How much power? LSi 9

TroyD

Quality, not quantity.

A lot of people won't EVER believe this but a competently designed amp of between 75-100 wpc with a few db's of headroom will drive just about any speaker you can come up with to levels that any normal person would consider too damn loud.

BDT

wingnut4772

What specifications would you look for then if not necessarily the wattage?

Gaara

I think TroyD hit the nail on the head with this one. Quality, not quantity is what is important. I think my LSis sound great with my 600watts per channel coming from my Cinenova, and about the same as my 200watts per channel coming from my A23. It is all about quality power over quantitiy.

Jared

TroyD

I'm not saying wattage isn't important, it is. Brute force can overcome more than a few obstacles. However, given the choice of a pair of, say vintage Levinson ML-2's for example (25 or 35 wpc) and, say, an Adcom with a gazillion wpc.....see where I'm heading here?

Hell, I run my SDA SRS 2.3tl's on 75wpc and NEVER had an issue with not enough power.

I've run my LSi's on a little 35 wpc Marantz receiver and pushed them to levels no sane person could tolerate and the Marantz never broke a sweat. Something that I look at is, for example, the output should come close to doubling as the impedence drops. My Classe is 250wpc into 8ohms, 500 into 4, 1000 into 2.

Now, there is no substitute for surface radiating area and a manly amp, however, wpc isn't the WHOLE story.

BDT

sickicw

Mazeroth wrote:

I may get bashed but I'm going to try to help some guys that aren't familiar with how speakers work.

Watts = Volume...nothing more.

Some people are under the impression that more watts = tighter control over the speaker drivers, better separation etc...that's absolute nonsense. I'm not trying to sound like a jerk here but for the last 1.5 years I've devoted at least 1-2 hours per day reading and experimenting with loudspeaker design, and have learned a TON. A lot of the stuff I thought to be true, before getting into loudspeaker design, wasn't. With that...

The LSi9s will play just fine with a receiver, GRANTED, you don't listen to them at extremely loud volumes. When you double power, you gain 3db in output, PERIOD. Not better control, not better separation, just 3db. Yes, having an amp with greater headroom means the amp will be less likely to clip, which will give you better sound quality, but if you listen at a reasonable level, a 50-100w @4 ohm amp will be more than sufficient.

Polk rates the LSi9 at 88db/1w/1m efficient. When you 10x power, you gain 10db. Therefore, the LSi9 will play at 98db/10w at 1 meter listening distance. When you double distance, you lose 6db (almost always). At 2 meters, you'll have a speaker playing at 92db, which is LOUD. At 4 meters, that speaker will be playing at 86db. 86db is a pretty good number, considering you're only throwing 10 watts at the LSi9. Oh, and I forgot to mention, that is only for one speaker. Let's throw 10 watts at the other one, which gives us a 6db increase in output since we're doubling our power and number of speakers. Now, with dual LSi9s, each getting 10 watts, you're getting 92db of volume at 4 meters! Drop back another 4 meters, which I doubt anyone listens at 8 meters, and you're still getting 86db of output! Double the power to 20w, and you're at 89db. Double that to 40w, which any HK receiver can do (I had an AVR230 on LSi9s and it was great), and you have 92db of output at 8 meters, or for most people who listen around 4 meters, 98db, which is extremely loud:

http://www.schoolscience.co.uk/content/4/physics/corus/sound/psch1pg3.html

Sorry for going on so long, but I'm an advocate of not needing a ton of power. The line arrays I built are 98db/1w efficient, and I had them running off a Sonic Impact T-Amp, with the gain about 1/4 the way up and they would drive people out of the room with about 2 watts of power. The tube guys can attest to how little power is truly needed.

I say save your money and get a beefy HK, NAD, Outlaw etc. receiver and call it a day.

I usually don’t do this, but I’m gonna have to call BS.

Actually, watts = voltage * current. I’m not going to go into this any more. I’ve already posted on this subject many times, but people will believe what they want to.

Just remember, lots of current at low distortion = better amp. You don't have to have "Lots of power", just very high current power.

millerman 3732

TroyD wrote:

I'm not saying wattage isn't important, it is. Brute force can overcome more than a few obstacles. However, given the choice of a pair of, say vintage Levinson ML-2's for example (25 or 35 wpc) and, say, an Adcom with a gazillion wpc.....see where I'm heading here?

Hell, I run my SDA SRS 2.3tl's on 75wpc and NEVER had an issue with not enough power.

I've run my LSi's on a little 35 wpc Marantz receiver and pushed them to levels no sane person could tolerate and the Marantz never broke a sweat. Something that I look at is, for example, the output should come close to doubling as the impedence drops. My Classe is 250wpc into 8ohms, 500 into 4, 1000 into 2.

Now, there is no substitute for surface radiating area and a manly amp, however, wpc isn't the WHOLE story.

BDT

So your saying I can run a 500w speaker on a 75w amp and it will still sound great ? I hope so because I would very much rather buy a 75w amp

shack

millerman 3732 wrote:

So your saying I can run a 500w speaker on a 75w amp and it will still sound great ? I hope so because I would very much rather buy a 75w amp

There is really no such thing as a 500w speaker. A speaker's power rating (in general) tells you how much power can be dissipated in the speaker's voice coil without damaging the speaker. It doesn't mean a speaker need that much power to operate properly.

wingnut4772

Ok. My head is a little spinny now. Let's take a real world example here. So...what would be the difference according to what has been outlined here from THIS amplifier to THIS amplifier....besides the wattage and channel numbers..?

millerman 3732

shack wrote:

There is really no such thing as a 500w speaker. A speaker's power rating (in general) tells you how much power can be dissipated in the speaker's voice coil without damaging the speaker. It doesn't mean a speaker need that much power to operate properly.

I understand the whole 500w speaker thing but what I was asking is that a speaker that will hold 500w say an RTi 12 will that sound just as good on a 100w amp as it would on a 500w amp

cfrizz

I will tell you what I discovered.

My brother has a pair of LSI 7's being run from a "high current" 50 watt per channel Rotel amp.

The speakers sound excellent at moderate levels. However, when I feel the top of the amp, YOU COULD FRY AN EGG ON THE POOR THING!!!!

If it was pushed much higher it would probably run out of steam, & damage itself or the speakers.

Lets face it, every now & then EVERYONE wants to blast thier system just for the fun of it & not have to worry about blowing up thier speakers or thier amp.

For me the bottom line is I would rather have a 200 watt amp pushing ANY LSI speaker & know that it will NOT have to work excessively hard with tons of reserves to spare, than to push them with a 50-100 watts & risk burning them out.

I would rather spend more the first time & have the equipment last a lifetime rather than take the cheap way out now & have to repeat the expenditure in the near future.

steveinaz

There are 4 factors related to system loudness:

1. Power in watts of the amplifier
2. Efficiency rating of the speaker
3. Impedance of the speaker
4. Size of the room

How anyone can make the statement that "watts" are not important will need to explain that theory to me in detail. Can you run Lsi9's with 50 wpc?, Sure go ahead; hell, you can run them on 1 watt. However, if you like to "crank" it once in awhile, or be able to hear dynamic passages rendered in realistic scale, you better get more power.

That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

sickicw

Max watts at 8 ohms is not as important to me as the ability to double the watts as you drop impedances in half......


wingnut4772 ,
Outlaw: Power output: 200 watts RMS at 8, 300 watts RMS @ 4 ohms. THD: 0.05%

Earthquake: Power output 300 Watts RMS at 8 Ohms, 600 Watts RMS at 4 Ohms. THD: 0.006%


Based on these two spec, I can tell you that the earthquake will give you
a) more power
b) less distortion
c) Higher current (it is able to double the power as the impedance is halved)

sickicw

oh yea, wingnut4772 , with respect to the lsi 9, i don't own both of these amps, but i am willing to bet that if you plot the freqency response on a graph, with both amps, the earthquake will give you more bass response than the outlaw.

wingnut4772

Well..I have to save for that one. Kinda blew the budget last year.

wingnut4772

Anyone here want to sell theirs?

millerman 3732

I've been thinking of getting in to the whole LSi thing myself but I don't know if my AVR ( HK AVR 635) can handle it, HK says ''that all HK receviers can handle MOST 4ohm loads'' but they also said '' there are some manufacturers' that have minimum impedance WELL BELOW the 4 and 6 ohm nominal impeadence'' does this apply to the LSi line? also if the AVR can handle the load does that mean that the AVR will be pushing 150w instead of 75w

wingnut4772

I just placed THE order for the Cinenova. I am an out of control freight train...but this is it ...I swear.

shack

wingnut4772 wrote:

I just placed THE order for the Cinenova. I am an out of control freight train...but this is it ...I swear.

Bet the boyfriend is gonna be pissed......

jtgranby

shack wrote:

Bet the boyfriend is gonna be pissed......

She will be looking for a roommate soon. Post in flea market
JT

audiobliss

Congrats on the Cinenova...and getting rid of your roommate...lol...

wingnut4772

Actually he learned his lesson. I told him I was getting it and he said 'as long as the bills are paid...."

It pays sometimes to stand your ground.

Joey_V

Mazeroth wrote:

Some people are under the impression that more watts = tighter control over the speaker drivers, better separation etc...that's absolute nonsense. I'm not trying to sound like a jerk here but for the last 1.5 years I've devoted at least 1-2 hours per day reading and experimenting with loudspeaker design, and have learned a TON. A lot of the stuff I thought to be true, before getting into loudspeaker design, wasn't. With that...

The LSi9s will play just fine with a receiver, GRANTED, you don't listen to them at extremely loud volumes. When you double power, you gain 3db in output, PERIOD. Not better control, not better separation, just 3db. Yes, having an amp with greater headroom means the amp will be less likely to clip, which will give you better sound quality, but if you listen at a reasonable level, a 50-100w @4 ohm amp will be more than sufficient.

I am as skeptic as they come. And when I owned the HK330, I thought to myself, why bother with separates? There is nothing to be gained, I thought.

Well, someone better explain to me why when I hooked up the Rotel RB1070 to the LSi9, why was there such a tightening of the image, enhancement of the bass, and improvement in separation? So much so that both my younger brothers heard the difference with only 1 A/B switch.

There was a fuzziness in Mariah's voice when powered through the HK (at the same volume) that I didnt get with the Rotel, for example.

I believe, that current is far more important than pure watts. If an amp has a current throughput of 130amps at 100watts, it will outperform something that gives out 15 amps at 100 watts (like a typical Yamaha receiver).

All in all, at SAME volume, a good high current amp will drive the speaker better than a receiver with low current output.

Joey_V

Zero wrote:

Whatever.

The best I have EVER heard the LSi sound, was through 6 watts. It got plenty loud too in the mid sized room.

But the standard is high current. HK can get the job done. Rotel can do it better. And well, you can go from there...

I agree with Zero, the standard is definitely high current.

Of the receivers, an HK will definitely get the job done. Once you go Rotel, Parasound, Classe, Bryston, Halcro, Krell, Levinson and so on.... you start squeezing more and more of the 9s potential as you go up in tier. More current = more dynamics methinks.

cfrizz

Darla, you're a freakin avalanche rolling over everything in your path!!! :eek:

Congrats on the amp, and well done with the man!!!!

wingnut4772 wrote:

Actually he learned his lesson. I told him I was getting it and he said 'as long as the bills are paid...."

It pays sometimes to stand your ground.

Ricardo

wingnut4772 wrote:

I just placed THE order for the Cinenova. I am an out of control freight train...but this is it ...I swear.

Good for you!!!!

Hmmm....will we be seeing an Outlaw 770 in the FM soon???

audiobliss

Zero wrote:

The best I have EVER heard the LSi sound, was through 6 watts. It got plenty loud too in the mid sized room.

Just out of curiousity, I'd love to know where that 6 watts came from.

heiney9

sickicw wrote:

Max watts at 8 ohms is not as important to me as the ability to double the watts as you drop impedances in half......


wingnut4772 ,
Outlaw: Power output: 200 watts RMS at 8, 300 watts RMS @ 4 ohms. THD: 0.05%

Earthquake: Power output 300 Watts RMS at 8 Ohms, 600 Watts RMS at 4 Ohms. THD: 0.006%


Based on these two spec, I can tell you that the earthquake will give you
a) more power
b) less distortion
c) Higher current (it is able to double the power as the impedance is halved)

Sorry but specs mean nothing. How can you be absolutely sure A,B & C will actually happen in the "real" world, with a real musical load, in a real room, with a real dynamic passage. Fact is just by comparing specs you can't. Specs are a very general guideline and should never be substituted for actual real world listening expriences. I'm not going to jump into the whole debate as I've made my point clear several times in the past. General or absolute statements are never true when it comes to audio equipment. Each piece of the system needs to be judged regarding the synergy with the whole entire system. Making blanket statements about one small area of the equation is never going to get you anywhere; (ie; watts are only good for volume).

YMMV

H9

wingnut4772

Congrats on the amp, and well done with the man!!!!

Thanks Cathy! I think he just realized that he was being a little too much. But after this amp I really can't see where I can justify spending on anything else. I will post elsewhere and compare it to he OUtlaw 770. I know Tdeluce got one to replace his Outlaw amp and was very pleased with it.

Hmmm....will we be seeing an Outlaw 770 in the FM soon???

I actually put it up on Ebay under Auctionpalooza ....because If I stop paying the bills, THEN I will be in big trouble :eek: . If no one bites I will lower the price and offer it on the FM.

heiney9

Congrats Wingnut on another new purchase. When you having us all over to hear what sounds like a kick a$$ HT experience? I think you'll notice a justified difference between the your new amp and the Outlaw....can't wait to hear the results. I think it's so cool :cool: to have you, Cathy, Laura and others of the opposite sex here interacting in the forum. Not trying to appear sexist but normally females don't put audio and related discussion at the top of their interest list.

H9

Ricardo

wingnut4772 wrote:

But after this amp I really can't see where I can justify spending on anything else.

Yeah.....sure :rolleyes:

I actually put it up on Ebay under Auctionpalooza ....because If I stop paying the bills, THEN I will be in big trouble :eek: . If no on bites I will lower the price and offer it on the FM.

Bad girl... I understand...hope you sell it!!!