No pre-amp at all??

madmax

OK, I'm just a little crazy these days, I'll give you that.

Recently I connected my system with no preamp at all. The volume level with my specific components is about 90% of what my amp/speakers can normally handle. For example, my preamp at the highest clean setting was about 3:00. With the component driving the amps (no preamp) it is the same volume level as 2:00 would have been with the preamp installed. Pretty loud but still reasonable.

My findings are very strange. You know what? The volume control is a crutch just like a bass or treble control is.

I sit down and put one of my louder rock LP's on. (VanHalen) and start to listen. It seemed a little too loud. I wanted desperatly to turn it down a little bit, at least until I could build up to that sound level. But I couldn't, no volume control. I felt kind of helpless. After a few songs it seemed right.

A little later I put on some Carpenters. Pretty smooth songs. Half way through the first song I wanted to increase the level. I could'nt obviously because I had no volume control so I just let it play. I really enjoyed it though.

After that I played some Manhatten Transfer. Some stuff is smooth and some is more lively. One song is live and very loud.

All of a sudden it hit me. The lack of control was the same as when you listen to music in a club, stadium or someones basement band. Not relying on that knob caused excitement and mellow enjoyment depending on what was being played. I was able to focus much more intently on the music rather than thinking about setting the volume to please "me".

This lack of control enlightened me somewhat. I heard things presented differently than what I'm used to. Songs started to sound much different than I remembered. At first I was somewhat uncomfortable but after a while I started to learn to accept whatever was on the recording. I heard a lot of new stuff I never realized was there.

I may not go back to a preamp now. Although I was uncomfortable at times I found a listening enjoyment that I had not enjoyed previously.

Try it. Next time you listen to some loud rock set your volume where it is the best sounding. Don't touch it for a week while playing all different types of music you are used to. I think you will be surprised. At first it was like quitting smoking or something. It is now my opinion that volume controls cause bad habits you are unaware of...

madmax

VR3

try explaining that to my Mom.

madmax

Vr3MxStyler2k3 wrote:

try explaining that to my Mom.

Print out the post, tell here you are conducting a scientific experiment and tell her she will have to live with it for a few weeks...
madmax

beardog03

I did the same thing with my new headphones..
pluged them into the Ah! cdp, and it was real loud...no volume control..

after a couple of songs, I got used to it..

It sounded just the way it should..

since there is no volume control, there is no way to change the dynamics of the music and it flows like a waterfall..!!

ND13

So what you're saying is to just plug the source directly into an amp, not an integrated, just an amp?

I bet it would help to have songs like on DSOM that lead into the songs gradually, or it could be quite startling.

Dennis Gardner

From Audiobliss's search for a preamp thread.................

This may piss someone off but, if you are "critically listening" to music the way the engineer intended, you don't need a volume knob, let alone a remote. Play the disc, lp, tape, the way it was intended with all the differences in it, they are called dynamics.

shack

My opinion is the same now as then....I WANT a volume control AND a remote.

Dennis Gardner

shack wrote:

My opinion is the same now as then....I WANT a volume control AND a remote.

Thats why they put'em on, different strokes.

gidrah

I met a guy a couple of years ago at MWAF (Midwest Audio Fest). He is a heavy hitter over at AA. He uses in-line resisters built into his interconnects. He has no preamp and when he wants to change levels, he changes interconnects. He's a little too heavy for me, but I would love to hear his VERY major system.

lanion

No preamp would basically mean everything plays at what would be 0db on a preamp... right?

BobMcG

I used to do this years ago too. The then highly rated Denon DCDP 1520 was run directly to the amp. I could (can, I still have it) run it two ways, through a fixed output or through a variable one. It was fun running it fixed at times :eek: but in the long run I usually ended up using the variable to tame (ok, tailor) the loudness.

For now, I think I'll get my money's worth out of the new MLP.

steveinaz

I think your findings make perfect sense, the more components out of the chain, the better. But like Shack-daddy said, who the hell wants to live without the convenience of a volume knob?

I also agree with Zero's comments on the "cream filling" that preamps can provide---coloration? You bet your ****, but in a very satisfying way, IMO. I love what my A3CR does to the music; it's full, exciting, punchy, it has emotion.

I did 8 days of listening with my CDP connected directly to the poweramp, though I did use the poweramps output controls to adjust volume. It was very clean, nice, airy; but in the end it was also too clinical; a little too perfect, sterile. Give me an active pre anyday.

madmax

OK, I'm willing to admit I named this post improperly. No preamp adds no extra tone, noise, whatever. But the point was to have no control over the volume. It just gives the music more power over the listener. Lots of good commit here! I think steveinaz put it best, the volume control is a convienience. It is my stance though that this "conviencience" is detrimental to the listening experience in certain situations. I just completed another listening session and again, although it was not the volume I would have picked, it was right. BTW, right on Dennis G...!
madmax

madmax

Oh, BTW, this is a totally different direction of thinking. I would expect much opposition. I just wanted to relate my particular experience. In my 20+ years of audio playing I just never happened to think to try this in the past...
madmax

shack

madmax wrote:

But the point was to have no control over the volume. It just gives the music more power over the listener.

Why the hell would I want that? You guys are getting way too esoteric here...

Starting to sound like Dan. Zen music. The music I am. Be the music.....naa,naa,naa,naa,naa,naa,naa...

Sometimes I think you guys try to get too analytical in the science. It's music...Art! Listen, interpret, enjoy. Just because some sound engineer made certain decisions doesn't mean they are right. If you want to "color" the sound to make it more pleasing to your ear...Do it.

I Know you guys are pretty passionate about this stuff (obviously). I've been involved in this audio thing and listening to music a LONG time (probably longer than many of you have been alive). I like good gear, I like good music, I like good recordings, but mainly I just like to listen and NOT take it too seriously. But as Dennis said earlier...It IS a choice we each have. To each their own I guess...

audiobliss

Interesting idea. Since my protable CDP has a variable output (the headphone jack), I hooked it up straight to my amps for a while. It also has a 'line-out' that has a fixed volume. I may hafta try using that some time.

Gaara

Madmax,

Ever tried attenuators like the EVS Ultimate Attenuators? I was always interested in these things in the past, but I'm just to lazy to keep walking up and turning them. The fixed ones seem really cool, if you want a little decrease in the volume hook them in, if not leave them out. Just a thought.

Jared

gidrah

max - Go to AA and check out Tafka Steve. He has some pics of his very admirable system. I've met him and can say that he seems to know what he's talking about. Check his pics.

Dennis Gardner

Esoteric, Zen, analytical, interpret, art, passionate...............them would be fightin' words iffin' I was in a bar tonight.

Man ya' sure know how to turn a "guy thing" into something I'm startin' to feel embarassed about.

Good an ya' Shack, at least we are "into" the hobby bigtime!

faster100

Cool to try different things, and get all pure. But at the end of the day, I like a volume.. balance doesnt matter to me, But i like a bass/treble control also to be quite honest. The last few tube pre's ive had only had volume and that's fine.. but that's where i draw the line. Gave up the remote, the bass/treble and balance... all in the name of pure sound. I aint a givin up my volume

RuSsMaN

Just pulled the Melos SHA-1 out of the mix on the line arrays. AMC CD8b -> DPA Little Bit Three DAC -> Radii Audio MMS211 monos.

Holy Shiat! 95db speaks, on 12w single ended amps = LOUD. It is interesting, to say the least. I can't do ANYTHING about it. It is what is, and it's certainly dynamic. Shocking at first, but I got acclimated to it in a matter of seconds.

I think the AMC has a pretty high output (close to 2v if I recall), I'm going to roll the Cal Audio DX-1 in, and see how 'loud' it is (around 1v). Whether or not that makes a difference going through a DAC - I don't know, but I'm about to find out.

You're an odd duck Chuck, but I love you for it.

Cheers,
Rooster

PolkThug

madmax wrote:

This lack of control enlightened me somewhat.

You should try a ball gag and love cuffs.

Dennis Gardner

Russ..............the big tube dude.

cmy330go

I'm glad you posted this Madmax! I always pondered doing this, but never had the guts to do it. I'll have to give it a try soon. Of course that will mean pulling my brand new tube integrated out of the rack and hooking my Halo back up. Hook Up, Tear Down, Hook Up, Tear Down, Hook Up, Tear Down......I SWEAR IT NEVER ENDS!!!!! Oh well, Gotta love it!

organ

Madmax,
Thanks for the info. I think I'm gonna give it a try when nobody's home. Better start with something soft for me. My speakers are 98db/w/m so it would probably be too loud.

Russ,
Faaak, is that a SET amp? That's one big **** tube!

RuSsMaN

211 monos baby. Power Triode. 790v to the plate on the 211, 370v to the 6BM8 front end driver. If it ever gets ugly, I'll never feel it - but I'll go out with a cool hairdo.

They double as 30w light bulbs, and small space heaters - with rising natty gas costs, I figured I better have a heat source in the second living room.

Cheers,
Rooster

PS- G man has been swamped, the GTA will be handled, be patient.

danger boy

some music just sounds better at increased levels. i wouldn't expect someone to listen to Van Halen at the same levels they listen to the Carpenters. it would be to strange to listen to the Carpenters that loud.

steveinaz

I'm a little confused, if you run your source directly to the amp, and you have no way of controlling the source' volume, wouldn't the amp being playing at max? Isn't the fixed output of most line sources enough to drive an amp full on?

Dennis Gardner

steveinaz wrote:

I'm a little confused, if you run your source directly to the amp, and you have no way of controlling the source' volume, wouldn't the amp being playing at max? Isn't the fixed output of most line sources enough to drive an amp full on?

Voltage dependent. A preamp actually increases voltage above line level, thus the added sonic differences through amplification. Most home items are 700mv to 2 volts which isn't enough to drive an amp full bore.

audiobliss

Awesome looking Radii's, Russ. Oh, and thanks for the new sig!

steveinaz

Dennis Gardner wrote:

Voltage dependent. A preamp actually increases voltage above line level, thus the added sonic differences through amplification. Most home items are 700mv to 2 volts which isn't enough to drive an amp full bore.

Must be my components, when running my CDP direct into my HCA-1500, I could have the amps output knobs at about 11:00-12:00 and that thing was loud as hell, can't imagine running CDP full input/output...