SDA's Imaging and Soundstage
ND13
Posts: 7,601
Maybe I haven't been privy to the so-called " best of the best" speakers in the world. I mean, I've listened to some $50-60K sets before, more than once or twice, too. I just don't remember ever hearing any that had the imaging qualities and the immense soundstage that the SDAs can produce. Sure there are speakers with overall better SQ, but I can't remember any with better imaging and wider soudstage. Hell, I'm not even talking about the "Big Boys" either, just the 2Bs. Am I the only one that believes or hears this?
Okay then, let's say, in the vintage world of speakers, are there any other speakers out there, that can be had for equivalent $$$$, that can hold there own with the SDAs?
Okay then, let's say, in the vintage world of speakers, are there any other speakers out there, that can be had for equivalent $$$$, that can hold there own with the SDAs?
"SOME PEOPLE CALL ME MAURICE,
CAUSE I SPEAK OF THE POMPITIOUS OF LOVE"
CAUSE I SPEAK OF THE POMPITIOUS OF LOVE"
Post edited by ND13 on
Comments
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Yes, there are several depending on your taste in speakers.
I would put the Carver Amazings, and Maggies in that group quite easily. Some of the older klipsch lines are great to some people. Some Dahlquest model has an almost cult following...
There are others...
If you are talking about soundstage width, well then nothing should beat the SDA's unless you through a sonic holography generator in the chain, then just about any speaker can do that trick.There is no genuine justice in any scheme of feeding and coddling the loafer whose only ponderable energies are devoted wholly to reproduction. Nine-tenths of the rights he bellows for are really privileges and he does nothing to deserve them. We not only acquired a vast population of morons, we have inculcated all morons, old or young, with the doctrine that the decent and industrious people of the country are bound to support them for all time.-Menkin -
Originally posted by jdhdiggs
Yes, there are several depending on your taste in speakers.
I would put the Carver Amazings, and Maggies in that group quite easily. Some of the older klipsch lines are great to some people. Some Dahlquest model has an almost cult following...
There are others...
I had put those at the bottom of my post, save for the Klipsch and Dahls, but erased them so I wouldn't be leading the replies. I understand these if comparing with the larger SDAs, but what about the smaller sets? Can a set of any of those be had for....let's say $200-400 in decent condition?
Not just width, but depth, also."SOME PEOPLE CALL ME MAURICE,
CAUSE I SPEAK OF THE POMPITIOUS OF LOVE" -
I've seen some of the lower Amazings go in the $600+ range, but the really nice ones are over a grand (or two). The Dahls go for all over the place in price depending who has a bug up their collective behind. The smaller maggies can be had for a song from time to time with the MMG's being around $550 new and $350 used.
For your $$$ range, old Klipsch and tiny maggies would give up a fight.
As for depth of SS, the mags will win and be close on width without a SHG with the smaller SDA'sThere is no genuine justice in any scheme of feeding and coddling the loafer whose only ponderable energies are devoted wholly to reproduction. Nine-tenths of the rights he bellows for are really privileges and he does nothing to deserve them. We not only acquired a vast population of morons, we have inculcated all morons, old or young, with the doctrine that the decent and industrious people of the country are bound to support them for all time.-Menkin -
Originally posted by jdhdiggs
nothing should beat the SDA's unless you through a sonic holography generator in the chain, then just about any speaker can do that trick.
But the SH is very different than the SDA's, it's not as natural, IMO.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
I'd like to give some Maggies a try sometime. I've never been a horn fan, but have grown to tolerate them more and more over the years, so I'll probably pass on the Klipsch for now. I've always wanted a set of the Amazings since I got to hear them while I was in the Air Force. AAFES used to carry Carver gear back in the 80's, so I had plenty of chances to demo those.
Maybe, after I get the ASL tube amp, I'll be ready to let loose of some of the dozen or so pairs of speakers I have strewn about the house, and work out a trade or something to acquire a set of the Maggies or Amazings."SOME PEOPLE CALL ME MAURICE,
CAUSE I SPEAK OF THE POMPITIOUS OF LOVE" -
The only speaker that has EVER come even CLOSE to the SDA soundstage (for me), was a pair of mirror imaged DQ-10's.
Sound / tone aside, imo, nothing can beat the soundstage SDA's throw, when properly setup. Maggies throw a large stage, yes, but sometimes (in my experience) the size of certain instruments is TOO large, and unrealistic. The SDA's throw a large soundstage, but instrument placement AND size within that stage is the most believable I've ever heard.
Cheers,
RussCheck your lips at the door woman. Shake your hips like battleships. Yeah, all the white girls trip when I sing at Sunday service. -
Originally posted by RuSsMaN
The only speaker that has EVER come even CLOSE to the SDA soundstage (for me), was a pair of mirror imaged DQ-10's.
Sound / tone aside, imo, nothing can beat the soundstage SDA's throw, when properly setup. Maggies throw a large stage, yes, but sometimes (in my experience) the size of certain instruments is TOO large, and unrealistic. The SDA's throw a large soundstage, but instrument placement AND size within that stage is the most believable I've ever heard.
Cheers,
Russ
See, that's what I'm talking about, the imaging along with the soundstage. Either alone could possibly be trumped, but combined, it's hard to fathom something could beat them. I'm not saying there isn't, that's the reason for the post.
BTW, I had a chance to buy a pair of the DQ-10s just the other day. A friend of mine buys and sells old gear and offered them to me and I declined. I just got off the phone with him just a second ago and he just let them go on the bay for $379 BIN. I would have gotten them for considerably less. Did I make a mistake?"SOME PEOPLE CALL ME MAURICE,
CAUSE I SPEAK OF THE POMPITIOUS OF LOVE" -
Yeah Jesse, I know they're different, but the whole premise was skewed to start with. Sort of like if I asked if there where any narrow tower speakers under $400 that had greater than 103dB efficiency that would compete with Klipsch that are not pro audio.
I mean, no offense intended to ND13, but when you take one speaker with one exceptional charactoristic and then say that you are looking for something to compare to it in that one charactoristic, well, its a loaded question to start with.
Again, its what you like. example: I grew tired of the SDA as it didn't sound natural to me anymore and the body of the music went away. Before that I thought they were great.There is no genuine justice in any scheme of feeding and coddling the loafer whose only ponderable energies are devoted wholly to reproduction. Nine-tenths of the rights he bellows for are really privileges and he does nothing to deserve them. We not only acquired a vast population of morons, we have inculcated all morons, old or young, with the doctrine that the decent and industrious people of the country are bound to support them for all time.-Menkin -
I've owned or own everything mentioned previously and have to agree that the SDA is certainly the best in the bunch when it comes to soundstage. That being said, I haven't listened to my SDA's in many months. I would say the Magnepan and DQ10 are my next two favorite speakers in-house.
When you get used to the SDA or SH effect, it's hard to go back to a "typical" speaker. I found nary a difference in SH vs SDA, and what I did find, I attribute more to the use of the Carver gear than the SH effect.
There should always be one SDA in a speaker collection....but don't make it your only speaker.
CTC BBQ Amplifier, Sonic Frontiers Line3 Pre-Amplifier and Wadia 581 SACD player. Speakers? Always changing but for now, Mission Argonauts I picked up for $50 bucks, mint. -
Originally posted by jdhdiggs
Yeah Jesse, I know they're different, but the whole premise was skewed to start with. Sort of like if I asked if there where any narrow tower speakers under $400 that had greater than 103dB efficiency that would compete with Klipsch that are not pro audio.
I mean, no offense intended to ND13, but when you take one speaker with one exceptional charactoristic and then say that you are looking for something to compare to it in that one charactoristic, well, its a loaded question to start with.
Again, its what you like. example: I grew tired of the SDA as it didn't sound natural to me anymore and the body of the music went away. Before that I thought they were great.
I did not intend for it to be a loaded question. I know you don't know me, but I don't have alterior motives when I ask questions about audio gear. To me it's all about fun and listening pleasure, not I've got this and you don't thing or mine's better than yours, because it's WAAAAY to subjective of a topic for any clear victor. The only victor is the happy listener.
I posed this question to open up a few more alternatives for "MY" future, soon or not so soon, speaker purchases, which I have an almost scary addiction to. I never intended for anyone to get all bent out of shape over anyone's opinions. I look at it as a sort of brainstorming activity. I look to most of you for your opinions and knowledge, on subjects I've been away from for the last fifteen years, to help me get up to speed with what's happened or happening. I'm by no means an idiot or an expert when it comes to audio, just behind a little and it'll take a little time to catch up. But really, I prefer vintage gear over the modern stuff so my learning curve should be quick. I appreciate everyone's opinions on any thread I start and would hope that other's can do the same and not get into a pissing match over who's the most knowledgeable or who has this and that. This is supposed to be fun and educational at the same time so let's try to keep it that way. I don't post almost twelve times a day because I must, but because it's fun and I learn something new almost everyday."SOME PEOPLE CALL ME MAURICE,
CAUSE I SPEAK OF THE POMPITIOUS OF LOVE" -
No worries, just pointing out that with the criteria given, there really was only one answer. I was just trying to break down some of those walls and give some alternatives that were close to what you were looking for.
As for the DQ-10's, you should have at least put an ear to them.
There is no genuine justice in any scheme of feeding and coddling the loafer whose only ponderable energies are devoted wholly to reproduction. Nine-tenths of the rights he bellows for are really privileges and he does nothing to deserve them. We not only acquired a vast population of morons, we have inculcated all morons, old or young, with the doctrine that the decent and industrious people of the country are bound to support them for all time.-Menkin -
Originally posted by jdhdiggs
No worries, just pointing out that with the criteria given, there really was only one answer. I was just trying to break down some of those walls and give some alternatives that were close to what you were looking for.
As for the DQ-10's, you should have at least put an ear to them.
That's all I was looking for. Some alternative, affordable, vintage speakers. There really isn't a particular budget in mind, either. Just wanted to know if, let's say under $500, there is a quality speaker out there that can even come close to giving me the listening pleasure I receive from my 2Bs.
Thanks for you opinions, because they will be considered when I purchase my next set of speakers."SOME PEOPLE CALL ME MAURICE,
CAUSE I SPEAK OF THE POMPITIOUS OF LOVE" -
I also recommend to listen to the DQ-10 when it is time for you to look for another pair of legendary speakers. IMHO, they are very different from my SDA. They are more transparent and natural. However, they are very inefficient and a little weak in bass. All in all, I love them both.
-fredv- -
They are definetly inefficient, but that's easily fixed with solid power. I think the bass is perfect, strong and pretty accurate for a AS setup that's decades old, but mileage will vary from rig to rig.CTC BBQ Amplifier, Sonic Frontiers Line3 Pre-Amplifier and Wadia 581 SACD player. Speakers? Always changing but for now, Mission Argonauts I picked up for $50 bucks, mint.
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For the money, I concur with the DQ-10 recommendation. The soundstage width is not what SDA offers but the 3D effect is astounding......one of the best deals in used audio, IMO.
BDTI plan for the future. - F1Nut -
The width is there, if you get a mirror imaged pair. I've had 2 pairs stock, and 1 mirror imaged with the Regnar xover upgrades - there is a difference.
Cheers,
RussCheck your lips at the door woman. Shake your hips like battleships. Yeah, all the white girls trip when I sing at Sunday service. -
no argument there.....never heard the mirror imaged pair. The un mirrored soundstage is no slouch though
BDTI plan for the future. - F1Nut -
Exactly. That's what suprised me even more about the mirror imaged / upgraded pair. I wasn't expecting much of a difference at all, but it took a VERY good thing, and made it GREAT.
I might just keep the next pair, mirrored or not. Faaak.Check your lips at the door woman. Shake your hips like battleships. Yeah, all the white girls trip when I sing at Sunday service. -
You should keep them, aren't you our resident speaker freak?
I really like these Dahlquist and since they previously had the upgraded crossovers, I didn't have to show everyone how to solder.
I have the upgrade kits ready for them, but it's not very high on the to-do list.CTC BBQ Amplifier, Sonic Frontiers Line3 Pre-Amplifier and Wadia 581 SACD player. Speakers? Always changing but for now, Mission Argonauts I picked up for $50 bucks, mint. -
What's a fair price for the Dahls? How can you tell the difference between the mirror image and the stock?"SOME PEOPLE CALL ME MAURICE,
CAUSE I SPEAK OF THE POMPITIOUS OF LOVE" -
There is a pair of Dahlquist DQ10's on Ebay that claims having all the updates. There are some pics, no idea if they mean anything without an original to compare to, or someone who is intimate with them.Salk SoundScape 8's * Audio Research Reference 3 * Bottlehead Eros Phono * Park's Audio Budgie SUT * Krell KSA-250 * Harmonic Technology Pro 9+ * Signature Series Sonore Music Server w/Deux PS * Roon * Gustard R26 DAC / Singxer SU-6 DDC * Heavy Plinth Lenco L75 Idler Drive * AA MG-1 Linear Air Bearing Arm * AT33PTG/II & Denon 103R * Richard Gray 600S * NHT B-12d subs * GIK Acoustic Treatments * Sennheiser HD650 *
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Originally posted by SCompRacer
There is a pair of Dahlquist DQ10's on Ebay that claims having all the updates. There are some pics, no idea if they mean anything without an original to compare to, or someone who is intimate with them.
Damn, I should have picked up that set from my buddy when I had the chance. Could have gotten them for around $300 or so.
Thanks for the link."SOME PEOPLE CALL ME MAURICE,
CAUSE I SPEAK OF THE POMPITIOUS OF LOVE" -
Unfortunately for the high bidder, they aren't worth THAT much money. As far as the refurbished/upgrade pricing information goes, it's grossly inaccurate and inflated.
Oh well, buyer beware is the name of the game.CTC BBQ Amplifier, Sonic Frontiers Line3 Pre-Amplifier and Wadia 581 SACD player. Speakers? Always changing but for now, Mission Argonauts I picked up for $50 bucks, mint. -
I tried getting through that description but without paragraphs, it's tough reading. It appears she might be a real talker.Salk SoundScape 8's * Audio Research Reference 3 * Bottlehead Eros Phono * Park's Audio Budgie SUT * Krell KSA-250 * Harmonic Technology Pro 9+ * Signature Series Sonore Music Server w/Deux PS * Roon * Gustard R26 DAC / Singxer SU-6 DDC * Heavy Plinth Lenco L75 Idler Drive * AA MG-1 Linear Air Bearing Arm * AT33PTG/II & Denon 103R * Richard Gray 600S * NHT B-12d subs * GIK Acoustic Treatments * Sennheiser HD650 *
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Damn, $750.00! I should have sold Doro's when I had the chance.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
Originally posted by F1nut
Damn, $750.00! I should have sold Doro's when I had the chance.
:eek:
:eek: "SOME PEOPLE CALL ME MAURICE,
CAUSE I SPEAK OF THE POMPITIOUS OF LOVE" -
I've listened to a set that were significantly upgraded, with the mirror imaging and HUGE upgrades to the crossover, basically a total reinvention of the crossover unit with very high end caps, etc.Originally posted by RuSsMaN
Exactly. That's what suprised me even more about the mirror imaged / upgraded pair. I wasn't expecting much of a difference at all, but it took a VERY good thing, and made it GREAT.
I might just keep the next pair, mirrored or not. Faaak.
The owner also built up layers of acoustically inert damping material around the faces of the drivers, and had the DQ10s sitting on a pair of the original matching Dahlquist subwoofer units.
He was driving them through a pair of B&K Reference monoblocks, driven from a high-end Krell preamp.
The sound was unreal. I've listened to a lot of high end speakers and the only thing that even came close was a set of Avantgarde Duo hornspeakers driven from tube power.
So in short, DQ-10s can be amazing but they are best when heavily upgraded. -
I don't think they should be heavily upgraded, as it changes the entire character of the the speaker, and that's not the point. You won't find many heavily modified pairs of these, and that's the reason.
I'm sure it sounded great, but it's not neccesary.CTC BBQ Amplifier, Sonic Frontiers Line3 Pre-Amplifier and Wadia 581 SACD player. Speakers? Always changing but for now, Mission Argonauts I picked up for $50 bucks, mint. -
I agree with you 100%. I love the sound of the standard DQ10s, and I owned a set of DQM-909s at one time myself.Originally posted by dorokusai
I don't think they should be heavily upgraded, as it changes the entire character of the the speaker, and that's not the point. You won't find many heavily modified pairs of these, and that's the reason.
I'm sure it sounded great, but it's not neccesary.
This particular pair happened to be outstanding. My statement that they were "best when upgraded" is purely relative.
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Exactly Mark. All the DQ's 'need' (if anything at all) are simple component upgrades (quailty) to the crossover - keeping the original circuit intact - and mirror imaging.
These guys that pull drivers, replace drivers - guess what, you don't have DQ 10's anymore. John knew what he was doing, his speakers don't need to be rebuilt, but as with most mass produced speakers - simple tweaks / upgrades only make a proven design just the slightest bit better.Check your lips at the door woman. Shake your hips like battleships. Yeah, all the white girls trip when I sing at Sunday service.
