Sub Choices..

fab5valentine

I have replaced my front stage with RTi28's and a CSi30, they are all in the breakin stage now.. I've recently moved and have a much bigger space to deal with putting base into.. I have mailed pics to Dr. Hsu and he recomended placement location of an STF-3, or VTF-3 if I wanted streach my budget a bit.. I have also seen some great reviews on Outlaw LFM-1, and they even put it head to head with SVS PB2-ISD, and it faired very well down just under 23 hrtz, and they have a great deal on "two", but most reviewers found it difficult and time consuming to properly place two of them in a room without a lot of tinkering. I was really impressed with the reviews of the LFM-1, and that it held it's own against a SVS sub with two drivers.. Also with not being to excited of switching the VTF-3 between max output or max extention, I think I have come to the realization from alot of reviews that though the Outlaw LFM-1 did very well, the SVS SB2-ISD still picked up where that sub left off.. still went lower and louder.. I have a lot of space to fill and think I'm leaning towards the dual driver SVS PB12-ISD/2.. I don't see the need to switch it around as much once I get it tuned where I like, and I won't have to deal with the potential of cancelling each other out with the two subs concept. But I am now at the point to pull comments from evryone here at the forum.. Thank you for all comments, I'm interested in knowing peoples thoughts and experience with any of these mentioned subs.. If only the SVS was a weee bit cheaper, it'd already be ordered...

fab5valentine

BIZILL

i don't have many places in town to audition subs, especially svs. svs is internet order only. i bought my svs upon recommendation from the fine folks here.

ohskigod

spend a little extra on the sub. save a little more and get the sub you want. cant go wrong with the SVS. actually, you really cant go wrong tith the SVS or the LFM-1, which is the same or close to a HSU sub right?

Early B.

All of them are fine performers. Pick the least expensive one and go with that. Otherwise, save a couple hundred more bucks and buy more sub than you need. Also, look for used subs on www.audiogon.com and get more for your money.


P.S. -- don't make the mistake of comparing subs based on specs. Sound quality is the most important attribute.

wingnut4772

I have owned the LFM and it is a great performer. I upgraded from that to an SVS PC+ and then from there an SVS PB12 Ultra/2. For the money to value ratio I would say that the LFM-1 is the best choice.

BIZILL

hey wingnut, i was watching lotr rotk last night and noticed your name listed for the production company. i also see that your company is gonna be producing halo, the xbox game to become the movie.
http://www.imdb.com/company/co0046203/

wingnut4772

Wow!? Is that me? I need to start getting some of that cash.

BIZILL

if that is the case, i am the richest man in the world. i own microsoft. where the hell are my friggin' paychecks?
yes, i share homeboy's name.

adam2434

I own a LFM-1. I was also looking at a STF-3 (very similar to the LFM-1) and the PB12-ISD from SVS.

I went for the LFM-1 because
1) it was the least expensive with the free shipping they were offering at the time (with purchase of a sub cable, which I needed).
2) I liked Outlaw's customer service better. The guy from SVS that I talked to was arrogant and short with me, which was an instant turn-off. I've heard that SVS' customer service is generally good, so maybe this was just an isolated event.
3) I liked the looks of the LFM-1 better than the SVS.

I can't tell you sound-wise how it compares to the others, but here are my impressions of the LFM-1:
1) It produces tuneful bass with music
2) In my pretty much closed 28'x17'X8' room, it will produce LFE nicely and will rattle the pictures and doors.
3) However, I don't think it really pressurizes the room. I don't feel the bass hit me in the chest or shake my pant cuffs as some folks describe with their subs. I can't say I'm disappointed, but I'm not blown away by it.

It's in my basement on a carpeted concrete floor and my walls are cross-braced with drywall screwed and glued to the studs, so I may not be getting as much sympathetic room gain as other folks would.

Adam

Dr. Spec

adam2434 wrote:

2) In my pretty much closed 28'x17'X8' room, it will produce LFE nicely and will rattle the pictures and doors.
3) However, I don't think it really pressurizes the room. I don't feel the bass hit me in the chest or shake my pant cuffs as some folks describe with their subs. I can't say I'm disappointed, but I'm not blown away by it.

It's in my basement on a carpeted concrete floor and my walls are cross-braced with drywall screwed and glued to the studs, so I may not be getting as much sympathetic room gain as other folks would.

Adam

Actually it's the opposite. The more rigid the room boundaries, the better your chances for supporting room gain.

Room gain is dimension dependent; the larger the room, the deeper the frequency before room gain starts to occur. Room gain will occur when the room can no longer support conventional modes and then transitions to a pressure mode.

For monopole subwoofers, room gain in theory will be 12 dB/octave, but due to lossy boundaries and open floor plans ends up being more like 4-8 dB/octave in most rooms (there are exceptions of course).

In a 28x17x8 room, the longest dimension is about 33 feet long (from a ceiling corner diagonal to a floor corner). Take that dimension, double it, and that is the wavelength where your room will no longer support modes and convert to a pressure mode and then start to support true room gain. So you are looking at about 17 Hz.

The problem is that the LFM-1 will not play that low in the first place. So you are correct - you will not benefit from room gain. But the problem is not your rigid boundaries (the actually help) - the problem is your room is too big to support gain at the frequencies your subwoofer is actually capable of reproducing.

That is why in large rooms it is best to buy a subwoofer which exhibits a flat anechoic frequency response to your preferred extension point because you can't rely on the room for any help. So if you wanted a true 14 Hz extension in room, you could be looking at (for example) a 16-46 PC+.

In a much smaller room, you can get away with a sub that rolls off earlier because the room will help to extend the response. The best subwoofer alignment to complement room gain is sealed with no high pass filter. A sealed subwoofer will naturally roll-off 2nd order (12 dB/octave) unless the designer uses a high pass filter (which steepens the slope of the roll-off). In a perfectly rigid and sealed room a 2nd order roll-off is a perfect match for room gain. The trick is to match the roll-off frequency of the sealed subwoofer with the onset of room gain (which again is dimension dependent) such that the response is extended without any dips or peaks.

RuSsMaN

We don't call him Doc for nuthin'.

reeltrouble1

You got that right Russ.

I like my subs to just do what I tell them, I mean their subs afterall.

Oh, wait wrong forum.

Nevermind.

RT1

Dr. Spec

Hi Russ!

Adam - in a 4000 ft3 room, no single 12" subwoofer (save the Danley Labs tapped horn) will blow anyone away. You would really need quad LFM-1 to pressurize a room that big and be able to play at/near Dolby Reference Level without compression or audible artifacts. The LFM-1 is a very good subwoofer BTW - similar to the STF-3 but many find it more attractive with the smoked glass top - a solid purchase.

Also, even though you already purchased the LFM-1, I'd surely notify the SVS sales/marketing head (rons@svsound.com) if you received a less than satisfactory CS experience.

adam2434

Doc,

Thanks for the ed-ju-ma-cation. I had previously read most of what you're saying, but not all of it stuck.

I used the term "room gain" incorrectly.

What I referring to is more of a sympathetic response of the floor or walls caused by an excitation of a resonant frequency, resulting in higher dBs in those resonant frequencies (similar to what happens when a speaker enclosure resonates and adds some dBs in those resonant frequencies, coloring the sound). I may be way off, and maybe this doesn't really happen in rooms, so please correct me if this doesn't occur.

I'm curious about this because of an experience with a different sub in a different room. Before I finished my basement, my HT was upstairs. The floor is carpet over standard wood joists and OSB. The walls are standard drywall with screws and vibrate a little when you hit them (doubt there are any cross-braces). The room is much larger, around 50x16x8, with many openings into other rooms. My sub was a Velodyne VA-1012.

The interesting thing is that some LFE effects seem more powerful in that larger room with a less powerful sub vs. in my smaller, more rigid basement with the more powerful and deeper LMF-1. With the upstairs system, the floor would vibrate and the walls would vibrate much more, and I swear I could "feel" the bass more up there. Thus, I was curious about whether a room can add bass by resonance of the floor and walls. Or, perhaps this is more of a psychological/psychoacoustic perception of more bass, due to the tactile sensation of the resonant vibrations.

Adam

Dr. Spec

Oh, definitely a woden floor over an open space (in particular) can transmit vibrations for a greatly increased tactile sensation.

While the walls and ceiling might indeed also resonate, they don't convey vibration to the seating position and hence really don't contribute greatly to this effect. The drywall can sure rattle against the studs at certain frequencies, though. I consider this room effect particularly annoying and have spent a lot of time with glue and screw exorcising wall rattles.

Regardless, I have never felt floor vibration was beneficial to the bass experience. While it definitely increases tactile sensation, it also adds audible resonances which can sound boomy. Jump up and down on any wooden floor and then do the same on a cement floor and you'll know what I'm getting at.

Without question you need a lot more subwoofer on a cement floor to provide the same level of tactile sensation as with a wooden floor. But the bass is cleaner and more impressive with the cement floor because the effects are almost all coming from air pressure. When a depth charge goes off and you get smacked hard in the chest/gut strictly from air pressure it's very cool. As the saying goes "we don't need no stinkin' butt shakers."

cfrizz

WAAAAAAAAA!!!!

reeltrouble1 wrote:

You got that right Russ.

I like my subs to just do what I tell them, I mean their subs afterall.

Oh, wait wrong forum.

Nevermind.

RT1

Tour2ma

Ed???

What's up? Asking that 'cause I know what's down.. a couple a deer, maybe even a bear...

BION a couple days ago I was cleaning out a jacket pocket and out drops a Seabreeze Park wristband... made me smile.

Hope you and yours are doing well. My best to Edith...

EDIT:

adam2434 wrote:

or shake my pant cuffs

... and you forgot to tell Adam it is "pants waffling"... important omission there.

Dr. Spec

Tour2ma wrote:

Ed???

What's up? Asking that 'cause I know what's down.. a couple a deer, maybe even a bear...

BION a couple days ago I was cleaning out a jacket pocket and out drops a Seabreeze Park wristband... made me smile.

Hope you and yours are doing well. My best to Edith...

EDIT:... and you forgot to tell Adam it is "pants waffling"... important omission there.

Bruce - all is well here and the same to you and yours. Happy holidays to all and here's to the revival of the PWC.

mantis

What Up Doc??? Long time man. Happy Holidays Bro.

Dan

apphd

VJC reported