What is reference level?

Skynut

By the time I get mu Onkyo up to "Ref" level I can no longer stay in the room w/o ear plugs.
Is this normal?
It sounds real good but only from outside.
Do I have something set up wrong?
All speakers are set to large.
I am just curious what "REF" means on my rcvr.
Thanks.

michael_w

Are you asking what reference level is or how loud it is?

I think reference level is the volume at which the creator/mixer/producer guy intended for the soundtrack to be listened at. I belive that it varies from movies to music.

mulveling

For DVDs, THX reference level is where the average SPL reading during a movie would be about 85db. Peaks can go up to 105db (fronts/surrounds) and the LFE channel can go up to 115db. You can calibrate for this with an SPL meter set to "C" weighting and an Avia DVD - the test tone should read as 85db on the meter (careful - many other setup DVDs use a 75db calibration tone, so it you calibrate to 85db on these you will be 10db OVER reference level - ouch!).

Yep, this is indeed quite damned loud. Even 10db below reference (which is what Avia recommends for most homes) is quite loud, and what I try to use when possible (apartment dweller). However if I had my own home I would be quite tempted to do more of my viewing at near reference levels...

Skynut

All I know is it is too loud to listen to. I am going to try a movie tonight but as for music, way to loud.

DarqueKnight

Reference level can have several definitions depending on the application. One of the most common meanings refers to the actual sound level of the real live event being used as a reference for playback levels.

For example, if the sound level of an actual conversation were 90 dB, then playing a recording of the conversation at 90 dB would be playing the recording at "reference level".

You often see the term "reference level" applied to home theater systems, particularly when discussing a system's ability to play very loud sounds (>100 dB) and very low bass sounds accurately and without audible distortion.

mulveling

Originally posted by Skynut
All I know is it is too loud to listen to. I am going to try a movie tonight but as for music, way to loud.

THX reference level for DVD movies is not meant for music. CDs have a much smaller dynamic range than movies, so their average volume level is in fact quite a bit higher - I don't know the exact number but I would rekon at least 10db or so. So, playing a CD on a system dialed in for THX reference level would be at least 10 times louder (on average) than a reference level movie. Definitely way way too loud for the majority of music audiophiles.

dragon1952

Reference level is the point at which your neighbors "refer" you to the po-lice

AsSiMiLaTeD

Anyone ever made it all the way through Underworld at reference level...that's insane!!

Dennis Gardner

I've never made it all the way through Underworld, howdoes it end?:D

gregure

I asked a similar question at work the other day, noticing someone had turned the B&K Ref 50/200.7 combo up to 0 on the volume (mind you the volume starts at -96) and was shaking the whole store. I asked one of my co-workers exactly what the 0 stood for, and he answered "reference level" which is supposedly the level the unit is tested at, and the level at which the output is truly 200 wpc constantly. He also mentioned this is the volume at which a large theater room would probably be expected to output, but I still think it was way too loud.

When watching films at home on my B&K 507, I usually watch around -20 or -15, being plenty loud enough for me. I find I usually like music around that range, although some recordings need to be dialed down, and some, such as SACD Hybrid classical discs, I sometimes find myself inching up to -5. I've never even tried to touch 0, and probably won't ever have a reason to do so.

danger boy

since most all receiver/amps output differently as well as speakers and speaker placement. what at -15 to you might be average volume to someone else.

if you have a spl (sound pressure level meter) it might be easier to measure real volume.

if you listen to music as say.. 85 to 90db, and movies around 100db well then i have a perfect idea how loud you are talking about now. instead of -20 to -5

gregure

I don't really have the desire to spend time measuring sound output in dB. I'm not really that interested in finding out the exact volume, my only point was to illustrate that I listen well below 0, which is apparently B&K's idea of reference, however I wouldn't dream of going that loud in my house.

Skynut

Originally posted by dragon1952
Reference level is the point at which your neighbors "refer" you to the po-lice

Thats how loud it is, I could totally enjoy the music in the neighbors house.

Thanks for all the input, I am planning to buy a SPL meter soon and go through the calibration process in hopes of getting as close to movie realisim as possible.

My system sounds real good for HT but lacks a lot of definition with music. (Unless it is close to ref.)

Sami

Originally posted by gregure
I don't really have the desire to spend time measuring sound output in dB. I'm not really that interested in finding out the exact volume, my only point was to illustrate that I listen well below 0, which is apparently B&K's idea of reference, however I wouldn't dream of going that loud in my house.

DD Reference Level is totally different thing. You might not want to calibrate your system to reference level but you definately would want to calibrate all your speakers to same level. You don't want your mains be at half the volume as your surrounds are, or even worse your centre.

http://archive.avsforum.com/avs-vb/history/topic/411094-1.html

gregure

Thanks for the advice. I already used AVIA to calibrate my system. Didn't use an SPL, so I know it isn't perfect, but it's fine for where I'm living now. When I get my own home, I'll put more work into it, when I can set up my speakers properly. Of course, when that happens, I'll have a completely different speaker system as well.

jrlouie

Regarding that link to AVS forum, I did learn something there. It said to calibrate (for THX standards) at -20 on your volume to 85 dB. Well, I popped the Sound&Vision DVD in and got to the level calibration for Dolby Digital, turned it up to -20, and I could not get to 85 dB even if I turned my center channel up to +12.
Does this sound right?

I have an Onkyo AVR as the pre going to an Outlaw M200 for the center.

Dennis Gardner

Originally posted by jrlouie
Regarding that link to AVS forum, I did learn something there. It said to calibrate (for THX standards) at -20 on your volume to 85 dB.

This only works for processors that allow the volume scale to be adjusted. Not all receivers support this feature. You really can't use individual speaker level settings to get there.

jrlouie

Hmm, okay. I guess I'm confused. But it's not a big deal.
Basically I'm calibrating using the DVD so once the signal is being output (from the DVD), I can turn up the volume to -20 easily, just like if I was watching a DVD and turning it up.
So now I'm on -20, and then adjusting the individual levels just slightly, up a dB, down a dB, etc. But starting with the center, volume at -20, and slowly raising its output, I hit its max adjustment of +12 before reaching 85 dB. In fact, it's right at 69 dB. I just thought it seemed low.
Probably though I don't know what you mean by adjusting the "volume scale".

Dennis Gardner

Originally posted by jrlouie

Probably though I don't know what you mean by adjusting the "volume scale".

On some processors and top receivers, you can get the overall volume to reach a certain level that you want as a reference. When this volume level is reached, you are then allowed to set the volume scale to "0". This is your new calibrated reference and anything above or below that level is given as a + or - db. The channel settings are then used for small difference in volume between channels due to speaker type, distance,etc.

It is the same as zeroing a scale before you weigh your self.
Some receivers don't have this feature.

wallstreet

Originally posted by gregure
...

When watching films at home on my B&K 507, I usually watch around -20 or -15, being plenty loud enough for me. I find I usually like music around that range, although some recordings need to be dialed down, and some, such as SACD Hybrid classical discs, I sometimes find myself inching up to -5. I've never even tried to touch 0, and probably won't ever have a reason to do so.

I'm the same way on my 307. -15 is ideal. I've only gone to 0 on 2ch music to see how well the speakers performed under "duress". Damned if the speakers didn't say, "give me +5 baby!".

amulford

Originally posted by wallstreet
I'm the same way on my 307. -15 is ideal. I've only gone to 0 on 2ch music to see how well the speakers performed under "duress". Damned if the speakers didn't say, "give me +5 baby!".

Thass what I'M TALKIN' 'BOUT!!!

BrentMcGhee

Originally posted by Dennis Gardner
On some processors and top receivers, you can get the overall volume to reach a certain level that you want as a reference. When this volume level is reached, you are then allowed to set the volume scale to "0". This is your new calibrated reference and anything above or below that level is given as a + or - db. The channel settings are then used for small difference in volume between channels due to speaker type, distance,etc.

It is the same as zeroing a scale before you weigh your self.
Some receivers don't have this feature.

wow!! that is a really cool feature.... what brand of receivers can i find this on?

Dr. Spec

Dolby Reference Level = 105 dB bass peaks from speaker channels and 115 dB bass peaks from the LFE channel, at the listening position. If the speaks are set to small, the subwoofer must deliver all of this.

For consistency and convenience, calibrate with Avia to 85 dB in every channel at Master Volume 0.0.

Remember that DVD mastering levels are all over the board. Setting your master volume to 0.0 after Avia calibration on a Dolby Digital DVD does NOT ensure you will be listening at Dolby Reference Level. In fact you likely won't be. Underworld is indeed a good example. It is incredibly loud at -13 MV setting.

The only true way to ensure you are listening at RL is with an unweighted SPL meter (rare). If your meter is c-weighted (common) then add about 3 dB to the bass peaks to compensate for the c-weighted filter.

FWIW, most people tend to listen at anywhere from 10-15 dB below Reference Level, which would be 100-105 dB bass peaks at the listening position.

Personally I push things a bit higher, and generally listen at about 5 dB under RL, with bass peaks in the 110 dB region. This would be about 107 dB peaks on a sound meter.

Dialogue and average playback level probably hovers in the 80 dB region at this master volume setting, which is perfectly natural and comfortable. Since DVDs have such a high dynamic range, LFE sound effects can occasionally be very loud for a brief moment without making for an uncomfortably loud playback experience.

Doc

Skynut

Why thank you very much.
I need an SPL meter now and away I go.

Dennis Gardner

Ed (Dr. Spec) doesn't chime in very often, but when he does, I always seem to learn. I have always watched for his insights over at HTF.

Nice to hear from you, Ed.

Dennis

michael_w

Originally posted by Dennis Gardner
Ed (Dr. Spec) doesn't chime in very often, but when he does, I always seem to learn. I have always watched for his insights over at HTF.

Nice to hear from you, Ed.

Dennis

very true... he really does live up to the name Dr. Spec