Can my AMP cause poor sound

Tom Grezek

I have Polk LS70s-they've been great, but lately I've felt the sound isn't as good as it should be so I took them to my local stereo shop (they seem to know what they're doing) and did a comparison to Paradigms. They sounded great at the store. Very tight and crisp. Obviously there are a lot of variables between the store and my home, so I'm trying to figure out what can make the biggest impact. I can't do much about the acoustics in the room (hardwood floors w/area rug). I'm wondering if switching out the amp will help. I have a Marantz AV550 Preamp going to a Carver TFM-15 AMP-100 watts/channel ('92 vintage) and driving the LS70s. I know this is a big wild card, but I'd appreciate any advice.

fredv

Do you know what gear the shop used? The LS70 definitely can use more power, regardless.

MacLeod

A watt is a watt and a watt from Brand X amp isnt going to sound any different than one from Brand Y.

Now thats not to say all amps are equal, cause theyre not. Some will have different features, EQ's, processors and the like that you can use to custom tune your sound and some of these features will be better quality than others and allow for more flexibility and generally just work better.

Also, and this is the biggest difference, some amps will be more powerful. Just because 2 amps are rated at 100 watts doesnt mean ones just as powerful as the other. Ratings are not set in stone and higher end brands will make more clean power than a cheaper one. Id put an Adcom 50 watt amp up against a Sony 125 watt amp anyday of the week and twice on Sunday.

The differences will be in the ratings. Look at the THD. THD is basically telling you how hard that amp is being pushed to makes its rated power. An amp making 50 watts at .05% THD will make 100 at .5% and theoretically could make 175 watts but at 5% THD (rough numbers there) which would be quite audible distortion, so take that into account when comparing amp ratings.

So the answer is yes, your amp can make your speakers sound bad. Easy way is find what your speaker power requirements are then go get the highest quality amp you can reasonably afford in that power range.

F1nut

Yes, amps make a huge difference as do pre amps. IMO, you need to replace both.

Tom Grezek

fredv wrote:

Do you know what gear the shop used? The LS70 definitely can use more power, regardless.

Rotel-I'm not sure what the specs were.

bknauss

With everything else equal, a watt is a watt is a watt.

MacLeod wrote:

A watt is a watt and a watt from Brand X amp isnt going to sound any different than one from Brand Y.

Now thats not to say all amps are equal, cause theyre not. Some will have different features, EQ's, processors and the like that you can use to custom tune your sound and some of these features will be better quality than others and allow for more flexibility and generally just work better.

Also, and this is the biggest difference, some amps will be more powerful. Just because 2 amps are rated at 100 watts doesnt mean ones just as powerful as the other. Ratings are not set in stone and higher end brands will make more clean power than a cheaper one. Id put an Adcom 50 watt amp up against a Sony 125 watt amp anyday of the week and twice on Sunday.

The differences will be in the ratings. Look at the THD. THD is basically telling you how hard that amp is being pushed to makes its rated power. An amp making 50 watts at .05% THD will make 100 at .5% and theoretically could make 175 watts but at 5% THD (rough numbers there) which would be quite audible distortion, so take that into account when comparing amp ratings.

So the answer is yes, your amp can make your speakers sound bad. Easy way is find what your speaker power requirements are then go get the highest quality amp you can reasonably afford in that power range.

F1nut

However, all things are NEVER equal and I disagree that a watt is a watt when it comes to sound quality.

AsSiMiLaTeD

F1nut wrote:

However, all things are NEVER equal and I disagree that a watt is a watt when it comes to sound quality.

Couldn't have said it better myself....

ND13

I've had three different amps on my SDA 2Bs and SRS 2s and could tell the difference in the sound qualilty of each one. Nothing else had changed in the rig, just the amps. While the last was a much stronger amp, the other two were rated at 100 wpc @ 8 ohms. While a watt may be a watt, how that watt is delivered to the speakers is where the difference is, imo.

McLoki

MacLeod wrote:

A watt is a watt and a watt from Brand X amp isnt going to sound any different than one from Brand Y.

Wow I could not disagree with you more. Based on that fact, at normal listening levels where you are only using 10 watts or so (that would take you into the mid 90db range with most speakers) there would be no sound difference between a $4000 krell amp and a $200 sony avr.

Remember watts are only 1/2 the equasion, there is also the amount of current supplied to the speakers and the amount of power that the amp can hold in reserve to deliver.

I have heard a 50 watt krell amp destroy a 200 watt PS audio amp before both in sound quality and level it would play the speaker at. They are both nice amps, but the krell was just plain awesome. (this was about 20 years ago - so I don't remember the models involved, but the krell was like a ksa-50 mono block or something like that)

All that being said - amps can help a speaker play to its potential, but it will not allow a speaker to play above it. If you don't think the speaker is playing as good as it can, amps are one of many things to try and improve. If you just don't like the speaker, an amp may not be able to do much for you. (although I never would have purchased my SDA 1b's if I had only heard them play through an onkyo AVR cuz they sound like crap played through mine....)

Michael

MacLeod

Right because that $4000 Krell is making tons more clean power than that $200 Sony is, regardless or power ratings. Take my $300 Pioneer receiver. Its rated at 100x6. Now is that Pioneer putting out the same power as a $2000 100x6 NAD amp? Nope. Not even close, therefore the NAD amp is far superior and much more powerful. Remember, Im not saying all amps are equal or that a $200 Sony would be just as good as a $4000 Krell.

All Im saying is that if you take that $4000 Krell and the $200 Sony, level match them and bypass any EQ's or processors so that youre just measuring 2 gain block amplifiers at equal power levels, there wont be any audible difference.

So a Sony watt is just as good as a Krell watt. but that Krell is capable of making a lot more watts than a $200 Sony will and will therefore be worth more and perform much better. Also when you start cranking on the volume there will be a distinct difference cause that Sony will run out of clean power long before the Krell ever will and will start spitting and sputtering when the Krell is still clear as a bell.

Then you factor in the Krell's EQ's, processors and other features are going to perform tons better and be more flexible and more practical and know that the Krell is built with military precision with top shelf components where the Sony is just thrown together on an assembly line and you see what that extra money bought ya.

McLoki

MacLeod wrote:

Also when you start cranking on the volume there will be a distinct difference cause that Sony will run out of clean power long before the Krell ever will and will start spitting and sputtering when the Krell is still clear as a bell.

That is my point. You could tell the difference in Bass (and soundstage, but bass the most) between the amps even at low volume. At the time I don't think either amp was putting out more than 4 or 5 watts but the sound they were making was noticably different. (not night and day, but they were both pretty good amps)

You don't have to crank it at all to tell the difference between a decent and a killer amp. I think most of the difference is in the current the amp produces rather than the watts, but that is just a guess on my part.

I threw the Sony vs Krell out there just to showcase the obvious differences. You would know which one was hooked up to your speakers with both only playing 2 watts of power and still within the headroom capabilities of either amp.

When I got my Cinepro I was not just shocked at how much cleaner it sounded at loud volumes, but but how much cleaner it sounded at ALL volumes.

Michael

MacLeod

McLoki wrote:

That is my point. You could tell the difference in Bass (and soundstage, but bass the most) between the amps even at low volume. At the time I don't think either amp was putting out more than 4 or 5 watts but the sound they were making was noticably different. (not night and day, but they were both pretty good amps)

You don't have to crank it at all to tell the difference between a decent and a killer amp. I think most of the difference is in the current the amp produces rather than the watts, but that is just a guess on my part.

I threw the Sony vs Krell out there just to showcase the obvious differences. You would know which one was hooked up to your speakers with both only playing 2 watts of power and still within the headroom capabilities of either amp.

Actually you wouldnt. Thats what all the double blind tests have shown. They compare 2 different amps, level matched within .1 db of each other and, to date, nobody has ever picked out a difference.

Richard Clark has a $10,000 amp challenge which has been ongoing for 15 years or so and nobody has yet to claim the cash.

McLoki

MacLeod wrote:

Actually you wouldnt. Thats what all the double blind tests have shown. They compare 2 different amps, level matched within .1 db of each other and, to date, nobody has ever picked out a difference.

Richard Clark has a $10,000 amp challenge which has been ongoing for 15 years or so and nobody has yet to claim the cash.

Looks like we have to agree to disagree.

If you are ok being wrong, I am ok with letting you...

Michael

MacLeod

LOL!! What a guy!

F1nut

McLoki wrote:

If you are ok being wrong, I am ok with letting you...

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

I might borrow that one sometime.

John K.

MacLeod has pointed out some factual information about the amplifier "sound" mythology, but as usual this has been met with stubborn resistance. Basic audio principles teach us(at least those of us willing to learn)that amplifiers with flat response from 20-20KHz and with inaudibly low noise and distortion(widely available these days at relatively low cost)amplify transparently and aren't distinguishable when operating within their power limits, regardless of make or price. Endlessly repeating the mantra "Just trust your ears" isn't helpful in gaining true knowledge, particularly when the only way to really rely solely on the ears(i.e. a properly controlled blind test with levels matched to within 0.1dB)is greeted with about as much enthusiasm as a vampire has for sunlight.

Illustrative of this is the classic Stereo Review blind listening test which infuriated some audiophiles but also opened the eyes (and ears) of others who were able to get their heads up out of the sand. Among the results, which clustered around the percentage distribution indicating simply a random process, one notable observation is that the $12,000 pair of correctly designed tube amplifiers(i.e. they didn't have a flawed "tube sound")were indistinguishable from the $220 Pioneer receiver. Possibly just as interesting as the numbers are the before, during and after comments by the participants. The usual flowery description of sound characteristics made before the blind segments are shown not to have a factual basis. One participant(apparently the "believer" who scored 7/16)continues to describe a "cleaner, sweeter" sound which he was confident at the end of the test(but before being shown his score)that he'd heard. The bottom line is still the same; when the the labels and price tags disappear in a properly controlled blind test, so do the lavishly described sound differences.

F1nut

Once again, you fail to disappoint with your flawed copy and paste mentality. Answer me this, have you ever compared amps (blind test or not) and if so, which ones.

TroyD

Bob Carver said much the same thing in an interview and LOTS of people glom on to these statements, however, he did say that there were some 'if's' in the equation.....which most people gloss right over.

Believe what you want, just because you choose not to hear it or can't hear it doesn't make it an absolute.

BDT

F1nut

Let's not forget that Bob Carver was known to "tune" an amp to sound like another, different amp.

TroyD

absolutely.........a null test, which you can do a search on, is what Bob used to compare his amps to those he emulated. If all amps sounded the same, there would be no use for a null test.

BDT

MacLeod

Nobody said all amps sound the same just that if tested equally the sonic differences will be inaudible. You dont buy the $2000 NAD amp over the $200 Pioneer amp because it has tighter bass and smoother highs, you buy it because its more powerful, built better and has better features.

Bob Carver isnt the only one to say this. Absolutel Sound started all this by administrating a ABX test at an AES convention back in the 80's to prove once and for all you could hear a difference and when nobody could pass they came up with all kinds of excuses why their own test was flawed and never tried it again. And the most popular is Richard Clarks. All you have to do is take his test and if you pass you win $10,000. If its so easy to hear the differences in 2 equally tested amps then why not go for it.

Contact him at a2000rich@aol.com and set up a test date.

mantis

I love all the bull ****. People go around and round about how things are the same or different.

If a Krell amp sounded like a Rotel amp sound like a B&K amp then higher end amp would not sell. If I could get the same sound quality out of my Rotel amp then I could if I went and got a Krell amp, there would be no reason to ever upgrade again. I have achived the highest possible sound quality out of a amp. I'm only limited on how loud I can listen before Higher powered amp can go. Hell my amp has 330 watts per channel and a damping factor of 400. According to most speaker companies , once a amp can dampen above 100 , you don't need anymore. My amp is also a high current design so I should beable to achive very high volumes, probably higher then I can withstand.

With all that being said, I basically have Krell sound under 120db right??? Hell I'll add in that my speakers aren't extremely hard to drive being 4 ohms and my amp eats that up all day long and twice on sunday.

I have also read online in this forum and many others that wire all sound the same as long as you have the proper guage for the given length. Ok cool, I have way overkill guage for my short 8 foot runs. My wires should sound as good as Kimber Monocle Xl's. No need to upgrade my curent wiires ever. they exceed the 16 to 18 guage needed to optain proper passage of the signal. Damn I must have the perfect system.

Powercords , line conditioners , better anything in ones system don't help anything. Hell I'm selling all my expensive gear, getting what spec's say I need and walk around talking about how I have the perfect sounding system to what I have found out about amps and wire and anything for that matter making any improvements on sound quality.

I think the best thing is how speakers could possibly sound differnt. I have read spec's on many different speakers which had the same exact freq response and yet they sounded different to me, hell I should go check my hearing and join a AAA meeting. I must be drinking the coolaid way to much. I must have missed my Meds and all that other stupid crap.

Listen up butt holes, believe exactly what you want. All Amps sound the same??? Ok cool so be it, all wire sounds the same???? ok cool

I'll say this, All speakers sound the same, all preamps sound the same, everything sounds the same. All guitars sound the same. All drums sound the same.

buttholes ......... then again I must be the ****.

McLoki

Edit - forgot agreement struck in last post, sorry...

See my next post for some actual thread related content.... :cool:

Michael

TroyD

Christ Dan, take your medicine before your head explodes. :rolleyes:

If you take two solid state amps of roughly equal abiliity...they should sound similar....but, as always, the devil is in the details.


BDT

sucks2beme

What was the source?. You amp/preamp at home doesn't seem to be a bad setup. If the store was using a good Rotel cd player, that could be the sound difference. There. That should start a whole new discussion!
But seriously, players sound different. My Denon is brighter sounding than the Nad. And both of them sound tons better than a DVD player does.

McLoki

Back to the original thread. It could be your amp, but to hear that much difference at two different places I would start blaming other things first. (room, placement, setup is a good place to start)

If you want to get another amp to try, get it. Just don't be afraid or embarassed to take it back and say it was not the improvement I was looking for if you don't like it or don't hear any improvement.

On to the next thread....

Michael

TroyD

Jeeze, I just reread Dan's diatribe.

I think, finally, his cheese has slid clean off his cracker.

BDT

RuSsMaN

Yep, that boy is a couple triodes short of a line stage.

TroyD

Gold, Jerry, GOLD!

Bania

RuSsMaN

Bania WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

You know what I mean Troy, the filament is lit, but B+ is nowhere to be found?