Tubes and Club Polk

ND13

In the short time I've been a member of Club Polk, I've seen the number of tube users climb dramatically within our ranks.

Is it just me or does that not make it "appear" that audio hobbyists are turning back the hands of time, to what some consider the "golden age" of audio? Or is it that tube gear has become alot more reasonable to acquire?

Emlyn

The tube gear I use from Sonic Frontiers can't really be said to be a throwback to a previous time because it was designed to hold some of the virtues of both tube and solid state products. Most users here aren't using SET amps and high efficiency speakers, so I'd say we're mostly not really back in the "golden age" apart from using gear that has some tubes in it. The tube gear available now is probably more accessible at a lower price/quality/reliability point than it has been before. New production tubes also appear to be increasing in quality as demand for them has risen in the last few years. Wouldn't it be ironic if solid state amplification as we currently know it disappears in a few years to be replaced by digital processing and amplification, while audiophiles are still using tube preamplifiers and amplifiers in stereo gear at continuing increases in quality level?

W WALDECKER

Emlyn wrote:

The tube gear I use from Sonic Frontiers can't really be said to be a throwback to a previous time because it was designed to hold some of the virtues of both tube and solid state products. Most users here aren't using SET amps and high efficiency speakers, so I'd say we're mostly not really back in the "golden age" apart from using gear that has some tubes in it. The tube gear available now is probably more accessible at a lower price/quality/reliability point than it has been before. New production tubes also appear to be increasing in quality as demand for them has risen in the last few years. Wouldn't it be ironic if solid state amplification as we currently know it disappears in a few years to be replaced by digital processing and amplification, while audiophiles are still using tube preamplifiers and amplifiers in stereo gear at continuing increases in quality level?

i truely believe that a combination of tubes and solid state
is not a compromise but a viable solution that remedys deficiencies that plague both approaches to amplification. it offers the best of both worlds. solid state will remain a force to be recconed with for many years to come as digital amplification has its own problems and limitations as well. thanks for the topic....WCW III

SCompRacer

I'm looking for rich sound at low listening levels on a budget and to remove odd order distortion to reduce listening fatigue. I've ran through five solid state amps, and kept getting closer, but still wasn't happy. Enter an affordable tube amp that does not simply copy an old 50's design, but has improved circuitry with modern high quality components.

I'm told there are SS amps that can do what I want, but I never heard one yet and most likely could not afford one. The drawbacks are the heat and future maintenance issues along with tube availability and price. Fortunately my horizontal output tubes are plentiful and inexpensive. So thats why I am where I am today.

madmax

It is my opinion that when transistors were introduced a trick was played on the general public concerning music re-production. I grew up with transistors, have had many transistor and FET amplifiers, many in the $1500 to $2K range, had tons of power, maybe 12KW all told and had spent many dollars. When I got my first tube amp I thought to myself "Hmmm... not bad". After a few listening sessions with the tubes I reverted back to my SS stuff and noticed a noise staring me in the face. I started looking around at all my wonderful equipment thinking "Man, this stuff is crap". After a short time most of it was gone. This noise is not a hiss, not a pop, not a lean or thin sound. It varys with the music being played and truthfully I had never noticed it until hearing the tubes which does not contain it. It is a dynamic noise. Turn the source off and it is dead quiet. Many contend it is the odd harmonics. They are probably right. I've only heard a few systems where this noise was at an acceptable level but we are talking in the 3K+ range. Personally, I would rather have the tubes. (Which btw, in a good deal you can find something in the $700 range).

So what did removal of this noise do for me? I used to listen for 45 minutes to an hour and would get tired of it. I now sit down for one song and end up going through 5 or 6 CD's or LP's before I can tear myself away. It's night and day for me.
madmax

ND13

madmax wrote:

It is my opinion that when transistors were introduced a trick was played on the general public concerning music re-production. I grew up with transistors, have had many transistor and FET amplifiers, many in the $1500 to $2K range, had tons of power, maybe 12KW all told and had spent many dollars. When I got my first tube amp I thought to myself "Hmmm... not bad". After a few listening sessions with the tubes I reverted back to my SS stuff and noticed a noise staring me in the face. I started looking around at all my wonderful equipment thinking "Man, this stuff is crap". After a short time most of it was gone. This noise is not a hiss, not a pop, not a lean or thin sound. It varys with the music being played and truthfully I had never noticed it until hearing the tubes which does not contain it. It is a dynamic noise. Turn the source off and it is dead quiet. Many contend it is the odd harmonics. They are probably right. I've only heard a few systems where this noise was at an acceptable level but we are talking in the 3K+ range. Personally, I would rather have the tubes. (Which btw, in a good deal you can find something in the $700 range).

So what did removal of this noise do for me? I used to listen for 45 minutes to an hour and would get tired of it. I now sit down for one song and end up going through 5 or 6 CD's or LP's before I can tear myself away. It's night and day for me.
madmax

Yep, that about nails it. You sure are a smart fella.

madmax

ND13 wrote:

Yep, that about nails it. You sure are a smart fella.

Nah man, that was the guy sittin' next ta me...
madmax

Gary Robertson

ND13 wrote:

In the short time I've been a member of Club Polk, I've seen the number of tube users climb dramatically within our ranks.

Is it just me or does that not make it "appear" that audio hobbyists are turning back the hands of time, to what some consider the "golden age" of audio? Or is it that tube gear has become alot more reasonable to acquire?

---

The tube ampe just have a certain sound/bite to them that sarious audiophiles prefer. the quality of sound at much,much less wattage is phenominal--and tahe authentis truthfulness to their sound--and yes they are starting to become way more reasonable to obtain..noewr days with the modern technology WOW the elimination of coupling capacators and all that other stuff and focus more on TIM instead of THD.
Transit innermodulation Distortion in the one we should be worrying aboit--(tube desighers know this) and not THD and the negative feedback syndrome..although im an lov with my Bryston -i should also own a big conrad Johnson or somethong ,especially with the prodigy's

audiobliss

You can add me to the list of folks rushing out to get tubes!

:D:D:D

Dennis Gardner

Transistors gave us portability,safety, durability, and less maintenance.

Notice that good sound wasn't in the list?

On a side note: My dad always laughs when he hears kids drive up with their cars with 2000 watts bumpin in the trunk. He did it with 10 watts of tube power into 2 high efficiency Altec 15 inchersin an infinite baffle setup in 1956 with just an am radio.

W WALDECKER

Dennis Gardner wrote:

Transistors gave us portability,safety, durability, and less maintenance.

Notice that good sound wasn't in the list?

On a side note: My dad always laughs when he hears kids drive up with their cars with 2000 watts bumpin in the trunk. He did it with 10 watts of tube power into 2 high efficiency Altec 15 inchersin an infinite baffle setup in 1956 with just an am radio.

Hey Dennis , come on now buddy not all solid state gear is created alike and you know this to be a fact. my $1500 Khartago monos were as smooth as velvet and had what others described as a tube like sound. i love what a tube preamp does in conjunction with my 300 wpc 120 amps of current mono Extremes and i aspire to get a more refined Valve preamp in the future. i must argue that some of the best power amplifiers are solid state and they are inherently more reliable and run much cooler which prolongs the useful life of the electronics that reside in the circuit. facts are stubborn things. thank you.....,your good friend..... William C Waldecker III

Dennis Gardner

William,

I think that the fact that you and I both like what Odyssey has done with a solid state circuit is a further testament to the reality that tubes do create a much more enjoyable sound. Bob Carver knew this also, and his amps reflect his preference for the smoother sound that tubes have. I personally prefer the reliability and low maintenance that SS circuits provide, but only if they match the sound that I love.

I got your PM and I will be second in line!!

DG

W WALDECKER

Dennis Gardner wrote:

William,

I think that the fact that you and I both like what Odyssey has done with a solid state circuit is a further testament to the reality that tubes do create a much more enjoyable sound. Bob Carver knew this also, and his amps reflect his preference for the smoother sound that tubes have. I personally prefer the reliability and low maintenance that SS circuits provide, but only if they match the sound that I love.

I got your PM and I will be second in line!!

DG

yeah Dennis, i am aware that the TFM nomenclature stands for transfer function modification and Bob Carver was trying to mimic the sonic signature of his Valve designs within the framework of a solid state circuit with a fair amount of success. he is one of my favorite Audio Engineers right up there next to Herr Rolf Gemien of Symphonic Line in Germany....thanks....WCW III

HBombToo

For me I believe the nature of the Polk design with efficiency in mind lends itself to the glory of tubes. Hence, the large following of tube experimentation within our club.

I have an outlaw and have converted the front end with tubes and SDA's... whats that tell ya???

HBomb

Dennis Gardner

HBombToo wrote:

whats that tell ya???

HBomb

You're in the know!!

I think that along with everything else in our fast and furious world, audio went along for the ride by adopting a no-fuss/no-muss manufacturing mentality with solid state technoloy leading the way. Less trouble for the consumer means less returns and service required. This is the general way to produce for the masses.

I just prefer to avoid the masses, whenever I can.

madmax

W WALDECKER wrote:

i must argue that some of the best power amplifiers are solid state and they are inherently more reliable and run much cooler which prolongs the useful life of the electronics that reside in the circuit. facts are stubborn things. thank you.....,your good friend..... William C Waldecker III

Of course the tube amps from 40 years ago are fresh as a new rose with a new set of tubes for $50 and replacement of a few caps. Facts are stubborn things for sure. They pop up in the weirdest ways...
madmax

HBombToo

Dennis Gardner wrote:

You're in the know!!

I think that along with everything else in our fast and furious world, audio went along for the ride by adopting a no-fuss/no-muss manufacturing mentality with solid state technoloy leading the way. Less trouble for the consumer means less returns and service required. This is the general way to produce for the masses.

I just prefer to avoid the masses, whenever I can.

I know that I'm not in the know but for the rest I agree with you 100% Dennis. The public is a lazy bunch only looking for the easy way out. I sit here recalling my Grandmother telling me about the "Victory Garden" during the great depression. WE have a long way to get back to whats important is all I can say...

Henry

W WALDECKER

madmax wrote:

Of course the tube amps from 40 years ago are fresh as a new rose with a new set of tubes for $50 and replacement of a few caps. Facts are stubborn things for sure. They pop up in the weirdest ways...
madmax

i agree, point well taken but i feel that debate is a healthy thing as long as everyone is nice about it!....thanks....WCW III

madmax

No problem with debates here. I feel that unless you consider other points of view you are forever stuck knowing only what you know today. What fun is that?
madmax

ND13

I for one don't mind having to work a little(like biasing or rolling tubes) to get the sound I like, that's part of the fun to me. With that said, I'm so freakin happy that the MLP has a remote. The work should stop when it's time to sit and listen. I don't want to have to get up to adjust the volume for different passages.

W WALDECKER

ND13 wrote:

I for one don't mind having to work a little(like biasing or rolling tubes) to get the sound I like, that's part of the fun to me. With that said, I'm so freakin happy that the MLP has a remote. The work should stop when it's time to sit and listen. I don't want to have to get up to adjust the volume for different passages.

oh' mr big shot has got a remote my Anthem aint got no stinking remote!

cmy330go

I must admit that this increased chatting about tubes is really making me curious what tubes could do for my 2ch system. I will say that I am quite impressed with my Halo preamp and amp, but am wondering what it would cost to get into a tube amp or preamp (or both) that would outperform my current gear.

Does anyone have any suggestions?

Dennis Gardner

cmy330go wrote:

but am wondering what it would cost to get into a tube amp or preamp (or both) that would outperform my current gear.

Does anyone have any suggestions?

About $2295.

Try this link:Dodd Reference

Our own RuSsMaN has this fabulous preamp offered for what I would consider a steal.

ND13

cmy330go wrote:

I must admit that this increased chatting about tubes is really making me curious what tubes could do for my 2ch system. I will say that I am quite impressed with my Halo preamp and amp, but am wondering what it would cost to get into a tube amp or preamp (or both) that would outperform my current gear.

Does anyone have any suggestions?

Check out F1's VTL http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33312 in the FM for under $1k shipped. That one will get you an extremely good feel for what tubes will do for you. If you want to experiment for less, there are several for $500 or less that are up to the task.

shack

Tubes....I can take em' or leave em'. I own a nice tube pre and have tried several different tubes....and they sound very good. But I find that I lose very little moving my SS pre back into the mix. I've heard some really good tube CDPs, but I've heard non-tube CDPs I like better. I don't have these "tube withdrawal" symptoms several have mentioned when they go back to SS for whatever reason. Of course, I am also a guy that even though I play a LP from time to time, I'm not wowed by vinyl either (been there, done that). I have been doing this audio thing now for almost 40 years and it really is just a matter of personal preference. I have a 26 year old rig that still sounds good and I have plenty of SOTA gear as well. I like to try new stuff but good old stuff is cool too. Cables sound different to me and some I like and some I don't. I like SACD (2 channel) and don't own a single DVD-A. One of my CDPs does HDCD. I don't listen to MP3s. I am a HUGE fan of surround sound for movies...2 channel is for music. I use receivers and I use separates. I like them both.

Dennis Gardner

Takes balls to stand up and admit to swingin' both ways in this thread.

Good on ya', Shack.

shack

Dennis Gardner wrote:

Takes balls to stand up and admit to swingin' both ways in this thread.

Good on ya', Shack.

Yep....I'm bi-audio....

TroyD

Well, I think that there are a lot of issues that come to play here. One is that you've had a solid core of folks Russman, F1, Doro, madmax preaching the gospel of 2ch and tubes. As I've said before, one of the cool things about this forum is the number of 2ch converts from the HT crowd.

The other thing I find interesting is that listening to tube gear really shows you how unimportant rated specifications can be. I find tubes to be, inherently more musical...I think (without getting into a technical discussion) stems from the analog nature of them.

That said, there IS a place for SS though. I've heard and owned SS gear that I think is every bit as good and, in cases, better than some tube gear. So, no, I don't think one is inherently better than the other.

BDT

madmax

When I first got into tubes 5 years ago everyone on the board thought I was some kind of an alien. Nothing has changed, they still think that...
madmax

ND13

madmax wrote:

When I first got into tubes 5 years ago everyone on the board thought I was some kind of an alien. Nothing has changed, they still think that...
madmax

Maybe if you'd hide those antennae, on your head, under a baseball cap or something, they wouldn't think that of you anymore :eek:

organ

I got into tubes about 2 1/2 years ago. I was completely satisfied with my NAD seperates and had an Onkyo receiver collecting dust. My co-worker decided to trade his tube amp with my receiver. I thought it was a cool way for me to see what tubes sound like.

I wasn't expecting the tube amp to blow my NAD away but it did. I couldn't believe this 40yr old amp sounds this good. I'm still in the process of restoring this amp slowly so I can hear the difference.

I love tubes so much that I decided to build a complete 2ch system around it by getting a tube pre and high efficiency speakers. And tube rolling is so much fun. I love being able to tweak the sound to get what I want.

Of course, there's the cool factor too. Whenever I have friends come over, they always check out the tube equipments with this "wtf? look" on their faces.

TUBES RULE!

Maurice