Bass !!!!!!!!!!

pinknerve

Ok, since I will be getting a polk sub very shortly, I was hoping that by getting it I will be able to get better sound out of my speakers, since they won't have to provide the bass anymore. Do you think this will be true, I mean the sub should be giving all the bass now, right????????

TrappedUnder Ice

The idea behind a full system... Tweeter/mid/sub is exactly what your aiming for. By adding a sub- normally it will take over the 80hz and below function of the system....by doing this... it will allow your mids too do what they are made to do...play mids...and of course the tweets will blend better.
The trick normally in a system is balance. getting a good balance between the loudness of the sub and the mid is key. sub can easlily drown out your mids and highs....Funny thing...some like this effect! Its all up too your taste.

Good luck and enjoy the forum

MacLeod

Originally posted by TrappedUnder Ice
sub can easlily drown out your mids and highs....Funny thing...some like this effect! Its all up too your taste.

Yeah. Its a shame that so many people define how good a system is by how much bass it puts out.

Bass is supposed to be no more than an extension of the midrange. It shouldnt be louder than the rest of the music.

1996blackmax

Originally posted by MacLeod
Yeah. Its a shame that so many people define how good a system is by how much bass it puts out.

Bass is supposed to be no more than an extension of the midrange. It shouldnt be louder than the rest of the music.

Well said.

exalted512

yea but every now and then its fun to crank it...
-Cody

AustinKP

Originally posted by exalted512
yea but every now and then its fun to crank it...
-Cody

if it wasn't, then nobody would ever buy a brahma...

neomagus00

naturally... there are some times you just HAVE to rattle your skull so badly that your brain can't figure out which ear it wants to crawl out of... that's half the fun

MacLeod

No doubt! A 155 db burp will always be cool! I just wish more people measured a systyem by its SQ than how big its subs were. I get laughed at when I tell people Im running a single 8.

I dont even demo my system anymore. I did to this one dude at work who "was in to stereos" (his consisted of Sony 6x9s in the rear and factory fronts running off a Sony head unit) and played Yes' '90125' and Rush's 'Test for Echo' since these are super clean recordings and sound great and he didnt say a word. Just sat there and said, "yeah, thats cool". Now my system may not rival Buwalda or Biggs but it aint no slouch and deserves more than a unemotional "thats cool"!

So on a whim I stuck in The Police 'Syncronicity' and played "Wrapped Around Your Finger" which has a heavy bass guitar with only some mild drums and vocals and is the closest thing I have to rap and cranked it up. Now my MTX is severley overpowered and in way too small a box so it didnt sound good by any stretch of the imagination but it was loud! My buddy sure did perk up. "Yeah! Now that sounds good!!" :rolleyes:

exalted512

im not stopping until it makes my stomach hurt...
which is not half as bad as one of my friends...hes not stopping until he cracks a window...his plans are 4 15" XXXs...in a focus...
-Cody

VR3

I thought I should chime in here with my "DUH" comment of the night...

Bass is not an extention of the midrange...but the midBASS - I don't know bout YOU, but I don't want A female singer soundin like a man...unless she WANTS to sound like a man...



And I tell you something else...I like bass, but I like to know what the music says too, HOWEVER, for Car Audio - it is a completely different "Atmosphere" - and I do like loud, thumping bass, even if it colors the music a little bit. Not that I dont like accurate music, I do - my 2 channel system in my room is geared torwards it, and setup to be so - but the car, is a completely different 'attitude' for me and has different requirements...I'm not listening critically, therefore isnt for critical listening, bass would be my top priority in a car...

kenstewart

I'm with Mac on this, especially since he, Neo, and a few others just helped me out with my setup. The single 8" sounds awesome in my truck and helps to round out the total sound in my vehicle. I'm real curious about trying the Polk momo 8"s though since people are saying they're better for SQ than my current RF.

MacLeod

Originally posted by Vr3MxStyler2k3
I thought I should chime in here with my "DUH" comment of the night...

Bass is not an extention of the midrange...but the midBASS - I don't know bout YOU, but I don't want A female singer soundin like a man...unless she WANTS to sound like a man...

Um , split hairs much?

Not quite sure how a sub playing 80 Hz and below would make a woman sound like a man.


Midrange is generally considered from 80-3500 Hz and so a sub playing from 80 Hz down would be continuing on from the midrange.

VR3

Question - what would you want to cross your sub at 80hz in a car? I figured you car folks would be crossing at 60hz...HMM

Particularly if that sub is located anywhere near you....80hz can be localized, its on the brink of being invisible, but not quite there yet...Try crossing lower

And you're also forgeting that when you cross the mains off, and the subwoofer off at 80hz, depending on how you are doing it, you can create a dip or bump in that range, as the subwoofer STILL hits above 80hz (the crossover is like a 12 or so db roll off), while the mains will be hitting below 80hz...

To me, a subwoofer should play with the midbass section of the music, 60hz and down, particularly for music. 80hz is pretty high, as I have recently found, but great for movies as it supplies more impact to the movies, OR music - depends on what you are searching for in your music. The bass drum has more kick at 80hz, but it dosnt sound natural to me...

Anyways, Bass should be an extention of the midbass, and midbass is the like 50-80hz kick, that is where Polks have that 'kick' - 50-80hz.

OR* Maybe it is different in a car, and if it is...I apologize!

neomagus00

no need to apologise, but it is a bit different in the car. a reference-level signal at 60 Hz is something that most mid(basse)s can't keep up with, but jump up a third of an octave to 80 Hz and you knock off nearly half your excursion... this is good. plus, the combination of your other two comments keeps it all in check - 80 Hz is just at the level of invisibility, and the rolloff (typically 12 dB/oct for the mid's highpass) keeps enough bass in the front to localise it there. plus, in a car, the entire thing resonates, so you've got real omnidirectional bass but really, 50-60 Hz is the ideal, but the realities of 1 midrange/channel force that higher...

and we deal with the dips/bumps by using appropriate xover alignments or, more often, eqing them away, or, for the uncultured, ignoring them .

i would divide the frequencies a little differently - subbass, 16-65 Hz, midbass, 65-250, midrange, 250-3500, treble 3500-80k

and i have my HT sub xovered at 100, but it happens to blend nearly perfectly with the mains there, so i leave well enough alone

VR3

Yeah, in HT (movies) you can get away with incredibly high tunes - particularly if you have mini sats, as they usually roll off at 125hz (Or higher) and require a higher xover point with the sub. The Bose cubes are crossed at 250hz...insane...

Probally when you cross that high is the sub starts producing vocals, and during movies...that becomes very distracting, particularly if the sub is under the couch (like Bose says you can do) - therefore your listening to some guy talking to your butt...lol

, and I can see that in a car, the midbass would have to work alot harder to produce bass or midbass, being what it is in...

Some people in HA even cross their sub at 50-40hz, or even lower - or dont use them at all... My speakers could accomplish this with about 200 more watts, but with only 125, the -12db is 25hz... pretty good for the power they're given, and the room...

Carry on

MacLeod

You dont have a set point to cross over anything. You set it up as to how it sounds best. Its just that generally 80 Hz is the starting point.

Ive had mine crossed from 50-120 Hz and have settled on 90 Hz for my sub and 70'ish for my mids.

Midbass is from around 80-200 Hz. 60 Hz is waaaay to low to be considered midbass.

Either way, we're only quibbling over terms here. We both agree that bass should pick up around 80 Hz and below.

VR3

Well, I am going by a 3-way speaker here...

Which usually goes this

Tweeter - crossed over around 2-1khz, then the midrange picks up at that point, then drops off at 80-90hz, then the woofer picks up at that point, and the bass department dosnt count to me until it hits below 50hz.... 50hz down to 1hz is good for me

neomagus00

Originally posted by MacLeod
We both agree that bass should pick up around 80 Hz and below.

i don't! i want a 20-20 sinebomb to sound perfectly flat from top to bottom (then, of course, i switch on an extra eq curve and some BBE, but that's beside the point )

actually, i switch some of that processing off when i listen to 'real' music - pure vocals, or classical, for instance... the extras seem to make metal and rock sound better.

and i'm surprised neither of you noticed that i extended treble to 80 kHz... but frequencies up to that point have been tenuously shown to enhance the listening experience, when accurately reproduced... i want 1/4" tweeters and DVD-audio to see for myself if it's true...

VR3

Anything above 20khz will enhance the music for your DOG and that is about IT!

I am here to tell you, any speaker that says it hits above 20khz is talking about the overall response of like -5db... lol

Mine hit up to 30khz, -12db...

AustinKP

dang, I had a good reply to vr3sidukslkbid's original comment, but then you guys both addressed them all. Neo, I noticed immediately your "up to 80kHz" and was curious if that was a typo. Human hearing, like you said, rarely extends above 18-20kHz, so I'm dubious that anything above could "enhance" the listening experience. I could be wrong, but I really would have to hear it for myself.

MacLeod

Originally posted by Vr3MxStyler2k3
Well, I am going by a 3-way speaker here...

Which usually goes this

Tweeter - crossed over around 2-1khz, then the midrange picks up at that point, then drops off at 80-90hz, then the woofer picks up at that point, and the bass department dosnt count to me until it hits below 50hz.... 50hz down to 1hz is good for me

50 is usually too low at least in CA. Your midrange wont be able to get down that low to keep it all together. Hell even a good midbass usually wont play 50 Hz with any authority unless its an 8" midbass.

Also you usually wont see tweeters crossed over that low. Most wont go below 3500 Hz.

Can you even hear frequencies below 15 Hz?

VR3

You can't hear frequencies below 20hz. However, you can *FEEL* frequencies below 20hz, which is half the fun of HT, stuff falling off the walls when it is completely silent... BRILLIANT!

neomagus00

i've seen (well, felt) a demo wherein a 16 Hz tone was played with such force that the spoken word was perfectly audible, but completely unintelligible... the tone modulated your voice to the extent that it sounded like mush...

austin - i don't claim it; it'd be interesting to know for sure one way or another though, so i'm crawling for a paper of some sort

and vr - i can hear some dog whistles

AustinKP

Originally posted by MacLeod
Um , split hairs much?

oh yeah, I thought that was funny

MacLeod

I rekon the benefit to a speaker with a frequency respone up around 30 KHz is that it will play the stuff you can hear louder and clearer because its natural rolloff doesnt begin til way out in the inaudible range as opposed to a tweet that stops at 20 KHz. It would start rolling off in the teens somewhere and I would think that would be audible whereas a tweet that went to 40 KHz would sound linear all the way thru.

VR3

There are not many speakers with an overall FR of 20khz... if there is, it is probally a Full range driver...

But most speakers have a -3db repsonse of 20khz, which is normal. The overall response are those extroidinary number of 30khz +

neomagus00

Originally posted by Vr3MxStyler2k3
There are not many speakers with an overall FR of 20khz... if there is, it is probally a Full range driver...

But most speakers have a -3db repsonse of 20khz, which is normal. The overall response are those extroidinary number of 30khz +

huh???

VR3

A speaker starts rolling off around 17khz, making the -3db response 20khz...

IE: My speakers at -3db, 20khz, -12db 30khz...

The upwards response home speakers (or any speakers) list in the upper khz range is nothing but a marketing ploy, there is no chance that rating is -12db OR -3db...

The difference is would make wouldnt be audible to you.

Infact, most males over 35 cant even hear past 17khz...much less to 20khz...

Full Range (FR) drivers that play the entire spectrum (or try to) usually have a roll off between 15-20khz (-3db), my Pioneers are 17khz (-3db) and they have more than spectacular top end....

Even the best speakers in the world have a -3db response of 20khz...

Jstas

The major problem in this thread that will affect all statements concerning everything from crossover points to frequency response is a thing called white noise.

Defined: Acoustical or electrical noise of which the intensity is the same at all frequencies within a given band.

White noise is menifested in road noise, something of which a home environment is devoid of and where Vr3MxStyler2k3's experience solely lies.

Crossover points for a car are different than for a house. In a house, you often have the luxury of the space needed to properly design and tune an enclosure to maximize the results from the drivers contained in those enclosures. Thusly, subwoofer boxes can get to very large proportions to enable the very low bottom end in the frequency range to be reproduced. You also get an enclosure tuned for a certain mid-range frequency that compliments the driver in many cases and provides a baffle to mount the tweeter close enough to the center of that midrange to minimize separation in the directional range.

You don't have the luxuries in a car and enclosures are often times, doors, A-pillars, kick-panels, rear package shelves and other voids between interior and exterior body panels. These "enclosures" are far from properly sealed and not constructed with sonic resonance reduction in mind. To achieve the same effect as a good pair of home speakers, one needs to do some serious custom work.

Add to that, the white noise mentioned earlier. There are only two ways to remedy that. Either play a signal that duplicates the white noise but 180 degrees out of phase and the white noise is eliminated. The other way is to just over-power teh noise with brute force. Way number two is insanely cheaper and the preffered way to go. This is also the reason crossover points are high. A mid-range or mid-bass speaker does not have the size nor power handling at it's lowest frequency range extension to faithfully reproduce sound at an audible level with distorting. Most 6.5 inch drivers are well into thier frequency roll-off range at 80 Hz and it just gets worse below that point. Add white noise to the mix and at a -3 dB drop, that speaker is already not producing a chunk of information at a level audible enough to be heard over regular wind noise, tire hum and engine droning. So what do you do? Push that crossover point to 80 Hz on the sub because that will play loud enough and keep teh mid-range/mid-bass crossed over at 60Hz to keep a balance across the crossover points.

Also, 80Hz may be at the very edge of directional sound but when your listening area is less than 6 feet from any speaker in most cases, directional sound is not a concern at sucha low frequency. The subwoofer frequency does not have enough room to expand and show any separation or direction in relation to the other speakers in such a small area. On top of that, most subs are located in a trunk or behind a seat where sound-deadening, insulation and seat padding do an effective job at dispersing the sound and creating enough reflections that cabin gain becomes a factor and basically turns the entire passenger cabin and/or cargo space into an enclosure.

Lastly, bass is not an extension of mid-range or mid-bass. If it was then we would not need seperate speakers to recreate the sounds faithfully. Bass is loosely defined as the lowest part of the musical range. If bass is an extention of mid-range then ther midrange which is defined as the middle part of an audio frequency. would be a misnomer. Without bass, there is no middle part. Granted, bass and midrange are not exactly technical terms but rather terms used to define a more complex idea that society in general has accepted as a means to convey an idea simply. By bastardizing such a definition, not only are over-complicating things but sparking the fire of mis-information to spread. It doesn't reallt matter what you think when it comes to concrete ideas with definitions based on tried and true science. You can argue it all you want but the evidence is staring you right in the face.

For more information on why hearing and audible sound is affected by affected by the enviroment, check out this page: http://home.tir.com/~ms/concepts/concepts.html

There is alot of good info there on listening room design ideas summed up as Architectural Lighting and Acoustics. Granted, it may not apply to an automotive enviroment directly but the concepts do because sound is sound, whether it is in your car or in your home, it still behaves the same way.

MacLeod

I know this is a trivial thing here but we seem to be hung up on this one phrase.

Since sub-bass takes over where the midrange leaves off, usually around 80 Hz, I consider this to be an extension of the midrange.

To me this means that the sub-bass is not a seperate entity and thus shouldnt be played louder than the rest of the music (unless its rap or hip-hop and who cares cause we're talking about music).

A properly tuned system wont have the bass frequencies blaring out over the vocals and other instruments like guitar.

Therefore by saying bass is an extension of midrange, I mean that bass is idealy a part of the music as a whole and not off by itself.

exalted512

and all this time i thought white noise was the dead people talking to us in digital recordings...
-Cody