Dean, for your eyes only!!!

mantis

Ok,
let me address my comment's on Klipsch.
1)The ability to image is something these speaker's have a hard time doing.I have heard them on many different types of electronic's.But no tubes although that makes an interesting mix.
2)Depth in my opinion is the ability to fill the entire front of the soundstage with sound comming from deep in the soundtrack.Like when you listen to Lerenna Mckinnitt, lots of soft sound's swirl around her as she sings soft then open.
3)Mid range...Very hard to here clear air inbetween instrument's.When alot of midbass happen's ,they mud up and sound compressed.Midbass or range as you will is difficult for most speaker's.Untill you sit infront of a pair of Wilson watt puppies, you really don't know what's in your music.
My piont here is not to kick around your speaker's dude,I don't care to do that .But I personally don't like Klipsch.
Now we have a customer with an older pair of Klipsch reference, I didn't get the model but he run's them with a Proceed pre amp and Krell kav250a amp with Transparent reference xl wire that cost more then the speaker's do.They still don't sound that good.They still are edgy and left and right.
I'm most likely the most ANAL person when it comes to setting up speaker's.My customer's will sit infront of there speaker's and say"I don't think it get's any betterthan this" and I tweak them some more and there eyes get real big and the tip comes out of the wallet, but that another story.Case and Point, I set them up toed in, it's an artform to set up speaker's, if you got your speaker's to image...god bless you!!The new rf-7's are the best to date I feel Klipsch ever made and has come close to Imaging.
I will give them this, those speaker's can Rock better then most if not all other speaker's in there class,thats one good thing I think they do.
Image is the ability to full you into a middle speaker playing, and the sounds fills the room from top to bottom, left to right and all around.Placement is the most important part of any speaker set up. Then toe in toe out, raise the speaker up then down and find where they perform the best.Then the next time you listen the madness start's again.

Dean just remember I'm not picking on your speaker's in anyway,I'm glad you like them, you should you worked hard to own them.But i would like to know exaclty what you did to make them sing like you say they do.
Dan

dean/klipschead

...well...let me try and tackle this.

The ability to image is something these speaker's have a hard time doing. I have heard them on many different types of electronic's.

If you mean horns in general, I disagree. We will have to come to some agreement on terms here. "imaging" as defined by the Stereophile glossary is as follows: "The measure of a system's ability to float stable and specific phantom images, reproducing the original sizes and locations of the instruments across the soundstage." Horns actually do this extremely well and here is why:

Controlled Directivity --



This is best explained using the explanation by Klipsch:

"The ability to focus the output (acoustical energy) at the listening area is called controlled directivity. Controlled directivity reduces room interaction and improves articulation.

The diagram above shows the coverage patterns of a horn loaded system and a direct radiator system. The horn loaded system makes it possible to focus desired levels of output directly at the listening area. With the direct radiator system, some of the output reaches the listening area, while the balance of the output bounces back into the listening area from the side walls, floors and ceiling, smearing the sound.

A speaker with a proper directivity index (DI) will be able to accurately cover the listening area with the desired information, resulting in better stereo imaging and improved articulation. A good analogy would be a comparison between concert seats in the fifth row, directly in front of the musicians, and seats in the back of the auditorium underneath the balcony, where the direct sound reaches you after having mixed with the reflected sound being bounced off the side walls, floors and ceiling. Most people would choose the fifth row over the back of the auditorium, but a quick check of ticket prices should confirm the analogy."

Klipsch Out -

Now, direct radiating loudspeakers have much more reflected energy, and they give the impression of good imaging. But when compared to a properly set up horn system -- their imaging sounds homogenous by comparison. Good imaging places space between the instruments.

I might suggest you read the following review -- especially the comments regarding imaging: http://www.audio-ideas.com/reviews/loudspeakers/klipsch-rb5.html

Depth in my opinion is the ability to fill the entire front of the soundstage with sound coming from deep in the soundtrack.

I disagree. Depth is part of imaging. It is the front to back part of imaging, from the wall behind your speakers to your listening position. At my listening position I can hang David Gilmour's face three feet from my chair. What you are describing is a speaker's ability to capture and reproduce low level detail. Sounds underneath are pushed up so there are layers. I addressed this in the thread http://clubpolk.polkaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2854 where I used the analogy of pumping water with a piston as opposed to without one.

Midrange...Very hard to hear clear air in between instrument's. When alot of midbass happen's , they mud up and sound compressed. Midbass or range as you will is difficult for most speakers.

I agree here and know what you are saying. But you yourself point out here that this is difficult for most speakers -- especially two ways -- which the Klipsch are. All two-ways will pinch up when driven hard. Since the woofers are responsible for both the midbass and the midrange -- the motion of the woofer distorts the midrange. Unavoidable. However, the Klipschs' have a relatively low crossover (2Khz), anodized metal drivers (light, stiff and well damped) -- and so are less prone to this than most two ways. Also, a good sub put into the loop utilizing the high pass crossover almost totally alleviates this problem, as it takes the load off the woofers and cleans the midrange up. I know, you know this already -- sorry, I'm babbling.

I still maintain that most people go cranking on that volume control knob during listening sessions without a baseline telling them how loud it is. Since horns have so much lower levels of distortion at any given power point -- it is all to easy to start jacking that volume up.

Check it out:



It would take an average speaker driven with 1024 watts to do what my RF7's can do with 64 watts. Let that one sink in for a minute.

I can do with 16 watts what it takes most to do with 256 watts.

Make sure you are comparing apples to apples in your listening sessions with your customers. I suggest a SPL meter from Rat Shack to get the levels matched. It's not fair to accuse the Klipsch of pinching up when you are probably driving them 1/2 again as loud as the competition.

Until you sit in front of a pair of Wilson watt puppies, you really don't know what's in your music.

Great speakers for sure and better be for that kind of money. I think I'm pretty sure I know what's in my music though.

My point here is not to kick around your speaker's dude,I don't care to do that . But I personally don't like Klipsch.

That's cool.

Now we have a customer with an older pair of Klipsch reference, I didn't get the model but he runs them with a Proceed pre amp and Krell kav250a amp with Transparent reference xl wire that cost more then the speaker's do. They still don't sound that good.

Damn -- he really needs to get rid of that amp:)

They still are edgy and left and right.

Krell is great but not a good match with horns. It's probably a combination of factors leading to the bad sound. How old are the speakers? The Reference line has only been out for two years. Are you sure they aren't the old Heritage stuff? What do they look like?

I'm most likely the most ANAL person when it comes to setting up speakers.

It's good to be anal -- I can relate.

...if you got your speaker's to image...God bless you!! The new rf-7's are the best to date I feel Klipsch ever made and has come close to Imaging.

It's not difficult to get them to image.

"To achieve good imaging without a 'hole in the middle' do not place speakers father apart than the distance between you and the speakers. That is, not more than an equilateral triangle."

From the center of the cone on the left, to the center of the cone on the right is 7 feet. I sit 7 feet away.

I will give them this, those speaker's can rock better then most, if not all other speaker's in their class, that's one good thing I think they do.

Now we be communicating brother.

jcaut

The diagram above shows the coverage patterns of a horn loaded system and a direct radiator system. The horn loaded system makes it possible to focus desired levels of output directly at the listening area. With the direct radiator system, some of the output reaches the listening area, while the balance of the output bounces back into the listening area from the side walls, floors and ceiling, smearing the sound.

But I heard somewhere that that "direct--reflecting" business was a good thing

---

Sorry, that was a bad joke. Good explanation though, Dean; what you're saying makes sense.

Before I bought the RT800i's, I went to a local HiFi shop that carried Paradigm and Klipsch. I actually went to listen to the Paradigm studio series, but I got a demo of the Klipsch Reference series, too. The ones i listened to weren't the RF-7's, but the lower end of the Reference line (what, RF-3? I think. Comparable price to the 800i's). We were careful with the placement, even using a tape to measure the speaker to speaker to listening position distances, and toed them in a bit. To be fair, they were driving them with a mid-line Yamaha receiver, and I thought the Paradigms (on the same receiver) sounded a lot better. The only thing I could definitively say that the Klipsch's had going for them was the efficiency---They were LOUD at the same volume setting where we had been talking over the Paradigms.

As I said, I ended up buying the Polks, and I've been pleased as punch with them. These discussions probably are going to prompt me to go back and get a better demo on the RF-7's, just to say that I did.

Jason

mantis

Good responce Dean,
I'm glad i'm talking to someone who know's sound.Not many people can hold there own when I get started.I can go with the best of them forever on these subject's, But Personally we can talk about image, what it means to you and what has been written by speaker companies and reviewers, but when your at home setting up your gear, they can only be a guideline.Never once have I found in the thousands of system's I personally setup has all the so called rules applied.
1) the equal distance from one to the speaker's.No this doesn't always work.If you start at let's say 8 feet from tweeter to tweeter,or horn in your case,sometimes the image sound's compresed even if you toe off 3 degrees.I have played with Martin Logan's and they go against just about all the rules.I found that only a slight bit of toe in work's wonder's for them.I used to set them straight from the back wall, off it about 4 to 5 feet(if the room aloud),tricky speaker's.Wilson's are all about the watt,setting up the correct height of the tweeter to the listener.I have found fault in that theory as well.Vienna accoustics want you to set there speaker's just about in the corner of your room and out about 2 to 3 feet.This is weird as it just about work's.They do this cool little trick that I picked up on that for years I did consider.Ever try to set up Mirage??Now that will leave you shooting yourself in the face with a Bazooka.I also met with the Oner of Mirage and a couple of there tech's and they say the best way to set there speaker's up is to aline the perfectly straight from the back wall.Crazy **** but they do sound better that way then when you set them up toes into the seating area.Some Mirage do sound better toed in but thats bot what i want to get into.
Take your speaker and level it from front to back and side to side.Then raise up the front of the speaker5 degrees.If your speaker's are equal distances from each other and you,you will notice a slight evelated sound stage, singer's are taller and more open.You now can move back 1 foot further and get even better responce.This also let's more then one person listen to the speaker's with the same sound stage.
I learned this about 2 years ago when I met the Vienna Rep's.They were some sharp guy's who knew sound.They were so good they didn't even use a pressure meter to start a home theater set up.They did it all my ear.Amazing as I always believed that that could be done, even as extremely hard that is to do,Iv'e been trying that for years before I met them and came with in 1 to 2 db of all speaker's.
I have ton's of cool trick's I have learned over the years working in the bussiness.Before I did this as a professional,I was a musician who loved music and movies.I had home theater since dolby surround.I had one of the first Pioneer receiver's to carry dolby surround.
This month I'm going to Cedia.THX will be there and I'm taking classesfor 4 day's straight.I'm looking forward to meeting the THX staff.I'm also taking many other training cources there in room accustic's, theater setup rf dist, and a bunch of other thing's.
If you think it's hard to set up your own gear, try setting up hundred's and hundreds of different rooms with everything against them.But the Cedia show should be cool.Home entertainment is comming to New York this May, I will be there as well.Thats open to the public, Cedia isn't this year.I don't think cedia is ever open to the public as far as I know.
But anyway you can dissagree with me all you want, thats what this forum is about.I'm cool with it.
Dean why don't you trade them big horn loaded thing's in for some sweet sounding LSi15's(just kidding)They do sound pretty good though.
And you think you babble, i kill it!!
later!!

dean/klipschead

The Yahmaha receivers are a notoriously bad match for anything Klipsch. Awful, just plain awful.

Denon, Outlaw, and Onkyo seem to go over well with the majority of the Klipsch Forum members. I notice they are favored here as well.

I'm not a big fan of the RF3. It does sound brash. It shouldn't, but it does. It just seems voiced strange. The RB5 monitor, using the same driver and horn combo -- but with just one 8 - stomps all over it.

I like the Paradigm stuff. How would describe the difference in sound between the 800i and the Paradigm you heard?

mantis

I have listened to Paradigm's and they make a nice speaker for the money.They are a smooth speaker with tight bass.They compare to Polk's the dead horse say'e they are in better electronic stores.Iv'e heard them on Conrad Johnson tubes.Kiler simply killer.I love the smoothness of ther tweeter, and for the money they are hard to beat.
Dan

matthew_2

Dean, I like the RF3! It's a great speaker. And for my music, nothing beats it.

dean/klipschead

I hear you.

I think that room acoustics play the biggest part in determining how a speaker is ultimately going to be set up.

With horns, you toe them in 45 degrees! Yea baby, right on axis -- just like the graphic.



I then have them 2 1/2 feet off the side walls and 3 feet off the back wall.

The picture below shows my listening area. The speakers are closer together than they are now -- and I don't sit as far back. I used to have them 6 feet apart and I sat 12 feet back. I went through alot of experimentation before settling on my present setup. I'm a big advocate of the near field listening experience.

dean/klipschead

But I bet you're not using a Yahmaha receiver either!!

Everytime I hear those damn things they're on a Yahmaha.

jcaut

The Paradigms I listened to were the Monitor 11's (I said Studio series above-- sorry). I didn't get to compare them directly with the RT800i's, as this shop didn't carry Polk. As far as I could tell, though, the Paradigms sounded quite similar to the Polk 800's. They were (are) a little more efficient and seemed to have better low end extension (though the specs don't show it). They sounded good--very smooth in the upper registers, with good imaging and possibly a bit better than the Polks on the midbass/midrange interaction.

One of the negatives about them was that magnetic shielding cost extra-- Pretty much a deal-breaker for me. I liked the looks of the wood veneer on the Polks better. Overall I thought that the Rt800i's were just the best deal, for the money. Previous good experience with Polk didn't hurt, either.

Jason

mantis

Dean,
I like the ceiling it make's for good room accustic's.Is that a bed behind your chair??I agree they are to close together.And to close to the back wall, moving them out inch by inch would smooth out bass responce.I think this is a bedroom??I would also consider some corner trap's.The window need's some curtian's as well, to many reflecting point's with glass.
near feild listening experience????So that 'show you get them to image you use them as headphones, cool idea now why didn't i think of that!!!I guess I can learn something from a Klipschead,hince the name.So thats why you call yourself klipschead, you mean it!!
Dan
Ps....was that funny????

dean/klipschead

The house is a Cape Cod, so the whole upstairs is the bedroom.

Yea, the speakers are not setup like in the picture anymore. They are two feet further apart and another foot out, and the chair is moved forward.

I have blinds that pull down to cover the glass. I thought damping material (curtains) behind a speaker was bad? I was taught that the reflected sound from the wall behind the speaker adds depth to the image. Is this not true?

I mean, people without windows behind a speaker don't put damping back there, do they?

What would the corner traps do? Smooth out my bass response?

mantis

Dean,
Damping materail behind speaker's have mixed effect's sometimes it work's and sometime's it fail's.But glass is 2 reflective,it can color up your sound with 2 much reflection.The corner trap's smooth out bass responce.But again, playing with it can deturmine if it is the right thing to do.Take some big pillow's and stick them in the corner's of your front array,try them in the back of the room.corner's boost bass about 2 to 3 db.Sometime's this is a good thing.Refection's are good but sometimes make the music sound echo'y,I don't care for to many reflection's.
But to answer your question about people without window's behind there speaker's putting damping there...yes they do.It's not just the window, the wall does the same thing but glass reflect's more.
My advice is to just play with room accoustic's, you will be amazed on how different you can make you gear sound.But sometime's you can kill the sound to much and suficate your room.
Dan