Sonus Faber, ****.

Joey_V

Got the SF hooked up, I feel as if they are a bit too analytical.... hmmm..

The detail is abound, but at the cost of a tad bit (a weeeee bit) too much treble energy. I dont know.. they sound very good, but tend to turn most of my rap songs a little amusical.

Hmm...

I could just be source limited.

Airplay355

News flash. Rap is recorded so shittily there's no way it's gonna sound good. Maybe try a Ludacris SACD if you can. Recording is a huge part of how the music is going to sound. I think its your choice of material and not the speakers.

Joey_V

Rap sounded awesome on the LSi9 though... if that makes any sense.

I feel that it sounds good, but just a bit too much treble that makes some of the artist's voice sound unnatural.

The Concertos are definitely not as treble-happy as the Concertino, but still has a bit more than I feel it should. Perhaps I am just too spoiled by the Vifa tweets.

The one thing that I feel is in between the treble of the SF Concerto and the LSi9 is the Onix Ref 1.

On some recordings (ala Norah Jones), the Concerto just flex their muscle along with the Rotel and just blisters its way through my room in pure world-class audio fashion... a level at which I havent experienced before. I havent had this many goosebumps listening to music with any other speaker to date... but one thing still troubles me...

In some of my rap albums, I feel as if it has too much top end energy and detracts from the coherence of the track and makes some of the vocals seem unnatural compared to the 9s.

The midrange of the SF are significantly superior to the 9s and the bass control is a level above, but the vocals (in rap) are better in the 9s.

Will listen more for a better grasp onto this.

Joey_V

Zero wrote:

Unfortunately, your experiences is just the price you pay as you go into hi-fi.

DAMN IT!!

gregure

All this talk of Concertos, I feel I have to chime in.

First of all, Sonus Faber speakers are works of art. Hand crafted, artisan-made Italian speakers. No offense to listeners of rap, but they were not designed to ever playback rap, and cannot be judged by listening to rap through them.

Second, they do have a particular sound, some find them too detailed for their own tastes, some find them too "sweet." All of this aside, they are exceptionally made speakers, and absolutely cannot be dismissed as "sounding like crap." They are in a class entirely their own, and should never be dismissed as such. They may not playback all music equally well, but they certainly do not sound like crap.

That said, they are the type of speaker, as was mentioned, that are sensitive to the type of amplification used to run them, and they are the high-end type of speaker which will give you only what you put into it. In other words, you will readily notice the difference that better cables, interconnects, players, and recordings can bring you. Play crap, and they will sound like crap. Use **** cables, and you will get ****. Use a $150 CD player, and you will get such quality. Let's just give you a quick run down of how the Concerto's are setup at the Magnolia I work at.

Concerto Walnuts on FHIS stands (****' Heavy Iron Stands-a little joke)
-$2000
Primare A30.1 Integrated Amplifier
-$1500 clearance price
Primare CD 31
-$2500
Audioquest King Cobra Interconnects
-$175 for 1m
Audioquest CV6 speaker cable
$600 for 10ft/pr
Salamander Audio rack
$800
Total: $7575

Now, I dare anyone to listen to a good recording on this system and tell me it sounds like crap. Not your cup of tea, fine, but let's give credit where credit it due.

"And so ends my catechism."

Airplay355

I'm sure that audio rack has loads to do with the speakers performance

F1nut

gregure wrote:

All of this aside, they are exceptionally made speakers, and absolutely cannot be dismissed as "sounding like crap." They are in a class entirely their own, and should never be dismissed as such. They may not playback all music equally well, but they certainly do not sound like crap.

There is no correlation between "exceptionally made" and good sound and while they are certainly very nice speakers, they are not "in a class entirely their own." I've heard them sound great and sound like crap, which isn't unlike any other piece of gear or entire system. If there is no synergy, the end result sounds like crap and it doesn't matter what the gear is or the price point. For one to dismiss outright a persons opinion that they didn't sound good to them doesn't indicate a deep knowledge of all things audio.

F1nut

Joey_V wrote:

Got the SF hooked up, I feel as if they are a bit too analytical.... hmmm..

The detail is abound, but at the cost of a tad bit (a weeeee bit) too much treble energy. I dont know.. they sound very good, but tend to turn most of my rap songs a little amusical.

Hmm...

I could just be source limited.

You need to allow ample burn in time with these and any new piece of gear. Let them run 24/7 for a few hundred hours, then sit down to listen. I do agree with the others that these are not "rap" speakers, not at all. IMO, rap would probably sound best (if that's possible) thru something like CV's or the like.

gregure

F1nut wrote:

There is no correlation between "exceptionally made" and good sound and while they are certainly very nice speakers, they are not "in a class entirely their own." I've heard them sound great and sound like crap, which isn't unlike any other piece of gear or entire system. If there is no synergy, the end result sounds like crap and it doesn't matter what the gear is or the price point. For one to dismiss outright a persons opinion that they didn't sound good to them doesn't indicate a deep knowledge of all things audio.

Actually, I have every confidence I can dismiss someone else's opinion when it comes to things like this. For you to insinuate I don't have a deep knowledge of audio is simply offensive. And as I said, plainly, that if a speaker is not to someone's liking, fine, no problem, they are certainly entitled to their opinion. But for someone to sum up a speaker of that caliber by saying they "sounded like crap" with nothing to back it up, that is a sign of someone who does not know what they are talking about. Furthermore, for you to state that the quality of craftsmanship of a speaker has no correlation to its sound quality, well, know who is stating the preposterous? Any speaker can sound like crap when run off of inferior equipment, which totally undercuts your argument that they cannot be in a class of their own, just because they can sound like crap with the wrong gear.

I feel I made a valid point above in defending the quality of these speakers, and the necessity to understand that, as you put it, the synergy may be off, which is why it is important not to make rash, general comments about speakers without much of an argument. You guys on this forum have this knee-jerk reaction like no one should ever invalidate someone else's opinion, but at least come to the rescue when the opinion being attacked has some substance.

As for my inclusion of the stand in the system price: it's about presentation in the store. Given-no bearing on sound quality.

Joey_V

Gregure,

I dont know where you got the idea that I said they sounded like crap, if I said that - I didnt mean it was the speakers fault. More than anything, it is probably the fault of my source limitations and my choice in music.

I think the Concertos are very good speakers. When I feed this speaker a good track, it sounds a level or two above any bookshelf that I have heard so far, in terms of midrange detail, treble ease, and bass transients.

However, in my case.... I may have overshot in terms of speakers as I dont think I am ready for something of this caliber just as of yet. I havent received my Channel Islands VDA1 and VAC1 (DAC and Upgraded Power Supply Combo) to make matters worse.

It may also be that my music collection and preference may not be entirely in line with the SF Concerto... I dont know.

What I do know is that I find that some of my previously musical RB and hiphop tracks (on the 9s) are no longer musical on the Concerto - particularly because of the excess treble energy that makes it sound unnatural.

The SF Concerto may as well be my cup of tea for a good 60% of my music collection, but not my cup of tea for the remaining 40%... catch me?

I'm not saying it is crap, far from it. Perhaps I'm not ready for this level of a bookshelf just yet.

Gregure - you really need to calm down.

Joey_V

gregure wrote:

But for someone to sum up a speaker of that caliber by saying they "sounded like crap" with nothing to back it up, that is a sign of someone who does not know what they are talking about.

I hope you're not insinuating that I know nothing.

If you read my posts, I did not say anything about the speaker sounding like crap - I have always deferred back to my insufficient source or lack of synergy between hip hop and the Concertos.

Come on now. :rolleyes:

RuSsMaN

Good to know everyone is an expert. Thanks for shitting on the thread.

unbridled_id

Well then how about this: I have never heard the sonus fabers and at this point in time do not have the disposable income to procure them, but I can say without a shadow of a doubt......................... the rti's are a far superior speaker !!!! Alright I know enough about that.....

heiney9

Joey_V wrote:

Gregure,

I dont know where you got the idea that I said they sounded like crap, if I said that - I didnt mean it was the speakers fault. More than anything, it is probably the fault of my source limitations and my choice in music.

I think the Concertos are very good speakers. When I feed this speaker a good track, it sounds a level or two above any bookshelf that I have heard so far, in terms of midrange detail, treble ease, and bass transients.

However, in my case.... I may have overshot in terms of speakers as I dont think I am ready for something of this caliber just as of yet. I havent received my Channel Islands VDA1 and VAC1 (DAC and Upgraded Power Supply Combo) to make matters worse.

It may also be that my music collection and preference may not be entirely in line with the SF Concerto... I dont know.

What I do know is that I find that some of my previously musical RB and hiphop tracks (on the 9s) are no longer musical on the Concerto - particularly because of the excess treble energy that makes it sound unnatural.

The SF Concerto may as well be my cup of tea for a good 60% of my music collection, but not my cup of tea for the remaining 40%... catch me?

I'm not saying it is crap, far from it. Perhaps I'm not ready for this level of a bookshelf just yet.

Gregure - you really need to calm down.

Joey_V, an excellent self evaluation! Maybe you have "overshot" in your choice of speaks....but think of what fun it'll be to GROW into them. I wish I had your problem . Keep with it and you'll be rewarded. Garbage in = Garbage out. On my system there are some cd's I just don't listen to anymore, it's just a fact of this hobby.

Gregure, Very well written POV....some may not agree and certainly there can be a lot of "knee jerk" reactions on this forum (god knows I've been on both ends) but you made a very articulated response. Let the discussions continue...... :eek:

H9

shack

RuSsMaN wrote:

Good to know everyone is an expert. Thanks for shitting on the thread.

I listened to a really "out of this world" rig at a Holiday Inn Express last night...so I'm pretty sure I'm an expert about all things HI-FI now.

BTW...it sounded like crap....

gregure

zachwhite0 wrote:

I think sonus faber sounds like ****. Sorry I just do.

They have nice finishes though.

Just wanted to apologize to Joey V, as most of my argument was in reaction to the above quoted comment. I have a tendency to view the whole thread and respond to more than one comment. I did bring up rap because I don't think it's the SF's strong suit, and therefore not the best music to judge them. You were very clear in your statement that you like them for other music, and you gave fine support for why you prefer LSi 9 in certain cases. I respect that very much. Again, most of my first comment was targeted at the above quote, simply saying I don't think any fine speaker should be blatantly and categorically referred to as such. Hope you do not feel I was attacking you or your opinion, as that was not the case.

As for the comment about calming down, hey, some things I just take seriously, like unsupported opinions about subjects which we all clearly have an interest in. And when I am personally attacked from people using arguments that make no sense, and further support unsupported opinions, I feel the need to respond. And if that's shitting on a thread, so be it. I still feel I was raising good points, and keeping the discussion going.

George Grand

I have been taught that a truly accurate loudspeaker will faithfully reproduce all the sounds we can hear, regardless of how they are presented. Hence, my undying love for the AR products of the 60's and 70's.

I got to listen to the Concertina's quite a bit when Dean was still living a few doors down. I thought they were outstanding. He replaced them with the Maggie MMG's. I thought the Maggie's sounded better with the music we were listening to which was not RAP, that is for sure. I got the feeling the SF's would have been a better speaker from the all-around standpoint, but for the classical and jazz that Dean was listening to most often, the MMG's had the edge.

George Grand (of the Jersey Grands)

polkatese

My 2 cents, I thought it has been a relatively healthy discussions so far, and I do believe that everyone are entitled to their opinions. My experience has been with Grand Piano and Cremona, and they are definitely fit my musical taste (mainly jazz).

Gregure, has Domus arrived in your showroom yet?

Joey_V

Gregure,

Actually, it was my fault for misunderstanding the direction of you comment, so you can take the calm down part of my comment out of the equation. I dont remember that post so I must've skimmed it.

LOL...

And no... Heiney, you dont want to be in my position.

RuSsMaN

George Grand wrote:

...Hence, my undying love for the AR products of the 60's and 70's....

...Maggie MMG's. I thought the Maggie's sounded better with the music we were listening to ... I got the feeling the SF's would have been a better speaker from the all-around standpoint, but for the classical and jazz that Dean was listening to most often, the MMG's had the edge.

That's why I have both. Speaking of undying love for AR, spent last night listening to some LST-2's, with updated crossovers (original circuit, new components). I don't remember the whole story, but someone at AR did the updating, and put in all new tweeters and mid-domes from the last run of the original AR replacement stock (about 10-12 years ago).

What a treat. That, and I'll be picking them up sometime this week to make them my own, well, for a while anyway.

Cheers,
Russ

gregure

polkatese wrote:

My 2 cents, I thought it has been a relatively healthy discussions so far, and I do believe that everyone are entitled to their opinions. My experience has been with Grand Piano and Cremona, and they are definitely fit my musical taste (mainly jazz).

Gregure, has Domus arrived in your showroom yet?

Alas, no, the Domus have not yet arrived. I'm really anxious to hear them. We were told August by Sumiko, but the skew isn't even in our POS system yet, so I can't even get pricing info, as Sumiko hasn't published it on their website either. I'll post when they do arrive, as there are a few I've noticed who are interested. I'm expecting them to be the best of the entry level series yet, especially with the new Cremona-like design. Unfortunately, it's been difficult for our location to even sell through the clearance priced Home series. It's such a video driven market here. Too bad, audio is so much more fun to sell.

Joey_V

According to a local dealer here in Illinois, I know the pricing of the current Concert Domus line.

The Concertino Domus is $1500. The Concerto Domus is about $3800. The Grand Piano Domus is $4500.

Pretty pricey for "entry level"... stinkin' Italian speakers!! LOL..

unbridled_id

Would the concert series be above the domus series? The domus uses the ring tweeter and the concert uses the silk dome.

polkatese

please do let us know when they arrives, Gregure....

I really like the look of the entire Domus design, very classy...

Joey_V

The Domus is really the Concert Domus series replacing the Concert Home series.

George Grand

Nice little speakers the LST-2. Eat me, I'm jealous again.

I know a millionaire (maybe a BILLIONAIRE) from Belgium named Cyril. He owns an amusement park and a brewery over there, probably cause he couldn't get a job pumping gas. Anyhow, his beer is Domus. He paid for my wack job brother-in-law to fly to Belgium, so he could teach the guys in the amusement park restaurant how to cook fried chicken the way he does. He said he was drunk the whole time and that he never remembered teaching anybody to cook anything.

That is all. No wait, what does Domus mean?

George Grand (of the Jersey Grands)

unbridled_id

Hey joey v are you still selling those sonus fabers to get the onix ref 1 ???? I thought you preferred the lsi to the onix ?

F1nut

gregure wrote:

Actually, I have every confidence I can dismiss someone else's opinion when it comes to things like this. For you to insinuate I don't have a deep knowledge of audio is simply offensive.

Ummmmm...ok.

And as I said, plainly, that if a speaker is not to someone's liking, fine, no problem, they are certainly entitled to their opinion. But for someone to sum up a speaker of that caliber by saying they "sounded like crap" with nothing to back it up, that is a sign of someone who does not know what they are talking about.

So, which is it? Above you state you can dismiss another's opinion outright and then you say they are entitled to their opinion, but only if they can back it up. You can't have it both ways. I and many other audiophools I know commonly sum up the sound of gear with, "sounded like crap." This may be followed by a discussion on why or followed with a simple grunt. Bottom line, it's a simple, to the point comment which is no different than someone saying, "sounded great." Nothing more really needs to be said.

Furthermore, for you to state that the quality of craftsmanship of a speaker has no correlation to its sound quality, well, know who is stating the preposterous? Any speaker can sound like crap when run off of inferior equipment, which totally undercuts your argument that they cannot be in a class of their own, just because they can sound like crap with the wrong gear.

I stand by my comment. Two classic speakers of noted caliber are the Carver Amazings and the DQ-10's. Neither of them are close to "exceptional build quality" yet they have withstood the test of time and are still highly sought after for their quality of sound. While I agree that any speaker can sound bad when run on inferior gear that hardly undercuts my comment. For example, I have listened to the Aerial 20T's (exceptional build quality) in a multitude of enviroments, run with some of the biggest named, most expensive gear made and on both SS and tubes. Not once have they sounded good, I wanted them to, but alas no. It's possible that the ever elusive synergy needed for great sound hasn't been found with the Aerial's, but I gave up on them as they sounded like crap one too many times.

I feel I made a valid point above in defending the quality of these speakers, and the necessity to understand that, as you put it, the synergy may be off, which is why it is important not to make rash, general comments about speakers without much of an argument. You guys on this forum have this knee-jerk reaction like no one should ever invalidate someone else's opinion, but at least come to the rescue when the opinion being attacked has some substance.

It's audio, it's subjective at best. There is no black and white, no right or wrong. Be it a short phrase or a detailed paragraph, it's a valid opinion.

Knee-jerk reaction? Pot, kettle, black.

Joey_V

unbridled_id wrote:

Hey joey v are you still selling those sonus fabers to get the onix ref 1 ???? I thought you preferred the lsi to the onix ?

Entertaining the idea of the Ref1. They are very similar to the LSi9, except it doesnt have the midbass hump that I recognized once I got the SF Concertos. Plus the Ref1, from my listening session, had less weight on the vocals relative to the 9s while having more weight than the Concerto. I will have to listen again to make sure.

If worse comes to worse, I will end up with 9s or 15s.... LOL.

This is what happens though, when you are strapped for cash, you cant hoard speakers - you have to sell one for another.

I am making progress in my search though, I am looking into the Martin Logan Mosaics as a possibility.

Anyway... I think we are getting off topic - this is Russ' thread after all.

Sorry Russman!

gregure

"It's audio, it's subjective at best. There is no black and white, no right or wrong. Be it a short phrase or a detailed paragraph, it's a valid opinion.

Knee-jerk reaction? Pot, kettle, black."

Whatever.

You can pick it apart all you want. My argument was that an unsubstantiated opinion is subject to being invalidated unless it can be supported, otherwise what the hell is the point of sharing?

If you are willing to admit that a speaker is exceptionally built, how can you justify a blanket statement that it sounds like crap? Not to your liking perhaps, but I'm sure it has some sonic qualities if a company went to the trouble of dumping high quality parts and craftsmanship into it. Obviously somebody thought well enough of it to distribute it and charge a high cost to the consumer. Granted, it's all subjective.

And I'd hardly call my responses knee-jerk. I was called out and I responded.

Now can we quit this pissing contest and get back to the speakers?