The Aggrivations Of Loudspeaker Placement...

VR3
VR3 Posts: 28,641
edited October 2005 in 2 Channel Audio
I'm not 100% sure why I am making this post...

But I would like to pass on the importance of placement, even if you already knew it. I think it is worth a reminder.

I never really thought much of placement, and I never really figured that once I found a stellar position, that I could improve upon it...

Well, my current speakers constantly remind me of what placement does/can do... everytime these things are moved, the sound changes...

From moving them closer to the wall, to moving them farther, everything seems to have a change.

For instance, I was reading on the internet that with bipolar speakers if you have them to far from the wall, the soundstage will lose depth and slurr together, well hey - I've been noticing something similar to this for quite some time, so I go and move my speakers back about 7" to get them around 17-18" from the rear wall. This worked wonders, the soundstage cleared up even more, the depth part of it I havnt really paid attention to, but the clarity between instruments is much better...

That is just one part of the battle, depth - depth from the wall is very important to how your speakers soundstage....

Another importance is the distance apart, your ears can depict how far your speakers are apart, this is why we have SPL meters to make sure our speakers are playing at the same volume, and this can make or break a system right there....

Then we have toe in and toe out...

Many are thinking... (toe out??) - well yeah, toe out, I would have to say Toe out is for those that dont ever listen to music or listen to music critically... you completely surrender the center image, but you gain one wicked soundstage that allows the center and mains to blend VERY seamlessly, I mean like one drops off, then the other picks it up and hands it off to the other. THis equates to a very blended frontstage during a movie I have found, you should try it sometime...

EDIT: Only good for movies ;)

Now toe in seems to be another one, I am unsure of old speakers, some of them are made to be pointed straight ahead (ala, SDA) - while I find that speakers now adays that are 8-9" wide are designed to be pointed DIRECTLY at the listener as Russ has pointed out. The detail, clarity and texture this gives you is amazing, not to mention how the soundstage comes together when you do this.... This was one of the bigger improvements in my system....

Placement is aggrivating, but it is also one of the more interesting things of this hobby... Everyone should dick around with placement every once in a while, and just because your system is setup for perfection dosnt mean it is perfect for your room ;)
- Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
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  • audiobliss
    audiobliss Posts: 12,518
    edited April 2005
    Ok, ok....I just toed-in my left speaker a 1/2"....ya happy now?! :p

    I can see that placement would have a great affect on the sound of your music. However, I really don't have much space to play with. My left speaker is toed in, almost poing directly at the listening position. My right speaker, on the other hand, is point straight ahead.....to a point about 3 feet to the right of my listening position.

    All well, I guess I'm not a critical listener....sounds fine to me....:D
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  • dragon1952
    dragon1952 Posts: 4,899
    edited April 2005
    Everyone should dick around with placement

    Throwing around those technical terms again, eh? :D
    2 channel - Willsenton R8 tube integrated, Holo Audio Spring 3 KTE DAC, audio optimized NUC7i5, Windows 10 Pro/JRiver MC29/Fidelizer Plus 8.7 w/LPS and external SSD drive, PS Audio PerfectWave P3 regenerator, KEF R3 speakers, Rythmik F12SE subwoofer, Audioquest Diamond USB cable, Gabriel Gold IC's, Morrow Audio SP5 speaker cables. Computer - Windows 10/JRiver, Schiit Magni 3+/Modi 3+, Fostex PMO.4n monitors, Sennheiser HD600 headphones
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  • gmorris
    gmorris Posts: 1,179
    edited April 2005
    Sid, i'm right there with you on this one. i think i've posted more th'ds than anyone about my placement battles.

    One thing you haven't mentioned is how placement relative to the side & back walls affects bass. Deep bass and mid & upper bass all change drastically with distance relative to the walls. Your listening position in the room has as much to do with imaging & bass response as the speakers position.

    Another thing that will clear up things is reducing the mid to upper bass, if your mid to upper bass is muddying things to begin with. The quickest way to lessen a mid to upper bass boom is to push the speakers away from the side walls. Another effective way is to move the critical listening spot.

    I've been moving my speakers and chair around little by little for almost 2 years now, and I still haven't found a perfect arrangement yet. My current arrangement yields great deep bass, great imaging & soundstaging, but has a quite annoying upper bass hump. I don't think I'll ever get it figured out in my current room because it is so small.
    Bob Mayo, on the keyboards. Bob Mayo.
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  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,641
    edited April 2005
    Yeah, I am tackling side wall placement too, I cant mess with that to much in my small room, but I moved them out from the side walls a lil over a foot.

    I flat out need a bigger room...lol
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
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  • Early B.
    Early B. Posts: 7,900
    edited April 2005
    Sid -- put those speakers back where they were and stop foolin' around with placement.:p You got it right the first time.

    I've found that whenever I dick with placement, I always eventually put them right back where they were. The reason is because, at first, they appear to sound "better" when I move them, but it's really just a change in the sound that I'm noticing, but when I put them back in their original position, it always sounds sweeter there.

    Another consideration is aesthetics. Yeah, yeah -- I know some of you purists don't give a damn, but in some small way, what looks good sounds good. I'd love to place my speakers an extra foot away from the wall, but that ain't practical. It would look bad, too, and it would distract from the listening experience. Besides, gotta keep the peace with the WAF.
    HT/2-channel Rig: Sony 50” LCD TV; Toshiba HD-A2 DVD player; Emotiva LMC-1 pre/pro; Rogue Audio M-120 monoblocks (modded); Placette RVC; Emotiva LPA-1 amp; Bada HD-22 tube CDP (modded); VMPS Tower II SE (fronts); DIY Clearwave Dynamic 4CC (center); Wharfedale Opus Tri-Surrounds (rear); and VMPS 215 sub

    "God grooves with tubes."
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  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,641
    edited April 2005
    Eventually they will probally go back in the original position, but if I kept my system alone to long I would get bored... nice to have a change in sound...

    And the bipolar speakers change completely with each different placement, part of the reason I like the design so much... nothing else is like it.
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
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  • Tour2ma
    Tour2ma Posts: 10,177
    edited April 2005
    Toe-out is just negative toe-in...
    More later,
    Tour...
    Vox Copuli
    Better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. - Old English Proverb

    "Death doesn't come with a Uhaul." - Dennis Gardner
    "It's easy to get lost in price vs performance vs ego vs illusion." - doro
    "There is a certain entertainment value in ripping the occaisonal (sic) buttmunch..." - TroyD
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  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,641
    edited April 2005
    ...Thanks for clearing that up! ;)

    Toe out is effective for HT only...
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
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  • jmierzur
    jmierzur Posts: 489
    edited April 2005
    Originally posted by Early B.
    ...

    Another consideration is aesthetics. Yeah, yeah -- I know some of you purists don't give a damn, but in some small way, what looks good sounds good. I'd love to place my speakers an extra foot away from the wall, but that ain't practical. It would look bad, too, and it would distract from the listening experience. Besides, gotta keep the peace with the WAF.

    :eek: !! I am at a loss for words after reading these statements. ;)
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  • gmorris
    gmorris Posts: 1,179
    edited April 2005
    Originally posted by jmierzur
    :eek: !! I am at a loss for words after reading these statements. ;)


    I agree, aesthetics are the least important aspect of your two channel system. Young Trey has no wife to worry about. He should setup his system for the optimal sound quality.

    In the opinion of many experts, you will hear many times that the room is the most important component of any stereo system. You can have all the fancy equipment you want, but if the speakers are not setup in the room optimally, it will sound no better than a BOSE system.
    Bob Mayo, on the keyboards. Bob Mayo.
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  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,641
    edited April 2005
    Thats what I do...

    I mean I have stripped my room down from all of its vital furniture, put it between closet and under the bed shelving, put my desk in the closet..... only pieces of furntiture in it are the TV stand and futon...

    Each main has about a 2x2 space to be moved around in...

    And I agree, looks shouldnt matter. If you gotta even things out when moving the mains out from the side wall, put a plant or something behind them.

    Heck, that will even help calm reflections ;)
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
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  • Early B.
    Early B. Posts: 7,900
    edited April 2005
    I agree, aesthetics are the least important aspect of your two channel system.
    Try explaining that concept to my wife.

    Those of you who are not married or have a tolerant wife or have a man-cave -- yeah, that statement may be true. But if your 2-channel system is set up in the living room that your wife re-decorated last year with all new furniture, new carpet, new art work and a new paint job, you gotta make concessions.
    HT/2-channel Rig: Sony 50” LCD TV; Toshiba HD-A2 DVD player; Emotiva LMC-1 pre/pro; Rogue Audio M-120 monoblocks (modded); Placette RVC; Emotiva LPA-1 amp; Bada HD-22 tube CDP (modded); VMPS Tower II SE (fronts); DIY Clearwave Dynamic 4CC (center); Wharfedale Opus Tri-Surrounds (rear); and VMPS 215 sub

    "God grooves with tubes."
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  • gmorris
    gmorris Posts: 1,179
    edited April 2005
    Originally posted by Early B.
    Try explaining that concept to my wife.

    Those of you who are not married or have a tolerant wife or have a man-cave -- yeah, that statement may be true. But if your 2-channel system is set up in the living room that your wife re-decorated last year with all new furniture, new carpet, new art work and a new paint job, you gotta make concessions.


    Agreed. I guess I'm lucky, I've got a tolerant fiancee (soon to be wife, in August) and my man-cave.

    But I'll bet, even with the restrictions imposed by the WAF, you could still end up with a setup that favors sound quality over aesthetics.
    Bob Mayo, on the keyboards. Bob Mayo.
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  • Early B.
    Early B. Posts: 7,900
    edited April 2005
    But I'll bet, even with the restrictions imposed by the WAF, you could still end up with a setup that favors sound quality over aesthetics.
    Actually, my wife twisted my arm, put me a choke hold and forced me to upgrade by buying speakers that fit into her decor.:p Looks great, sounds great. Everybody's a winner.

    Now this thread is about the aggravations of placement. My speakers aren't optimally placed for reasons already mentioned. Hell, the room ain't even close to optimal, either, but I gotta work with it anyways. My aggravation is that due to the room configuration and WAF, placement options are extremely limited.
    HT/2-channel Rig: Sony 50” LCD TV; Toshiba HD-A2 DVD player; Emotiva LMC-1 pre/pro; Rogue Audio M-120 monoblocks (modded); Placette RVC; Emotiva LPA-1 amp; Bada HD-22 tube CDP (modded); VMPS Tower II SE (fronts); DIY Clearwave Dynamic 4CC (center); Wharfedale Opus Tri-Surrounds (rear); and VMPS 215 sub

    "God grooves with tubes."
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  • Tour2ma
    Tour2ma Posts: 10,177
    edited April 2005
    Originally posted by gmorris
    Agreed. I guess I'm lucky, I've got a tolerant fiancee (soon to be wife, in August)...
    That second ring can change things... ;)
    More later,
    Tour...
    Vox Copuli
    Better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. - Old English Proverb

    "Death doesn't come with a Uhaul." - Dennis Gardner
    "It's easy to get lost in price vs performance vs ego vs illusion." - doro
    "There is a certain entertainment value in ripping the occaisonal (sic) buttmunch..." - TroyD
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  • jdhdiggs
    jdhdiggs Posts: 4,305
    edited April 2005
    Originally posted by Tour2ma
    That second ring can change things... ;)
    +1 one on that. My wife hasn't seen the new speaks yet, that'll be fun...

    As always, It's easier to ask forgiveness then permission...
    There is no genuine justice in any scheme of feeding and coddling the loafer whose only ponderable energies are devoted wholly to reproduction. Nine-tenths of the rights he bellows for are really privileges and he does nothing to deserve them. We not only acquired a vast population of morons, we have inculcated all morons, old or young, with the doctrine that the decent and industrious people of the country are bound to support them for all time.-Menkin
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  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,641
    edited April 2005
    This reminds me of something I saw in a movie (atleast, I think it was a movie)...

    "I'm a man! I'm weak! (looks over shoulder at the big 1.2tls) - I didn't want to buy them, but I looked in the window and they were just staring back at me *awwww*, I tell you I'm a weak weak man and you should punish me!"
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
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  • gmorris
    gmorris Posts: 1,179
    edited April 2005
    Originally posted by Tour2ma
    That second ring can change things... ;)

    You know what the 3 rings of marriage are don't you?

    Engagement Ring
    Wedding Ring
    Suffering
    Bob Mayo, on the keyboards. Bob Mayo.
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  • tryrrthg
    tryrrthg Posts: 1,896
    edited April 2005
    Originally posted by Tour2ma
    That second ring can change things... ;)
    I got lucky, my wife doesn't like "fat" rings so I didn't have to buy a wedding band/ring for her. I bought an amp with the money instead! :D
    Sony KDL-40V2500 HDTV, Rotel RSX-1067 Receiver, Sony BDP-S550 Blu-ray, Slim Devices Squeezebox, Polk RTi6, CSi3 & R15, DIY sub with Atlas 15
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,165
    edited April 2005
    Speaker placement _IS_ an ongoing battle for me also. Now I seem to have the best set up so far. My leather couch actually has a slight sag in the cushion where I constantly sit (in the sweet spot). This is the pefect spot to sit for the best imaging and soundstaging. A few inches right or left still sounds good, but it's not optimal. I turn the lights off at night and sit there with my eyes closed and the speakers completely disappear. It's such a great experience. I believe the RTA-11's need to be pointed straight ahead not toe in or out. I think it has something to do with the MTM array. Sometimes I think I have SDA's :p

    I've also been experimenting with distance from the wall. The farther out they are the better the soundstage and midrange. I have them about 4-5 feet from the side walls so the bass is tight and low and not muddy at all. This is the best set-up so far and in my current room there is no better place to put them.

    Anybody ever moved to a new residence becausee the old one didn't cut it soundwise? <Ha Ha>

    Placement is just as important if not more than tweaked cables or power cords or isolation devices. Those things should come after speakers are set-up to perform their best, IMHO.

    Heiney9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • audiobliss
    audiobliss Posts: 12,518
    edited April 2005
    Originally posted by heiney9
    Placement is just as important if not more than tweaked cables or power cords or isolation devices. Those things should come after speakers are set-up to perform their best, IMHO.


    I agree; however, I've done neither.
    George Grand wrote: »
    Jstas wrote: »
    Simple question. If you had a cool million bucks, what would you do with it?
    Wonder WTF happened to the rest of my money.
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  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,641
    edited April 2005
    I disagree, you cant rightfully place your speakers if there is a weak link in the system...your speakers arnt performing top notch and therefore cant be placed to be playing top notch (IMO, of course)
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,165
    edited April 2005
    Originally posted by Vr3MxStyler2k3
    I disagree, you cant rightfully place your speakers if there is a weak link in the system...your speakers arnt performing top notch and therefore cant be placed to be playing top notch (IMO, of course)

    I know, I know...which came first the chicken or the egg?? :)

    But maybe you are trying to upgrade a weak link that would not be weak, or near as weak, if your speakers were placed properly. You have to have a reference/starting point, and placing the speakers optimally only makes sense to me, then work on the weak links, IMO.

    Heiney9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • audiobliss
    audiobliss Posts: 12,518
    edited April 2005
    Look at it this way: No matter how much money you've put into speaker cables, power cables, interconnects, isolation and dampint materials, electronic mods on all your equipment, etc, etc., if they're not placed (from walls and toe-in) correctly, they'll NEVER blend together and offer you the soundstage and depth that you want. However, even if you have a meager system like mine, for example, with a Yammy receiver and Klipsch speakers and RS speaker wire, placement can do wonders for the soundstage, depth, imaging, etc.
    George Grand wrote: »
    Jstas wrote: »
    Simple question. If you had a cool million bucks, what would you do with it?
    Wonder WTF happened to the rest of my money.
    In Use
    PS3, Yamaha CDR-HD1300, Plex, Amazon Fire TV Gen 2
    Pioneer Elite VSX-52, Parasound HCA-1000A
    Klipsch RF-82ii, RC-62ii, RS-42ii, RW-10d
    Epson 8700UB
    In Storage
    [Home Audio]
    Rotel RCD-02, Yamaha KX-W900U, Sony ST-S500ES, Denon DP-7F
    Pro-Ject Phono Box MKII, Parasound P/HP-850, ASL Wave 20 monoblocks
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  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,641
    edited April 2005
    I agree, but yall never find the 'perfect' placement running a 100 dollar Sony receiver with a 10 dollar APEX DVDP as the source, and then buy a B&K receiver and AMC/NAD/Cambridge CDP and expect your 'perfect' placement to be the same...

    You can find the perfect placement for that gear, but if ur taking upward steps...the placement will change with it, its never ending...

    Dont get me wrong, my point is - Yes, find your placement for ur gear, but dont expect that to be the same once you get better stuff :)
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
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  • audiobliss
    audiobliss Posts: 12,518
    edited April 2005
    Originally posted by Vr3MxStyler2k3
    You can find the perfect placement for that gear, but if ur taking upward steps...the placement will change with it, its never ending...


    LOL All we can do is find the 'perfect' placement for our current set-up. We weren't comparing the placement with system 1 with the placement of system 2; I believe this was about placement with system 1 versus no placement with system 1 -1/2 (with upgrades).
    George Grand wrote: »
    Jstas wrote: »
    Simple question. If you had a cool million bucks, what would you do with it?
    Wonder WTF happened to the rest of my money.
    In Use
    PS3, Yamaha CDR-HD1300, Plex, Amazon Fire TV Gen 2
    Pioneer Elite VSX-52, Parasound HCA-1000A
    Klipsch RF-82ii, RC-62ii, RS-42ii, RW-10d
    Epson 8700UB
    In Storage
    [Home Audio]
    Rotel RCD-02, Yamaha KX-W900U, Sony ST-S500ES, Denon DP-7F
    Pro-Ject Phono Box MKII, Parasound P/HP-850, ASL Wave 20 monoblocks
    Klipsch RF-35, RB-51ii
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    Pioneer Premier DEH-P860MP, Memphis 16-MCA3004, Boston Acoustic RC520
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,165
    edited April 2005
    Originally posted by Vr3MxStyler2k3
    I agree, but yall never find the 'perfect' placement running a 100 dollar Sony receiver with a 10 dollar APEX DVDP as the source, and then buy a B&K receiver and AMC/NAD/Cambridge CDP and expect your 'perfect' placement to be the same...

    You can find the perfect placement for that gear, but if ur taking upward steps...the placement will change with it, its never ending...

    Dont get me wrong, my point is - Yes, find your placement for ur gear, but dont expect that to be the same once you get better stuff :)

    Absolutely agree :D
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • Tour2ma
    Tour2ma Posts: 10,177
    edited April 2005
    On the placement thing... I've yet to read of anyone who had to reposition his optimally placed speakers for any change in the chain that's feeding them, i.e., source, pre, amp, cables, wire. Any of these are just not going to change the speakers' interaction with the room, which is what determines placement.

    New speakers??? Completely different ballgame...
    Originally posted by heiney9
    My leather couch actually has a slight sag in the cushion where I constantly sit (in the sweet spot).

    Anybody ever moved to a new residence becausee the old one didn't cut it soundwise? <Ha Ha>
    When that sag becomes a full blown imprint, you will have officially staked your claim...

    As for moving... no. But I drove my Ex crazy when we were looking to make a move because this one or that did not have a good audio room. Contributing factor??? ;)
    More later,
    Tour...
    Vox Copuli
    Better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. - Old English Proverb

    "Death doesn't come with a Uhaul." - Dennis Gardner
    "It's easy to get lost in price vs performance vs ego vs illusion." - doro
    "There is a certain entertainment value in ripping the occaisonal (sic) buttmunch..." - TroyD
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  • audiobliss
    audiobliss Posts: 12,518
    edited April 2005
    Originally posted by Tour2ma
    When that sag becomes a full blown imprint


    Your listening position will have moved (down), and so will not longer be that 'optimal' location. You will then need to sit on a sheet folded over and over and over to raise that position back up. :p
    George Grand wrote: »
    Jstas wrote: »
    Simple question. If you had a cool million bucks, what would you do with it?
    Wonder WTF happened to the rest of my money.
    In Use
    PS3, Yamaha CDR-HD1300, Plex, Amazon Fire TV Gen 2
    Pioneer Elite VSX-52, Parasound HCA-1000A
    Klipsch RF-82ii, RC-62ii, RS-42ii, RW-10d
    Epson 8700UB
    In Storage
    [Home Audio]
    Rotel RCD-02, Yamaha KX-W900U, Sony ST-S500ES, Denon DP-7F
    Pro-Ject Phono Box MKII, Parasound P/HP-850, ASL Wave 20 monoblocks
    Klipsch RF-35, RB-51ii
    [Car Audio]
    Pioneer Premier DEH-P860MP, Memphis 16-MCA3004, Boston Acoustic RC520
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  • scottnbnj
    scottnbnj Posts: 709
    edited April 2005
    i don't know tour, not so much that anyone would ~have~ to or anything, but, i think just that one piece extends h or lf response more than another would be enough reason to take another listen or two even if you don't regularly fiddle with placement,.. but then to be fair (the extreme that this perspective comes from), i change speaker placement and toe for particular moods and cd's, do something with speaker placement on more days than i don't and always adjust listening position throughout every cd. but, again, not because i *have* to, just because it makes a difference and i can.

    )
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