The Aggrivations Of Loudspeaker Placement...

Tour2ma

Well now I have read where someone has...

One CD to the next??? effin' prefectionist..

VR3

Sadly I do that... but I always get pissed off...

I forget there is no use to improve upon a sucky recording...it will always be a sucky recording

Tour2ma

Nah... not the recording. It's that your DT's aren't mirror imaged...

VR3

Da*n...I knew it...

scottnbnj

Originally posted by Tour2ma
Well now I have read where someone has...

well, i don't change out gear much since i put my rack on a diet and i would change positions whether there were new gear or not, so it's not really an issue for me. but, it's interesting how rare the hardware review is that doesn't attach some attribute that is affected by placement.

heh heh, so maybe if we are both a little bit right, this might help to explain why there's always so much fine gear on the block.

Originally posted by Tour2ma
One CD to the next??? effin' prefectionist..

well, i don't really change speaker position from one cd to the next, i just recognize that with my gear, in my room that there is no one optimal placement for every cd. so, whatever the placement is will be a factor in the playlist,.. until i want to hear the magic of a particular cd that needs a different placement to make it happen.

)

scottnbnj

Originally posted by Vr3MxStyler2k3
Sadly I do that... but I always get pissed off...

I forget there is no use to improve upon a sucky recording...it will always be a sucky recording

one word, preset eq trims.

woo, that's three words. anyway, if you got'em, use 'em. sometimes they'll breath a little life into an unlistenable cd.

if all else fails, there's always reconfiguring your speaks from mirror imaged drivers to non-mirror imaged from one cd to the next too.

)

Gary Robertson

Hey i thought you came up with a great subject..it is very importamt .i misse all you guys man--i have been gone for awhile and its great to see all the same polkoids on here. ever notice when you get the placement just right you can sit in the hot spot and close your eyes and listen closely and point your finger to where the singer's voice is coming from. Then hold yur finger in place and then open your eyes and you will be blown away that the voice is right in the middle of the the speakers and on 2 channel there's not even a center channel but the voice is still there right in the center--an if the singer moves, you can notice-( depending on the P.A. set up in the studio ) the snare drum is about 10 feet or so behind the singer--such accurate placement of each musician---phenominal for 2 channel..
My RT 7's had to be placed kinda high maybe 5 feet up ad 3 feet from the wall and 8 feet apart which brings them about 2 feet fom the side walls. with the velodyne kinda close to the back wall behind the speakers with no carpet to suck up the sound.......................
The prodigy's were another story,,,very finiky even though they are bowed across the front it was a long drawn out proscess..i still have them toed in a little and way away from the walls--on these the soundstage changes critically even with the slightest lil' change.. I can't help but state the fact that those lli' polks RT-7's have such a phenominal imaging quality and they were about 8'000 dollars cheaper...ha,,go figure.
any way im exited about being back on here and looking forward to all the humorous and derogatory comments --i have been working on putting high end audio in my car lately--Have any of you ever seen Adcom's car audio amplifiers ?
Oh god man,,not bad at all..

VR3

Ah, I'm back folks...with more trials and tribulations and wow...some extra brain power...

Well, I must admit I have kind of grown shy of the audio scene, but alas - I am still messing with placement...constantly.

Ah, first on the list...

1) You've always been told that your speakers should be as far apart as they are from you! Well this is...by far wrong. This lil tweak gets props to Airplay. If you are in a small room, if your speakers have to be close to a side wall or any kind....to get the same distance apart as you are from them...then I recomend you move them about 1.5 feet from the side wall at the least - this will really help clean up your soundstage

2) Direct toe in can be a bad thing, you might want to also try an indirect toe in, where the tweeters fire to the out skirts of your ear, IE: fire right beside it (left side of the left ear)

3) Distance from the rear wall, this is REALLY over-looked, big time...the distance from the rear wall is crucial it seems, I just did this after reading someone doing it on the S&V board... and I will say the soundstage is much taller...and the sound is ALOT clearer...amazing difference

4) Heres one I overlooked for a while, if your main speakers are short, even SLIGHTLY lower than where your ears are placed, it is in your BEST INTEREST to TILT YOUR SPEAKERS UPWARDS! The slightest tilt up can change everything...trust me on this! Do it if you have short speakers! I've probally already mentioned this, but I'm sending you all a nice reminder!

VR3

Oh yeah...

Near-Field listening kicks absolute ****$.

Have a nice day.

gmorris

Near field listening has its benefits, I'll agree. I had my rig set up in the near field for about 3 months earlier this year, but ultimately ended up moving the chair further back. Near field can greatly increase transparency & detail, but, as was my case, in a small room, can hurt soundstage width. My soundfield was too small in the nearfield, so I ended up moving away from the speakers.

And as far as toeing OUT your speakers, Sid, you have to forget about that. It is a terrible idea. You are increasing side wall reflections by doing that. Bad..... It may give you an illusion of increased spaciouness or whatever, but in terms of us audiophile types, this is a bad idea.

VR3

I agree with you actually. If you note I said for -MOVIES-...and movies only.

And you also gotta remember I am running bipolar speakers, so when I toe mine out, I have two reflection points per speaker, one shooting to the right side of the room and one to the left (left main)...

You pair toeing out with a center channel and you get an incredibly WILD movie experience...its fun to try...

But yeah, for music...yuck...no, no detail what so ever!

gmorris

I've about given up on the RTi70's. I've fussed with placement now for over a year. I have the bass & midbass setup very well. Nice and balanced, with no boomy midbass, and a good degree of deep bass. It's just that the '70's have no transparency and NO depth.

Tryrrthg brought all his equipment up to my house a couple weeks ago, and it helped, but not much. Then, this past weekend, I was at his house. His system sounds fantastic, and his room is alot smaller than mine. This tells me that my room is alright, I just need new speakers. I'm starting to investigate new speakers, and I'm thinking bookshelf speakers. Tryrrthg's Dynaudio bookshelf speakers probably make better bass than the '70's anyway.

VR3

Yeah I'm glad I got rid of my RTi70 when I did... (as I found alot of things you found, except their high end angered me more than anything - I mean...where was the drums and guitar? Absolutely flat sounding...) I am much happier with my Definitives, even getting close to the one year anniversery...which has never happened with my mains...they either get booted to the surrounds or are replaced...

No signs of upgrades yet, unless its for larger DTs... I wanna hear Danes!

Gary Robertson

I found that different cables each need different speaker placement.--at times i actually thought i was gonna wear holes in the carpet from moving the speakers around so much. ha,ha.

VR3

Where have YOU been dude? Jeez...

I actually could believe that...cables changed my system to a large degree...so I could definetely see that happening...

Anything changed in your system? Still hanging on to the GFA's?

Gary Robertson

yeah the GFA's are still kickin..gotta love'em theyre just so damn clean sounding..i been working out of town but never the less playing with my car audio---alpine with eclipse amps and mb quart speakers not bad for a pilfrige item..ha ha,, two Jl audio 10's

tryrrthg

as gmorris has said, my room is SMALL. 10.5' by 11.5'. I sit against the back wall, speakers are on the short wall. I have TONS of room gain so it was hard to get rid of the bloated bass. It took me MANY weeks of agrivation, but I've found a good balance. I still have some bloat at certain frequencies but it's pretty balanced (to my ears anyway).

I've gotten lucky and found a good spot for my speakers. I had the most success following the guidelines in the two links below. I did not however mess with seating position (I was limited to one spot), or toe in. I don't need no stinking toe in. my speakers image like **** and they seem to sound their best firing straight forward.

http://www.immediasound.com/Speakersetup.html

http://www.audioasylum.com/scripts/d.pl?audio/faq/audiophysic.html

the gist of it is, even spots in your room reinforce bass while the odd spots do not. I went for odd spots and it has worked out very well. speakers are 45" from the rear wall (to front of speaker) and 21.5" from the side wall (to outside edge of speaker). I get a nice balance of bass and soundstage size. My small room does not seem to effect how large my system sounds anymore. It sounds HUGE in a little room. which makes me wonder what it could do in a bigger room... someday maybe...

gmorris

he's right.... his system sounds huge in that tiny room. this leads me to believe my speakers are inadequate.

Early B.

Yeah, my speakers on the 2-channel system sound better facing straight ahead, too. If I toe them in, the sound is too much in my face and the soundstage narrows.

Nice article on speaker placement, tryrrthg. I still looking for an article that offers real world advice. For instance, most people don't have the luxury of setting up speakers in their rooms optimally or even close to being optimal. Lots of reasons, of course.

In my case, the only location for my speakers is a couple of inches from the back wall, which, incidentally, both rear ports are firing into windows!! That's probably one of the worst combinations you can have. I can't move the system in another room or re-arrange the room or move the speakers forward whenever I listen to music. I have a similar situation with my HT fronts. So I just have to work with what I've got for now. I know I'm not alone on this issue. So if any of you guys run across ideas for mitigating major speaker placement violations, please let us know.

Airplay355

was i the **** who started this hole mess by tellin u to move them closer together?

heiney9

Originally posted by Vr3MxStyler2k3
Ah, I'm back folks...with more trials and tribulations and wow...some extra brain power...

3) Distance from the rear wall, this is REALLY over-looked, big time...the distance from the rear wall is crucial it seems, I just did this after reading someone doing it on the S&V board... and I will say the soundstage is much taller...and the sound is ALOT clearer...amazing difference

The difference can be quite startling. I've been tweaking distance between the speaker and the wall behind them and it does make a difference, especially in the area of bass response.

With my RTA-11's the best imaging is acheived when the speakers are faced directly forward. I believe the MTM design dictates this placement. The '11's toed in or out even slightly collaspes the sound stage quite a bit.

FWIW

H9

Gary Robertson

It's sur nice to see more Adcom freaks
other than myself on here Adcom's DAC's are phenominal..

dragon1952

I found my optimum speaker placement some time ago but every once in awhile I get the urge to screw with it some more and every time I kick myself in the **** and end up with them exactly back where they were. I have found that this is the absolute only place they work for me. If I even mess with the toe-in 1/8" or move them slightly closer together it screws up the imaging and mushes up the bass. The optimal speaker placement for my room and system (if anybody gives a rats ****) happens to be 5' 4" apart from center to center which ends up being almost exact half the distance to my ears when I'm sitting in the sweet spot. They are 15" each to the side of my audio rack and 28" from the rear wall. The toe-in is approximately 1 1/2"-1 3/4". The room is 14' long and 11 ft wide. I just feel sorry for those who don't have a dedicated listening room and have to place their speakers to suit the decor or wife. It can screw up the whole thing royally and turn a great system into a very mediocre one. Like people have said previously, if you have the option to play with your speaker placement and haven't I strongly urge you to do so before doing any other tweaks whatsoever.

VR3

I'm back!!!

I had the weirdest idea today...

In my room, there is a blur in the center stage - great vocals, but the backstage behind the vocals is never really clear and the cymbals seem to smear...

This all goes back to my room being way to small for what I own - so anyways...

I started moving my speakers inward - infact, I moved them in 11" and moved them forwards 1" (2 feet from rear walls - 18.75" from side walls)...

The coolest part about this... the soundstage is exactly the same width as it was before - probally because the bipolar array has alot more breathing room and is working a bit better...

But some immediate differences was the focus... the detail. The cymbals are much clearer - instruments are more focused and laid out...

I love it...

Cant stress it enough... if your in a small room - getting your speakers AWAY from the side walls far out-weighs the distance between them...

Oh yeah, Toe in and Tilting is uber important too!