good sounding interconnects, oh Lordy here we go again!

F1nut

MacLeod wrote:

All the cables I was talking about were car audio cable. So what? If fancy home cable can widen my soundstage why wouldnt fancy car cable?

Different animals. Cars are not close to being an ideal environment when compared to a home.

Ill say it again, there are differences in cheap and expensive RCA's (resistane, build quality, noise rejection, connection) but they have no effect on how smooth the bass is or how wide the soundstage is or how clear the highs are.

You seem to be ignoring the findings of our cable swap program and many of those folks use to think cables didn't make a difference.

MacLeod

True, cars are not an ideal environment for testing but theyre not that bad either. Especially in newer cars, the noise floor is not that high plus we're using a lot more power and as a result you can easily here subtle differences in music as little as 3 db so something as drastic as one set of cables being brighter than the warmer sounding Brand X cables should be easily detected.

Im not ignoring the findings of the cable swap program bro, I just dont consider them to be a true and reliable measure. I believe the only true way to determine if you can hear differences or not is thru a double blind test and, to date, nobody has proven that you can. If Signal Cables were very bright and sibilant and Audioquest cables were warm plus had a much wider soundstage, you should be able to pick them out every time yet in a true, double blind test, nobody can do it, or at least hasnt done it in the 15+ years theyve been going.

heiney9

Clicky, click

heiney9

Now I agree to disagree let's all have a.....

reeltrouble1

There is not a reason to agree or disagree, he already said cables matter.

Now for those who have not yet made up their minds.

"The rule of thumb for impedance matching is that a lower pre/pro output impedance and a higher amplifier input impedance MINIMIZES the effects of the interconnect cable. The ratio of output impedance to imput impedance should be greater than 1:10, often MUCH greater." Mark Peterson, Technical Editor HTM.

Now I know cables make a difference because I sense it and there is some science for those that need it. Also indicates why some may not hear big difference with their rig. I also recommend Martin Luther's work on the differences between reality and actuality, an excellent read.

RT1

fredv

heiney9 wrote:

Clicky, click

I love this pictures

rskarvan

Cables absolutely do matter. Some have higher tensile strength than others - if you are rigging heavy equipment with them. For the purpose of audio, most all pass an electron down the line just fine.

ND13

I was one of the nay-sayers til just recently. I don't think you have to spend a huge amount of $$$ to get good cables, though. I had a RS Fusion out perform a copperhead in the tube pre to ss amp position and in the tube pre to tube amp position. In the source to pre position, I really couldn't tell a difference. I think all the magic is between the pre and amp. That may be why alot of the naysayers don't hear the difference. They may not be running seperates. If you are running a receiver you can't put an IC between the pre section and the amp section of it.
I could never tell the difference when I was running a receiver.

I AM IN KNOW WAY DOWNING ANYONE THAT USES A RECEIVER. I still use my HK with my SDA 2Bs and am very happy with the sound they produce together.

danger boy

reeltrouble1 wrote:

"The rule of thumb for impedance matching is that a lower pre/pro output impedance and a higher amplifier input impedance MINIMIZES the effects of the interconnect cable. The ratio of output impedance to imput impedance should be greater than 1:10, often MUCH greater." Mark Peterson, Technical Editor HTM. RT1

can you or someone expand on this? I have my SRS connected to a NAD 2600A amp. not the best but it does the job for now. my problem is, the signal cuts out on low volume coming from the pre.. which is a Kenwood Basic C 2. There again, not the best of course.

I am wondering if the impedance from the pre to the amp doesn't match.. therefor cutting out? is this possible? i've changed out all the interconnects, to see if there was a bad one.. nope. I haven't tried another amp.. that would be next i guess.

reeltrouble1

Al,

Its pretty straight forward, if you can get the specs from the manufacturer check the impedence output rating for the pre then for the amp. Now these numbers are just an example and made up but say your output impedence on the Kenwood is 50 then it should be happy with an amp having an input impedance of 500 ohm. If that is an older Kenwood you might have a problem. Also if the amp has alot of gain and that NAD has a bit say more than +30 decibles impedenace matching can be diffulcult. If the Kenwood is cutting out a low levels you may have a "pot" problem with the gain control, most volume knobs are more accurate above 12:00, of course we rarely ever or should go there.

The manufactures know the above rule of thumb ratio, most ss gear will play nice with each other, but there are some freaks, and when using older stuff, they are more prone to matching.

RT1

AsSiMiLaTeD

It's really simple...

If I take 100 people and do a double blind test, and at least 1 person can pass the test every time, then there's a difference. If you don't accept that logical argument, then just stop right here...

I've heard a couple arguments against this theory and I'll address them here...

1 - "Well, if only 1 person can hear it, there's not MUCH difference" - That may be and probably is true, but we're not determining how much that difference is or even if the more expensive cable has a better sound - we're just determining IF there is ANY difference.

2 - "Well, he probably already knows the sound of one of the cables and that's why he's able to pick it out" - Thank you for just proving my point that there IS a difference.

3 - "1 person out of 100 people taking the test does not provide any statistical proof that there is a difference, the majority of the people have to be able to pass the test to prove any difference" - You're retarded, plain and simple. If 1 person can pass the test 100% of the time, then that provides statiscally sound proof that there is a difference. Now if he can only tell the difference 80% of the time, then you have to have more than one person do that...but we're not getting into that because we've got at least 1 person who can pass the test without fail.

4 - "But if only 1 person can hear the difference, then it must not be that much of a difference" - I won't dispute that, but again we're not debate HOW much difference there is, just IF there is one.

5 - "But if there's not much of a difference and 99 out of 100 people can't even hear it, then what's the point" - The point is to disprove those who emphatically say that there isn't a difference between cables. They're not saying there isn't much difference, or that most people can't hear a difference. They're saying that there is NO difference and that science proves this.

My point - even if only 1 person on EARTH can hear a difference, if they can hear it 100% of the time then it exists.

Now, for the double blind tests...

I'm aware of several double blind tests where at least 1 person was able to pass it without fail. I took place in a test several years ago conducted by a university somewhere up north (can't remember the name, will have to find it now) and there were a couple of us that could hear the difference between cables without fail.

Unfortunately life events prevented me from making it up to Polkfest, as I was going to be the test subject in a double blind test.

So why don't you see these tests posted where only 1 or two people can hear a difference? Because companies like Monster and Audioquest and whoever else don't want them posted, because it would KILL their business. Sure, so 1 person can hear a difference and that proves that there is a difference, but they don't care about that...because the average consumer doesn't care about that. All that test does in their eyes is show that most people can't hear a difference and that more expensive cables are a waste of money. Marketing 101 says they don't publish those results...

That is all...

MacLeod

There is a difference, just not tonally. Nobody is saying cables dont make a difference, they most certainly do. Just that youre not going to get tighter bass out of one cable or cleaner highs out of another. Signal strength and purity are whats affected by cables, not soundstage, imaging or tonal characteristics.

One person taking a strict double blind test and choosing correctly 12 out of 12 times would absolutley be proof you could hear a difference. Problem is nobody has ever done that in a strict, controlled scientific ABX test.

Again, NOBODY is claiming that there is no difference in cables, there obviously are.

The magazines and cable manufacturers are the biggest proponents of the cables with the "wider soundstage" or "deeper bass". If they could come up with a ABX test that proved their point they would plaster it all over the place. It is in the interest of the manufacturers to prove that you can make your system have tighter bass and a deeper soundstage just by adding their cables.

heiney9

MacLeod wrote:

There is a difference, just not tonally. Nobody is saying cables dont make a difference, they most certainly do. Just that youre not going to get tighter bass out of one cable or cleaner highs out of another. Signal strength and purity are whats affected by cables, not soundstage, imaging or tonal characteristics.

One person taking a strict double blind test and choosing correctly 12 out of 12 times would absolutley be proof you could hear a difference. Problem is nobody has ever done that in a strict, controlled scientific ABX test.

Again, NOBODY is claiming that there is no difference in cables, there obviously are.

The magazines and cable manufacturers are the biggest proponents of the cables with the "wider soundstage" or "deeper bass". If they could come up with a ABX test that proved their point they would plaster it all over the place. It is in the interest of the manufacturers to prove that you can make your system have tighter bass and a deeper soundstage just by adding their cables.

Dammit Mac you're sucking me back in... A stronger cleaner signal usually means better soundstage, tighter bass, better tonal characteristics. So you kind of negate your arguement. You also, IMO can't say in one breath absolutely cables make a diff, but don't affect the sound quality. How do they make a diff if not in sound quality? How does a cleaner stronger signal make a diff if not impacting the tonal characteristics of a particular cable?

H9

MacLeod

To a certain extent. A stronger signal only means itll sound louder at a lower volume than a weaker signal. Some car cd players have higher voltage pre-outs than others do. It has no affect on the clarity of the highs or anything like that, it merely sends out a stronger signal which requires less amplification. You take a h/u with 4 volt preouts and one with 16 volt preouts and adjust them to the same loudness and there wont be any difference.

Having more volume will increase the bass response and can widen and change the soundstage but were talking several db's here and the difference in signal strength between cables is going to be extremely minimal. Even if it were enough to change the bass and stage, all youd have to do is turn the volume up on the weaker cable and it would sound just like the stronger cable.

steveinaz

Ok, I was gonna remain out of this too because it's almost like arguing religion---it's pointless. However, just to satisfy my curiosity, how many of you that claim different cables do not have tonal differences have tried any of those available in the cable swap program?

WilliamM2

While I've tried several cables, on few different systems I have had over the years (separates), I did not try any in the cable swap program.

Are those the only cables that make a difference?

MacLeod

Never tried any of the ones in the swap program but I have tried probably about 20 different types in car systems over the last 15 years and have used a few different types in my home system as well but never any of the $100+ cables. Mostly ranging from the $10 Radio Shack RCA's to some $50 Monsters.

danger boy

steveinaz wrote:

Ok, I was gonna remain out of this too because it's almost like arguing religion---it's pointless.

this hobby IS a religion....

danger boy

Here again. this cable i'm currently demoing (a copper wire, silver tinned interconnect, for home use) did make a difference in tonal quality in my system. I know i'm not just wishing it would make a difference, it did make a sound quality difference.

The more i listen to it again... i'm finding out that on some recordings that this cable may not be for me.. see i've still got the SL2000's tweeters in my SRS's, and we all know that they are not the best and are somewhat bright, and harsh. I'll be changing them out later this year.. (my Christmas present to myself). So maybe with the new replacement tweeters, it would tame this cable into something quite pleasant to listen to.

danger boy

Aaron, you may want to try a few other cables for your home use other than RS and Monster. Monster like Bose is mostly all hype, and little substance. There are plenty of good cables well under $100 that would give you good sound... ie: Signal Cable 2's are a good example.

MacLeod

danger boy wrote:

this hobby IS a religion....

Now this we can agree on!

I do want to try some different brands of cables, Al. I dont mind paying $50 for a set and its always a good idea to go out and buy new gear!

I defintely do not know everything there is to know nor have I experienced all there is to experience so ya never know, I just may be suprised.

AsSiMiLaTeD

One person taking a strict double blind test and choosing correctly 12 out of 12 times would absolutley be proof you could hear a difference. Problem is nobody has ever done that in a strict, controlled scientific ABX test.

That's just not true...

Why don't you see those test results posted? Again, because if ONLY 1 person out of 100 can pass the test, while it proves there IS a difference, it also proves that it's so small that only 1 person can hear it. Cable makers aren't gonna post those results because that would be damaging to sales, plain and simple. You gotta remember that the average user isn't as finatical about this stuff as we are and doesn't care if there IS a difference. If I tell them that there is a difference, but only 1 person out of 100 can hear it, that'll be enough to scare off 99.99% of the business, so therefore damaging to sales...

Like I said, I know of several of these tests, and have taken place in one myself. Just because you can't go to google and find it in a search doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Mac, I know car audio has come a long way, but it's still just not on par with home audio and never will be. You're probably never going to hear a difference in a car, especially the subtle differences when comparing high end cables.

Also, I'm not sure what you guys have compared on as far as home systems either. You need some fairly high end stuff to hear the differences - no the stuff you can buy in Circuit City isn't going to cut it most likely. I couldn't hear any difference in my HT rig until I added the Parasound amp and DAC into the mix...

Bottom line, there IS a tonal difference in cables, but some will just never believe...

mantis

Those who don't believe is fine with me. Those who believe same thing.

You can show the door but can't make them walk threw it.

Dan

MacLeod

So youre saying there is a tonal difference but you have to buy the really expensive cables to get it and even then only 1% of people will hear it?

And yes, car audio doesnt have $5000 head units or $100,000 speakers or $3000 RCA's so in that sense we are behind HA.

sucks2beme

The most obvious place to test cable differences is in headphones. Differences between stock and various replacement cables for Sennheisers are well documented and easy to hear. Almost everyone agrees as to the sound changes each cable provides. The only real difference is what each listener prefers. Bright, warm ,or neutral. Some people prefer stock!
But most can hear the differences. The real question for most users buying
cables and interconnects is what sounds good without breaking the bank.
Sometimes, a modest interconnect and 12 ga. speaker wire IS THE BEST SOUND! And yes, I can hear the difference from cheap interconnects to Monster THX Ultra 1000's I got at Ultimate Electronics' closeout.

PolknPepsi

.........poor horse.......

shack

PolknPepsi wrote:

.........poor horse.......

That's OK....he can't feel the beating anymore....you know....since he's dead..... :rolleyes:

ND13

Now they're tenderizing it for the dogs so they won't have to eat tough meat.

cfrizz

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!

danger boy

i'm not knocking anyone and i hope this doesn't offend anyone here either.

I found this link to a handmade interconnect. it's $650 for a 1 meter length. it has hand made African blackwood connectors. and some other exotic features.

At this point i'm sure it's a good sounding cable. but at what expense? There is a point where cables just become ridiclous in price vs performance. I think this may be that type. Plus having a handmade wood connector covers.. who the hell is gonna see em anyways? they're hidden behind your components.