Serious Question here about how to spec out a systems cables.

mantis

hey guys/ Girls,

I have been shocked in the world of cables. I know I know this is a dead subject to alot of you but My quest for sonic perfection goes on. Anyone who wants to talk about it is more then welcome.

I asked a certain company about what level of cables I should use in my given system. They told me to use the very best cables they make and gave me a reason for it. They told me " why settle for a level of cable that will just get into the way of the signal, the goal here is to get out of the way". Ok I swallowed that and took it for what it was, but it got me thinking. Honestly guys I mean come on, does it take extreme high end cables to achive the highest level of sonic perfection your given system can reproduce? Think about this before you post. think about your system and if money wasn't a object, would you spend more money on cables then your system without cables cost? I have learned a theory over the years on what level of cables should be used in a given system. There was a ratio that seemed to work pretty good. I favor the better cables or next level up if you will when using my theory. maybe I'm missing something. maybe I have been misguided all these years.

Even though I work in the industry, have beenn to countless training, met engineers, sound engineers from THX,etc and hung out with some really serious Audiophiles who know more then 3x I do and I still don't have a straight reason about how to buy cables to match my system. I have many opnions that get supported my more opnions but thats about as far as it goes.

Maybe this is a dead subject and has been talked about more then anything else audio and video. But I wouldn't mind talking about it some more.

Dan

BlueMDPicker

Hi Dan,

I don't have a formula, just an observation and a couple of questions.

Reviewers of audio and video equipment always list the cables used.

Wouldn't it be refreshing if manufacturers/builders listed the cables (and associated gear if applicable) they used during R&D? They don't just design things in a vacuum, never performing real world testing (well, at least, we can hope so.)

Do you think manufacturers/builders would divulge that information if asked?

For a start, perhaps some of those who attended the Polkfest activities at Polk HQ could comment on what cables they saw in the development labs and testing areas?

Mike

joeparaski

Hi Dan, I think that the world of cables has gotten out of hand. I don't recall the website, but I saw speaker cable costing $32,500 for a ten foot piece!! And that was not a typo. I wonder if audiophiles really have the ear to hear the difference between a $50 cable and a $500 cable? And to add to the confusion, check out this website that offers some kind of miracle connectors to improve sound.... http://dakiom.com/ I'm not sure what to make of those.

PolkThug

Felt like stirring the pot today Dan? You're asking a question that can only be answered with opinions.

I can post facts and data about IC frequency response, which will in turn be ignored by those who believe in the cable company marketing.

dorokusai

PolkThug - Why don't you forward all that fascinating information to the cable manufacturers you plotted? Why complain, stand up and take charge, make a difference.

Real manufacturers back up the marketing with facts....others do not.

Take up my challenge to people like yourself in another thread....come on, stand up man.

EDIT: I mean this in a nice way as I respect Toby's efforts and contribution to this argument.

PolkThug

dorokusai wrote:

PolkThug - Why don't you forward all that fascinating information to the cable manufacturers you plotted? Why complain, stand up and take charge, make a difference.

Real manufacturers back up the marketing with facts....others do not.

Take up my challenge to people like yourself in another thread....come on, stand up man.

lmao! I'm not complaining, who am I to get in the way of profit margins?

Hearing is believing.

ninerbj

Here is a little game for all Audiophiles with money to burn, and regular folks who just love good sound.

Ready?

Call, walk, run, phone (your choice) any radio or television station and ask what cables they use. Then, if your lucky enough to know where some hi-end, high dollar per hour recording studios lurk, call them and ask what they use to connect their equipment and speakers.
The answers may suprise you.

Brad

dorokusai

Edited due to unneccesary sarcasm.

McLoki

For audio (as in 2 channel not home theater) I would say the percentages should equate to about

Speakers 40%
Source 20%
Pre/pro and amplifier 30%
cables and other 10%

That is just an estimate to keep costs balanced of course, but you did ask my opinion.

Michael.

BTW - all percents are of total system price.

steveinaz

I think there's a definite point of diminishing returns with cable choices. I personally WILL NOT spend more than $100 on a set of .5 mtr IC's, and I'm currently under that amount. Speaker cables I might go $350 on, but that's pretty much the limit.

Why? Well I think these amounts are high enough to ensure the cable is well made, and of good materials and topology. Anything beyond that would boil down to listeners preference more so than lesser quality. That's my formula.

To my way of thinking, if I have to invest more than this to get good sound, something else is wrong that cables aren't going to "fix" anyway.

FWIW, I run Kimber PBJ IC's and Kimber 8TC speaker wire, and I have no desire to replace either. I would like to try Analysis Plus Oval 9's, but just out of curiosity....

mantis

BlueMDPicker wrote:

Hi Dan,

I don't have a formula, just an observation and a couple of questions.

Reviewers of audio and video equipment always list the cables used.

Wouldn't it be refreshing if manufacturers/builders listed the cables (and associated gear if applicable) they used during R&D? They don't just design things in a vacuum, never performing real world testing (well, at least, we can hope so.)

Do you think manufacturers/builders would divulge that information if asked?

For a start, perhaps some of those who attended the Polkfest activities at Polk HQ could comment on what cables they saw in the development labs and testing areas?

Mike

Mike,
it would be great to learn what companies use to test there product.The only company I know what they use to test there gear is B&K. They use Kimber Kable and Vienna Acoutics speakers. In there test room , this is what you will find. If I remember correctly, the video was Sony XBR.

At what point is the conductor able to make the signal get from point A to B? Does it really take 34k to get it done? If that is true then a 600 dollar speaker cables would suck the life out of a system. The way this company I'm dealing with looks at things just blows me away.

Keep it coming,

Dan

Frank Z

My ears - no difference betwen $.50/ft speaker wire or $$$ wire.
Your Ears - Not my problem.

Everyone hears what they hear. Tried the $$$ stuff, no luv here.

You can swear up and down that you hear a difference, so who am I to tell you that you are wrong...and the inverse is true as well.

Enjoy what ya hear, no matter what delivers the whoopie to your lobes.

rskarvan

I think an argument can be made for interconnects at the pre-amp level. Here, a good shielding can help reduce noise. Also, more expensive cables seem to have better/tighter connections and are simply more durable.

As for speaker wires, pfff... get the lamp cord... it works just fine.

MacLeod

Frank Z wrote:

My ears - no difference betwen $.50/ft speaker wire or $$$ wire.
Your Ears - Not my problem.

Thats a great way of looking at it Frank.

I believe that you should buy a high quality, well made cable for a good strong signal free of any noise and the more expensive the cable, usually the better it performs. However I also believe that there is a point that the differences become inaudible and it comes a lot quicker than most people think. For me, the $.70/ft Monster Standard cables work just fine. Well built, low resistance, no noise.

I also believe the ultimate goal of a cable is to deliver a completely neutral and uncolored signal.

BlueMDPicker

I guess I'll do my own detective work. Speaker wires and IC at Polk HQ. Nothing too exotic looking here.

janmike

That actually is very surprising. I was in a high-end shop in Halifax years ago and ALL their equipment was connected with large cables (not that bigger means better, but better is usually thicker than standard 12G).

Fallen Kell

BlueMDPicker wrote:

Hi Dan,

I don't have a formula, just an observation and a couple of questions.

Reviewers of audio and video equipment always list the cables used.

Wouldn't it be refreshing if manufacturers/builders listed the cables (and associated gear if applicable) they used during R&D? They don't just design things in a vacuum, never performing real world testing (well, at least, we can hope so.)

Do you think manufacturers/builders would divulge that information if asked?

For a start, perhaps some of those who attended the Polkfest activities at Polk HQ could comment on what cables they saw in the development labs and testing areas?

Mike

I remember seeing a big spool of standard 10-12GA copper cable (high count multi-stranded). At least that was what I remember in the design lab and the car audio lab. As for what was on the surround bar, I think it was a cable included with the product. The ones for the in-wall demo appeared to be the same 10GA copper as in the other labs, but I didn't get a close look. I don't know what was used in the SRS demo.

On a side note, this is the same stuff that I have recommended time and time again. Unless you have serious magnetic interference or RF interference, you don't even need shielded.

MacLeod

Ive heard that before that youd have to really work at it to get noise in your cables from power wires.

I dont know for a fact myself but Id rather play it safe.

Besides, its pretty hard to find cables of good quality that arent shileded these days.

Fallen Kell

MacLeod wrote:

Ive heard that before that youd have to really work at it to get noise in your cables from power wires.

I dont know for a fact myself but Id rather play it safe.

Besides, its pretty hard to find cables of good quality that arent shileded these days.

It is true that it does take a lot to get noise in your speaker cables from power wires. The main issue has to do with the low voltage/high voltage differences between the wires which does not easily allow the transference of noise into the actual signal being sent. However, I personally prefer to play it safe when I can and route power cords and speaker wires seperately when possible

As for decent cables with shields, well again, this all depends on "decent". As we have shown above, the engineers who design the speakers don't use shielded cables for setups and testing. The only real benefit I have seen is in areas that have very high levels of RF and EM interference. Shielding the interconnects is something I HIGHLY agree with doing since any noise introduced at that level will be amplified and sent to the speakers, but after the signal makes it to the amplifier, the amount of noise that will be picked up in a typical home enviroment is usually fairly low.