The Terminator denies Tookie clemency.

Demiurge

:rolleyes:

BIZILL

cfrizz reminds me sorta like a mother in the animal kingdom protecting her young. don't mess with her!

TroyD

Agree with Cathy.....and lest ye doubt that a woman can be hard as nails, g'head and piss off the Lovely Wendi.

BDT

BIZILL

i've also learned, don't mess with a sista!!!!!!! she'll hand your a$$ to ya!

pmckeealaska

At the risk of pissing off some in this thread, my only thoughts/concerns about the death penalty is how do you teach society that killing people is wrong by killing people? Isn't there an inherent conflict there? Just wondering about that one. That being said, I'm glad the scumbag is history. One less animal to have to feed/house with taxpayers dollars. I just don't think the death penalty is a deterrent at all. Texas kills more people than any other state, yet this fact has done little to decrease the murder rate in that state. It's also ridiculous that people sit on death row for decades before getting the axe. If we're going to have the death penalty, it shouldn't take so long to kill them.

Ron-P

It's not a deterrent because like you said, it takes way too long. Now, if they were put down hours or days after the sentencing then it might be a bit more of a deterrent.

Tour2ma

You really believe a killer decides to go ahead and kill because he figures he can still live another year or two or ten on death row thanks to the appeals process?

I'll repeat what I said before... It should be hard, it should take time to be sure that no one is that is innocent executed.

Sami

Tour2ma wrote:

I'll repeat what I said before... It should be hard, it should take time to be sure that no one is that is innocent executed.

And still innocent people are executed. I'm for the death penalty but it should only be in cases where there doubt is almost non-existant.

RuSsMaN

Tookie, better you than me. Die.
I'm glad that mother **** finally got what he deserved. **** him, and the rest of the 'bangers' out there.

Demiurge

I think a killer kills because he/she has no regard for human life, plain and simple. I also don't truly believe this can be reformed behavior either. Once you commit murder it should be assumed that you will be a murderer for life. They don't deserve a second chance on this planet, that's for God to decide by judging the persons heart, and there's no way for us to do that. The victims get no choices and no second chances, the killers don't deserve them either.

Justice needs to be swift. The ammount of money we've spent to keep guys like this alive is mind boggling. Going to jail now is in a lot of ways a total joke. It's not a deterrent for some. You can go in a skinny little punk and come out looking like ole Tookie:



It should not take a long time to execute someone for their crimes.

BIZILL

russman is the ****!
good to know we've got some seniors backing our clan
i thought gangsters would have died out by now or at least evolved.

Ron-P

Well said Demiurge, well said.

that's for God to decide by judging the persons heart, and there's no way for us to do that. The victims get no choices and no second chances, the killers don't deserve them either.

Like I said earlier, all we need to do is arrange the meeting.

Tour2ma

Demiurge wrote:

I also don't truly believe this can be reformed behavior either. Once you commit murder it should be assumed that you will be a murderer for life.
... that's for God to decide by judging the persons heart, and there's no way for us to do that.

One or the other Demi...

POLKOHOLIC

Gang Founder Claimed Innocence Until the End

Schwarzenegger said the evidence of Williams' guilt was "strong and compelling." Witnesses at Williams' trial said he boasted about the killings, saying: "You should have heard the way he sounded when I shot him."

i hope tookie died a painful death and repeateadly dies in the afterlife.

Demiurge

Tour2ma wrote:

One or the other Demi...

A presumption isn't a judgement, at least I don't think it is. Reasonably, you need to keep a killer behind bars and away from the public because there is a presumption that the killer might kill again. Governments role in this situation would be to keep this person from being able to commit that act again on a truly innocent human being. Tookie commited a crime, of that a judgement was made. He murdered 4 people, there's no doubt there. If we ARE wrong about Tookie (or anyones) intentions, God will sort it out with him, if that's what your beliefs are. My point about God judging his heart is in whether or not he is truly remorseful for what he has done. Has he repented for his sins and truly changed himself into a better man? We, as a society aren't fit to make that judgement and should always err on the side of caution for the sake of the innocent.

I think you were parsing my comments there, because we did judge him of commiting murders and sentenced him to death for his crime. Where his spirit goes is out of the judgement of anyone in this world.

Again, depends on what you believe in.

MacLeod

Sami wrote:

There is something that Williams was able to deliver that the others you listed can't. I have not read his books (only seen the movie made of him, which was pretty decent) but there is something in a message from someone who has done wrong. Would Condi be as creditable in telling how gang violence is wrong? Of course we adults can take his reform with a grain of salt and wonder if that would have happened if he had not been convicted.

I do give him credit for the work he did to prevent gang violence but I also give him full credit for what he did prior to that. Now that he is executed, he has received credit for both.

No there is no good lessons that can be taught by a thug gang member that brutally kills innocent people in cold blood and then trys to become mother Teresa once he's caught and facing the needle.

Condi and others are ones that prove you dont have to become involved in that lifestyle at all and can make become a success by working your **** off. Thats a much better lesson.

MacLeod

Im all for the death penaly but I do belive in taking our time with it. Mistakes do happen and I see nothing wrong with giving a condemned man enough time to make sure we're right.

The death penalty is a deterant. You have to consider there are 2 different types of murder. Crimes of passion and cold blooded pre-meditated ones. The latter are the ones the death penalty is reserved for. If youre going to plan out a murder then you likely will consider the death penalty.

Either way, its ultimately not meant as a deterant but as a penalty.

Sami

MacLeod wrote:

No there is no good lessons that can be taught by a thug gang member that brutally kills innocent people in cold blood and then trys to become mother Teresa once he's caught and facing the needle.

:rolleyes:

Strong Bad

What kills me is all the people standing up for this idiot!

Snoop Dogg (consider the source :rolleyes: ) - "He's like a Martin Luthor King" Yeah, way to go Snoop! What an inspiration that is!

Can you believe several Nobel Prize people wanted to have him nominated for the Nobel Prize because of the childrens books he wrote!!!

He was given so many chances to side with the courts, cooperate and provide information about the gang he started. What did he do right up to the end...nope, sorry, I'm not a snitch!

What message would that have sent. "Hey folks, if you kill 4 people, all you have to do is write some kiddie books, say you have devoted your life to the lord and we'll let you live!"

I say after the execution, they should have shoved a hambone up his **** and let the dogs drag him away!!! Why waste a perfectly good casket.

Worthless P.O.S.

I hope the families of the victims can finally be at peace. 20 years they had to wait!

bobman1235

I'm pretty sure the Nobel Prize t hing was false, btw. I remember hearing about that, and how it's a complete fallacy.

MacLeod

I have no problem believing that at all!

Yassir "Thats My Baby" Arafat won the Nobel Peace Prize!!! I mean gawdamighty! A freaking TERRORIST!!!

Jimmy Carter won it for running around the globe trashing Bush and the war in Iraq.

The Nobel Prize for anything other than science is a load of crap!

Demiurge

Sami wrote:

:rolleyes:

I know that was your response, but I want to maybe elaborate on Mac's point with some of my own.

Let's say this...let's say Tookie was a childrens book writer in 1980. Let's also say, for the sake of spicing this up, that he wrote Christian childrens book. Somewhere along the lines, nearly 26 years later, Tookie went on a killing spree and gunned down 4 people one day. Do you think for one second anyone gives a rats behind? The answer is always no.

All I did is reverse the order of what he did. What's the difference? He was a good person and turned bad? What is 'good'? Like I said before, whether you're a murderer, or you cheat on your spouse....God judges what's in your heart in the end. That's the point I was trying to make.

He's shown no remorse for these crimes, in fact he says he didn't commit them. He's proclaimed innocence all along. If anything, Tookie was working against himself the entire time. In 26 years they're going to know if a man is guilty or innocent. We know he co-founded a gang that killed thousands of people and almost brought L.A. to it's knees. Surely there's some guilt by association just by that alone. Add to it the fact that he was proven guilty in a court of law of these crimes and has 26 years to prove otherwise. Mistakes happen, this wasn't one of them. While I do think this should be a speedy proccess, I do believe all folks on death row are entitled to a full, lengthy, and fair investigation, as are all other criminals.

His books didn't do squat, in fact, one of them was deicated to a fellow murderer that capped a judge and nearly a balif in the court room. Nice! He also hardly sold any of these books. While it was a nice effort, nobody is going to learn anything from a guy sitting in jail pumping irons saying how bad gangs are. The biggest impact he could make on anyone thinking about joining a gang like this is the one he made last night when he was executed.

shack

bobman1235 wrote:

I'm pretty sure the Nobel Prize t hing was false, btw. I remember hearing about that, and how it's a complete fallacy.

He was NOMINATED 9 times by various "supporters". Literally anyone can be nominated for the prize by an eligible party; there is no "pre-selection" process for the nomination. All you need to do to nominate is to write a nominating letter to the committee in Norway. Tookie's nominations came from a member of the Swiss Parliment at the behest of Death penalty opponent Barbara Becnel and 2 University Profs. Philip Gasper, an anti-death penalty activist and a professor at Notre Dame de Namur University, a small Catholic school in Belmont, near San Francisco and Brown University English professor William Keach, who is also a death penalty opponent. Many think the nominations were merely ploys to make him "commutable" in order to save him.

Strong Bad

Here's a piece of an article from ABC News:

"Since his conviction, Williams has written nine books warning children and teenagers about the dangers of gang life. He's been nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize five times and for the Nobel Prize for literature once. In 1993, he videotaped a message at San Quentin that was shown to 400 gang members, and he helped broker a truce between the rival Crips and Bloods gangs during the first-ever gang summit in Los Angeles. He also has written a "peace protocol" to help rival gangs work out disagreements."

That was so sweet of him to do. He wrote books and videotaped a message. That should be enough to erase the slate and forget the 4 people he murdered.

A "Peace Protocol". Gimme a f***ing break! Here's a "Peace Protocol"...bring our troops home and send them into the streets to wipe out the gangs!

Peace Protocol...how f***ing stupid!

Sorry folks, this retarded lame **** stuff annoys me sometimes.

aaharvel

MacLeod wrote:

Jimmy Carter won it for running around the globe trashing Bush and the war in Iraq.

that's not correct. Jimmy Carter won the 2002 Nobel Peace Prize on December 8th, 2002. Bush/The United States and our allies declared war on Iraq on March 19, 2003.

"Carter won the Nobel Peace Prize for his efforts to find peaceful solutions to international conflicts, to advance democracy and human rights, and to promote economic and social development. In 1982, he founded the Carter Center as a forum for issues related to democracy and human rights. He has also traveled extensively to monitor elections, conduct peace negotiations, and establish relief efforts. In recent years (2003-2005), Carter has continued his decades-long active involvement with the charity Habitat for Humanity, which builds houses for the needy. He can actually be found participating in the construction of these houses. For these reasons he has become widely known as 'Americas best ex-President'."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimmy_Carter

-In 2001, he condemned Clinton's pardon of Marc Rich, in public.
-Since 2004, Carter has argued that the Iraq war was an unjust and unnecessary war. That's his right as an American, and it's my right (as well as many if not most others) to agree with him.

Was Carter a bad president? Hell yeah he was, probably one of the worst that wasn't involved in scandal. He's also one of the best ex-presidents we've ever had. Period. All he had to do after moving out of the whitehouse was sit back, drink beer, play golf, and basically be lazy. He's done everything but. On a personal note and coming from experience, I think he's a wonderful human being for participating in Habitat For Humanity.

imo Carter deserved the Nobel Peace Prize, and to say the Nobel should be awarded only for scientific achievement is to disrespect Alfred Nobel's original concept of it. The Nobel Prize honors five categories: Physics, Chemistry, Physiology or medicine, Literature, and Peace.

(edit) As far as Tookie Williams deserving the Nobel Prize for Literature- beats the hell outta me. I'm like most of you. I've never heard of this guy until the past couple weeks thanks to the relentless media frenzy that surrounded him but it's safe to say that the guy does deserve death for the horrible crimes he committed. Nobel or no Nobel.

mrmusicman

The media just talks about the 4 people he killed,those are only the murders he got caught doing.How many murders or crimes did he actually get away with?I'm glad Arnold made the decision he did,now its time to move on to the next.

MacLeod

Asked if the selection of the former president was a criticism of Bush, Gunnar Berge, head of the Nobel committee, said: "With the position Carter has taken on this, it can and must also be seen as criticism of the line the current U.S. administration has taken on Iraq."

The committee made reference in its citation to current world events that may see the United States take military action against Iraq.

"In a situation currently marked by threats of the use of power, Carter has stood by the principles that conflicts must as far as possible be resolved through mediation and international cooperation based on international law, respect for human rights and economic development," the Nobel Committee said.

Clinton News Network 10/11/02

Out of the mouths of the Nobel commision themselves. They gave Carter the award because he was running around the globe trashing Bush and his War on Terror policy, specifically Iraq.


You must have some faith in my word my brother.

Demiurge

MacLeod wrote:

Out of the mouths of the Nobel commision themselves. They gave Carter the award because he was running around the globe trashing Bush and his War on Terror policy, specifically Iraq.


You must have some faith in my word my brother.

You must know that those other arguments aren't about any personal and intuitive opinions, sir, but merely who can copy and paste more vague articles than the others. The bane of any of these weak debates. I hate amateur hour, it's like arguing with a dog about what toy you want him to bring you. He doesn't know what the hell you're talking about, but keeps dropping **** in your lap anyways. Eventually he gets something right if he brings you enough ****.

You're right about the 'C' man.

Tour2ma

Note the use of the word, "also" in the quote you posted...

Not your word that's at issue, it's your objectivity...

MacLeod

I totally admit Im not objective. Im a hard core right winger. Doesnt mean Im going to lie.

Yeah, he used "also". Doesnt matter. He admits they were trying to make a political statement by giving Carter the award, which tells me the award is worthless and had nothing to do with Carter other than the fact he was the most prominent and vocal opponent of Bush. If Carter had any class, he wouldve given it back and told the Nobel commision to F off!