Inside The Mind Of A $600 Subwoofer - You Saw It Coming!

dorokusai

William - Almost EVERY speaker manufacturer "cuts" certain corners, and I use that term lightly because they're are certain factors that simply don't matter that much for the end result.

If you are not in the business, you cannot possibly comment ON the business of manufacturing a product.....and specifically a niche market product. I can't, I'm an end user.

I'm not in the swing of things but I do think that SVS is a value as far as performance goes compared to the like minded competition. HSU and SVS have both turned a once segmented market into a slaughterhouse. Polk Audio, for one is not up to par in this category, period. Velodyne was the basic consumers benchmark, and they obviously stepped up their program recently with the Digital Drive series.

You can buy the parts for the "idea", no argument, but if you were so hardcore, we would see William Subwoofers. The value issue you talk about, multiple times, is an issue I don't quite understand, please explain. The fact that a lower dollar subwoofer could, and will perform equal to, if not better than some other more market apparent designs is just the nature of the game. You secure a couple monetary build specs and you're a manufacturer? So what, build it if you're that confident.

Do you honestly think a Carver subwoofer is worth the money? Please feel free to justify that opinion.

Do you think that the tube design of a subwoofer is NEW? It's been around before SVS and HSU as a DIY design.

The actual product cost of the SVS may in fact be lower than what you defer to in your post. Why is that?

DIY is typically a hardcore individual, or movement but also learned trial and error event. Those folks have committed themselves to "improve" upon a working design, or think out of the box....which is hard beings that so much groundwork exists currently. DIY kicks ****, I've never disregarded it, but sometimes it's about what you can do, and not about why.

Joey_V

I have the SVS PC+ and for the money - I cant do any better in terms of performance short of having a skilled DIY guy build me a sub at cost (without labor cost).

Sometimes I think people forget the man-hours it took to design a sub, build it to mil-spec, and then have the logistics to hold the parts in a warehouse and balance it with incoming orders... all the while, dealing with customer complaints, requests, and shipping fulfillments.

SVS, like any other company that is good, deserves their just profits.

I dont mind spending my hard-earned cash on something I cant do better with at my local hifi shops or via my personal DIY route.

Besides, William, how much do you think it cost to put together the monitor you are looking at, or the PC you are feeding off of? How about the car you drive?

You want to talk about parts piece by piece and you'll be disappointed in the astronomical pricetags we all pay for everyday tidbits. I'm sure my 24" monitor didnt cost Dell more than $300 to build, but for $650 - I'm happy.

tryrrthg

WilliamM2 wrote:

It's all personal preference. I've only heard a couple of SVS subs, and personally, I don't think they sound that great with music, but are spectacular in HT. Not my idea of "all-around".

I always seem to see this comment around the web. How can a sub that plays low, loud, and with very little distortion NOT sound good for music??? Chances are it wasn't set up correctly (room issues) or you have never heard your music reproduced that way (with low bass).

Disclaimer: I do not own or have ever owned any SVS or HSU subs, but I do know that the performance value per dollar on these subs is unbeatable (except DIY).

Willow

they obviously know what they are doing or wouldn't have the sales and glowing reviews peeps give them.

Early B.

tryrrthg wrote:

I always seem to see this comment around the web. How can a sub that plays low, loud, and with very little distortion NOT sound good for music??? Chances are it wasn't set up correctly (room issues) or you have never heard your music reproduced that way (with low bass).QUOTE]

From my experience with the PB12-ISD, it was great for HT, but OK for music. Again, no surprises here. With music, you want very tight, controlled bass with finesse, but with HT you want earth-shaking, bone-chilling bass (i.e., a little bit of boominess which is another term for distortion). SVS subs are clearly built for HT. Generally, audiophiles who want a musical sub for their two-channel systems don't buy an SVS.

VR3

HSU and SVS hold a market on their own. I never said they were the only subwoofers.

SVS, in my opinion offers the most choices, with the best bang for the buck in the OEM market. If you can build a subwoofer that is better, good for you man. I'll make sure you get a box of cookies in the morning.

tryrrthg

Early B. wrote:

Generally, audiophiles who want a musical sub for their two-channel systems don't buy an SVS.

That's becaues a lot of audiophiles are snobs and wouldn't buy HSU or SVS because they're not expensive or esoteric enough. And how many audiophiles have even heard an SVS? Probably not as many that have heard REL, Velodyne, etc.

Early B. wrote:

From my experience with the PB12-ISD, it was great for HT, but OK for music. Again, no surprises here. With music, you want very tight, controlled bass with finesse, but with HT you want earth-shaking, bone-chilling bass (i.e., a little bit of boominess which is another term for distortion).

Did you run frequency sweeps on your PB12-ISD to see how flat your in room response was? Did you experiment with placement or EQ to get the flattest response possible? Boominess can usually be caused by poor in room frequency response.

I agree with you about the HT vs. music thing. For HT you can pretty much put your sub whereever you want and it will perform great, but music is a little more difficult to get right. It will take a lot of tweaking. I'm not saying that SVS is great for music I'm just saying there are too many things to get right for people to dismiss them as not being "musical". "Tight, controlled bass with finesse" should be a cake walk for a sub that can play loud and with little distortion, as long as your frequency response and room are in check. In the end, with a good sub it will almost always be your room that determines how "musical" your sub is.

dorokusai

The whole musical subwoofer idea is ludicrous.

burdette

Vr3MxStyler2k3 wrote:

SVS uses 1/4" cylinders vs. 1/8" Sono tubes you can get else where.

I paid about $30 for 12' of 16" diameter tube - and the material is at least 1/4" thick - it might even be 3/8". I've not seen even smaller diameter tubes that were only 1/8" material thickness. I don't know where you got your information... and I can't speak to Hsu's materials, but any quality concrete former you buy for a tube sub is going to be thicker than 1/8".

My kids could stand on, roll around on, jump on, etc, the extra piece of tube and hardly even deform the shape.

That said - as for retail cost and DIY cost... as someone said, not everyone has the skills, tools, time or knowledge to design and build a DIY sub. You can save a LOT of money on a brake job, if you know how to do it, have the tools, can resurface the rotors, etc. We bought a dishwasher and Lowe's wanted (I think) $100 (maybe it was $50) to install it. I did it for a LOT less - but I happened to have the time, tools and knowledge. Heck, you can change the oil in you car for less than $10 - but how many of us change our own oil? I know I stopped once I had kids - I simply made the determination that my time and freedom were worth the expense of having someone else do it. We have friends who can't believe that we actually know how to paint a room and it looks "professional" - they pay a lot of money to have someone else do it.

Be wary of judging when others determine that they'd rather part with cash than give up time and put forth effort, oh eaters of TV dinners.

Schris22

Vr3MxStyler2k3 wrote:

HSU and SVS hold a market on their own. I never said they were the only subwoofers.

SVS, in my opinion offers the most choices, with the best bang for the buck in the OEM market. If you can build a subwoofer that is better, good for you man. I'll make sure you get a box of cookies in the morning.

Go ahead and send the cookies to me...should get to me by the end of the weekend...but go ahead have some cookies yourself...THanks for your help!

Oh and I have no opionion on the subject at hand....hah


Good luck in the feud....I will ahve to follow up and read on whats going on later after work.

Chris

VR3

How did this turn into this? This was an innocent attempt to show you folks the internal workings of a Class A subwoofer. Period and end.

And yes, HSU uses 1/8" tubing, I was reading an argument between SVS and HSU reps a while back on another forum.

Anyways, the pictures are on the first page. Everyone knows what benefits there is to do DIY. And if you don't think I know this, then I suggest you read up on my past posts - I'm all about doing it yourself. But I think support for certain brands are in order at some point. SVS deserves the title they have earned, and I have no issues supporting them what-so-ever.

Could I build a subwoofer for less? Yep... Sure could! No one cares.

Schris22

I care sid...I CARE!!!!

yeah i was wondering because I saw the first 6 or so post and then it turned ugly when i skipped to the end...

Chris

VR3

I dunno, I just like how SVS haters only argument is that 1) They arnt Musical... 2) DIY beats them.

I think we should shank them all in a public resturaunt!

burdette

Well, I'll pipe in the the side that believes that a good sub is a good sub, period. You don't HAVE to choose between 'musical' and 'good HT sub' unless you're cutting corners and have to choose between compromises - like maybe you have a warehouse full of drivers, and a warehouse full of enclosures, and they aren't optimal for each other, but hey, we can tune it for HT... boom boom.

I've heard SVS subs.... one of their models would have been a serious consideration had I not been cursed with the desire to build AND if money had not been an issue.

VR3

Yep....

I have tossed around making a DIY sub for some time, but mainly money constraints. If I make one, I will make a balls to the wall subwoofer. Like dual 12" Tumults... hmmm

michael_w

C'mon sid start rippin apart the walls and go infinate But how are you going to put a sock around that??

VR3

I COULD SOCK THE HOUSE!!!

That would be so killer... rain storm? Re-sock it...perfect

I could sock the hole...

jdhdiggs

Vr3MxStyler2k3 wrote:

I dunno, I just like how SVS haters only argument is that 1) They arnt Musical... 2) DIY beats them.

I think we should shank them all in a public resturaunt!

The best part of this is that they can't define "musical" because once they do, you can measure it and then the SVS' and HSU's of the world trounce the esoteric designs and then you have to go back to something else to justify the $$$... Thus they try to redefine "musical"

Also, judging an SVS with an ISD driver or the PB-10 and catagorizing the rest of them as sounding like those is ludicrous. If you can listen to a PB12-Ultra2 and say it's not "musical", well then I question you're capability for hearing.

As for DIY, from a parts perspective you could do it cheaper if you had the tools. I look at it this way though, DIY should be primarily for fun, not saving $$$. If I looked at builiding a PB12-Ultra2 clone, I would be out around $1K in parts and probably another $1K in my time and $2K in hospital bills and I'd have a sub that performs as well, looks like crap, and cost more... Joy! (which is the only reason I'd try it)

RuSsMaN

dorokusai wrote:

The whole musical subwoofer idea is ludicrous.

Not really. I think you need to just experience a truely musical one, to really 'hear' the difference. Think of a subwoofer that could 'keep up' with the Maggies for instance. You can't just put any sub in the mix, and expect it to blend. Or for that matter, any high-end monitor or satellite with small, quick drivers.

Vandersteen, JMLab, NHT, Legacy, Martin Logan, REL - fall into what I would call 'musical' subwoofers. Some don't play deep enough for the hardcore HT guy. I haven't heard the SVS box subs, only passive cylinders powered with Samson amps - not that you can't set them up for music and enjoy, but I personally would look elsewhere for a hardcore 2ch setup.

As far as bang for buck subs for HT and music, SVS, HSU, and the like (Dayton Titantic, Audire etc) offer a value that simply cannot be beat at the retail level. They 'own' the market, at pretty much every respective pricepoint (short of gruntball).

Just my opinions, I don't have fancy charts and graphs to 'prove' anything, just telling it as I hear it.

Cheers,
Russ

Early B.

Well said, Russ. A "musical sub" simply sounds quite different from your "made for HT subs." Keep in mind that a subwoofer is a speaker, and rarely will you find a speaker that can do it all. Subwoofers are no exception. It requires a paradigm shift to realize that.

dorokusai

RuSsMaN wrote:

Not really. I think you need to just experience a truely musical one, to really 'hear' the difference. Think of a subwoofer that could 'keep up' with the Maggies for instance. You can't just put any sub in the mix, and expect it to blend. Or for that matter, any high-end monitor or satellite with small, quick drivers.

Vandersteen, JMLab, NHT, Legacy, Martin Logan, REL - fall into what I would call 'musical' subwoofers. Some don't play deep enough for the hardcore HT guy. I haven't heard the SVS box subs, only passive cylinders powered with Samson amps - not that you can't set them up for music and enjoy, but I personally would look elsewhere for a hardcore 2ch setup.

As far as bang for buck subs for HT and music, SVS, HSU, and the like (Dayton Titantic, Audire etc) offer a value that simply cannot be beat at the retail level. They 'own' the market, at pretty much every respective pricepoint (short of gruntball).

Just my opinions, I don't have fancy charts and graphs to 'prove' anything, just telling it as I hear it.

Cheers,
Russ

I'll certainly give that some thought, but I still don't agree. I feel it's more of the actual application being right or wrong, than it is a sonic anomaly. If the subwoofer doesn't sound right, it simply doesn't sound right....I don't think it means it's not musical.

I'm using an SVS with the Magnepan currently, so that's my benchmark for now. I would certainly like to hear another subwoofer in the mix, as it would certainly be worthwhile.

danger boy

as a rule of thumb. i don't take apart any of my gear. i might f*ck it up. then what? a SVS woofer runs like $130 or more. I say it it's not broke. don't open it up. :P

Meeks32

I wonder why Svs has cast baskets on their ISD & Ultra drivers but not the plus line? It might not matter but I remember people used to rag on the W6 for still using stamped steel baskets & then JL switched to cast with their new line.

beardog03

I love my PC-Ultra..

It does it all well for me...

I`m sure there are better ones...and worse ones.....but for me this one is the best...




because I own it ,use it , and enjoy the **** out of it..!!

and no sid..I aint takin it apart...!

michael_w

Why do they sell the mmg so cheap if it costs them almost double to build than what they sell it for?

jdhdiggs

michael_w wrote:

Why do they sell the mmg so cheap if it costs them almost double to build than what they sell it for?

So you'll get hooked and buy the bigger ones!

As for SVS mixing with the mags, no problem. In the apt I had it set-up to where you could move the X-over on the SVS and not tell if the SVS or Mags were doing the bass until the x-over was above 100 Hz I'd say that blended well. (I mean moving the X-over while music is playing, not back and forth testing-This should be a more accurate test) I'll be gettting a PB12-Ultra to fill in from 40Hz down on the 2-Channel rig soon since the PB12-Plus/2 did so well.

VR3

Beardog,

The Ultra is an amazing woofer. You don't have to take it apart either - I've already taken one apart before. The Ultra is effing amazing, 45-50 pound woofer. The PC Ultra only weighs 80 pounds too...

jdhdiggs

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=566678

Try that link for a whole lot of hard data on a lot of subs (musical and not)

Mjr7531

I'd take apart my PB12-ISD/2, but I'm afraid I'd break my back.
It's kinda funny, anytime anybody comes into the basement to see my rig and hear it in action, they simply dismiss the sub as a packaging crate

maggiefan

:eek: Great pics Sid, we can have our fantisies through you!..LOL And yes, I would be chicken to take anything like that apart.... :eek:
Oh, what about your warranty?