that on the order of 8% of the reponding owners have reported excessive repairs were needed. So the odds of you having a vastly better experience are very good.

MacLeod

Just for the record, here are the results of the JD Powers Initial Quality survey. The score represents number of problems per 100 cars so naturally the lowest score is best.


Lexus: 81
Jaguar: 88
BMW: 95
Buick: 100
Cadillac: 104
Mercedes-Benz: 104
Toyota: 105
Audi: 106
Infiniti: 109
Hummer: 110
Hyundai: 110
Honda: 112
GMC: 113
Lincoln: 113
Acura: 116
INDUSTRY AVERAGE: 118
Jeep: 120
Mercury: 120
Nissan: 120
Chrysler: 121
Chevrolet: 127
Ford: 127
Mitsubishi: 129
Pontiac: 129
Dodge: 130
Mini: 130
Scion: 134
Saab: 136
Saturn: 136
Subaru: 138
Kia: 140
Volvo: 140
Porsche: 147
VW: 147
Land Rover: 149
Mazda: 149
Suzuki: 151

MacLeod

I dunno, but it looks to me like you take your chances no matter what brand you buy.

brettw22

That has to be number of problems per 1000 (or higher), because you can't have 151 problems per 100 for Suzuki for instance.....

disneyjoe7

I find that a little odd, when you consider that Lexus 81 is made by Toyota 105 (high end / low end) to Honda 112 making Acura 116 (low end / high end).

Just my $.02

MacLeod

brettw22 wrote:

That has to be number of problems per 1000 (or higher), because you can't have 151 problems per 100 for Suzuki for instance.....

Sure you can. A single car can have several different problems over time.

MacLeod

disneyjoe7 wrote:

I find that a little odd, when you consider that Lexus 81 is made by Toyota 105 (high end / low end) to Honda 112 making Acura 116 (low end / high end).

Just my $.02

Not really because Lexus while owned by Toyota is a different car. It costs more because the fit and finish is better as is overall quality.

Tour2ma

MacLeod wrote:

Sure you can. A single car can have several different problems over time.

Several different "initial quality" problems...

MacLeod

Right. The survey is over a 90 day period if Im not mistaken. They figure anything that tears up within the first 90 days is most likely due to poor quality rather than owner abuse.