Terri Shaivo is dead

steveinaz

one word: Atrocity.

Godspeed Terri.

AsSiMiLaTeD

DELETED.

PhantomOG

wow.. cover up a murder? is there more to this case than i thought?

by the way, her husband has already requested an autopsy be done.

read about it here

Sami

Good for her, that was no way to "live". She was practically dead anyways. Nature is very cruel. Many lives are ended that are more fit to live than someone who is braindead like Terry. I understand the need/want to preserve human life, especially from a parents point of view, but sometimes it's just too much.

PolkThug

They should have removed the tube 10 years ago. If I end up like that, I hope they remove the tube after 1 year. A life like that is far worse than death IMO.

faster100

This is way to political of a subject, i suggest we end it before it begins... we all have opinions.. but to start calling people we don't know, either side murderer's... Lets move on, and let this be

Tour2ma

Two words: Living Will

polkatese

Originally posted by Tour2ma
Two words: Living Will

Dibs on your CA and B&K, Bruce!

bobman1235

I don't think this has to be particularly political, although it tends to be.

Basically it comes down to two things :
1) does someone have the right to say they want to die in certain situations - ie can I say that " I want to die if I'm ever in that state."

2) If I never wrote down what I want, and am in a state in which I am unable to communicate it, can someone else say what I would want, and if SO, who would that be?

I think everyone should be afforded the right to die - it seems to me the most basic of animal rights.

As to the second point, obviously there is someone in your life who you are most likely to tell these wishes to. The voters in the state of Florida believe that it is your spouse. If they now don't agree, or think limitations shoudl be placed, maybe they should think twice about the law.

I don't know the husband from a hole int eh ground, but judgement really shouldn't be passed on him unless you personally know that he is not saying what Terry herself would have said were she able to speak. None of us can know that, so we have to assume he is speaking on her bahalf - that is why the law exists, to have someone to speak on your behalf in the case that you cannot. So if he's speaking as he believes Terry would want, doesn't that make HER a murderer, of herself, if that's what you believe? Pretty much a stupid classification by any definition.

Just my 2 cents.

PhantomOG

Originally posted by bobman1235
I don't think this has to be particularly political, although it tends to be.

Basically it comes down to two things :
1) does someone have the right to say they want to die in certain situations - ie can I say that " I want to die if I'm ever in that state."

2) If I never wrote down what I want, and am in a state in which I am unable to communicate it, can someone else say what I would want, and if SO, who would that be?

I think everyone should be afforded the right to die - it seems to me the most basic of animal rights.

As to the second point, obviously there is someone in your life who you are most likely to tell these wishes to. The voters in the state of Florida believe that it is your spouse. If they now don't agree, or think limitations shoudl be placed, maybe they should think twice about the law.

I don't know the husband from a hole int eh ground, but judgement really shouldn't be passed on him unless you personally know that he is not saying what Terry herself would have said were she able to speak. None of us can know that, so we have to assume he is speaking on her bahalf - that is why the law exists, to have someone to speak on your behalf in the case that you cannot. So if he's speaking as he believes Terry would want, doesn't that make HER a murderer, of herself, if that's what you believe? Pretty much a stupid classification by any definition.

Just my 2 cents.

exactly! the media and politicians have made a circus out of this family's unfortunate situation. all of these people who don't know anyone involved speaking like they know what is best for them. it makes me sick.

madmax

Once you take extrodinary measures you should not remove them.

It is state mandated death because they would not allow her to try to drink or eat because she may have choked. Choking is a natural death, starvation is murder.
madmax

bobman1235

Originally posted by madmax
Once you take extrodinary measures you should not remove them.

It is state mandated death because they would not allow her to try to drink or eat because she may have choked. Choking is a natural death, starvation is murder.
madmax

I think the way she died (starvation) was definitely a poor choice, but I do have a question for you : say she had said-- even in writing, for hte sake of argument-- that if she was ever in this state, she wanted to DIE after, say, 6 months (the amount of time she felt would be enough to determine if she would ever "come out of it".). So, they insert the feeding tube, 6 months passes. Do you think they should honor her wishes? Perhaps by method of some kind of injection, rather than starvation, but in the general spirit of things, should her wishes have been honored? Or, and I in no way mean this sarcastically or mean-spiritedly, would you ahve felt better about it if they just removed all tubes and stuck her in a bowl of sustenance in such a way that she could try feeding herself?

One final note - this is in no way state mandated. This was two factions of a family fighting - the state never said to remove the tube, but rather, they said to OBEY THE PERSON who they saw as most fit to make the decision. Had the husband said to leave the tube in, and the PARENTS fought to take it out and end her suffering, it would have been left in, because the state only decided who was most able to make that decision.

PhantomOG

Originally posted by madmax
Once you take extrodinary measures you should not remove them.

regardless of the person involved and *their* will? everyone is trying to make this like the state/government is interfering and causing this death. its exactly the opposite. the state/government is staying *out* of this and allowing people to have *their* will fulfilled.

I *thought* we lived in a free country, where people could refuse medical service if they desired. It seems like a lot of people want the state/government to be able to override individual choice and dictate what people can and can't do.

Originally posted by madmax

It is state mandated death because they would not allow her to try to drink or eat because she may have choked. Choking is a natural death, starvation is murder.
madmax

If *I* decide that I don't want to be fed artificially, and *I* die of starvation, I don't see how you can consider it murder. If you don't believe her wishes were followed, then it is murder, but by her husband who, by law, should be responsible for seeing that her wishes are followed in her condition.

I don't personally know anyone involved in this case, so I won't be so bold as to make ignorant claims about what her true wishes were.

fireshoes

This thread is just asking for trouble. No politics please.

polkatese

Originally posted by fireshoes
This thread is just asking for trouble. No politics please.

Let me see if I can help you with that:

hey fireshoes, have you done a comparsion between the new batch of LSi15 (or 9) with the old one (soundwise), in your store? notice *any* difference?

Sami

RIP Terri.

ohskigod

i'll second that. this was a private family matter. There is alot we do not know of what happenned in the last 8 years. none of us, who do not have firsthand exposure to the situation, have a right to cast dispersions on any of them. when congress got involved, i wanted to vomit. apparently we do not have other things to worry about?????? CMON!!!!!

dorokusai

Ah, America....where everyone thinks they are right when they actually know nothing more than what they see on TV or read in the paper.

Go ahead and hop on your soapbox idiots.

steveinaz

The thread was intended as an emotional tribute, not a political debate.

faster100

Boy the forum today is in rare form.. well not rare around here.. just been awhile since the planets have alighned just so, and all hell broke loose in 10 different thread topics..

exalted512

Originally posted by dorokusai
Go ahead and hop on your soapbox idiots.

jdhdiggs

Thank you exalted, very good.

As for the point of the thread: Terri, I hope you are in a better place now.

That is all...

Tour2ma

So far it's just an exchange of views... no hostility, although I agree the topic has disaster potential...

"Extraordinary measures" are taken on a daily basis all over the country. Some are later abandoned when doctors determine that the patient's condition is beyond recovery. Brain activity is the deciding factor. More often this involves shutting off a ventilator than removing a feeding tube.

I feel for Terri's immediate family.

Just because we have the technology to keep a body functioning, it does not mean that we can keep a person alive.

madmax

Originally posted by bobman1235
I think the way she died (starvation) was definitely a poor choice, but I do have a question for you : say she had said-- even in writing, for hte sake of argument-- that if she was ever in this state, she wanted to DIE after, say, 6 months (the amount of time she felt would be enough to determine if she would ever "come out of it".). So, they insert the feeding tube, 6 months passes. Do you think they should honor her wishes?

When a person thinks about this subject and decides what they want to happen they make a living will. She did not. Not doing so suggests she either gave it no thought or decided against having life ended. If she just never got around to it that is too bad but there is nothing to say she felt that way. Had the husband known her feelings at the beginning I guess they would have removed it after a few months. Right?? This didn't happen. He didn't REMEMBER it until recently. When you are in this position you remember things like that. (Unfortunately that I do have experience with). Once they put it in (and I believe this is traditional but have no examples) normally something else would have to happen to cause death, at least that is what I have heard. Thus the reason so many people are urged to have a living will.


To the question: YES, she has the right to make that decision while mentally fit in my opinion.

PhantomOG

from CNN.com:

The legal fight between Michael Schiavo and his wife's parents has lasted more than a decade.

Schiavo maintains his wife would not want to be kept alive in her condition, which courts have ruled is a persistent vegetative state. Federal courts have sided with him, rejecting all pleas for intervention.

recently? ten years doesn't seem recent to me.

bobman1235

Originally posted by madmax
When a person thinks about this subject and decides what they want to happen they make a living will. She did not. Not doing so suggests she either gave it no thought or decided against having life ended. If she just never got around to it that is too bad but there is nothing to say she felt that way. Had the husband known her feelings at the beginning I guess they would have removed it after a few months. Right?? This didn't happen. He didn't REMEMBER it until recently. When you are in this position you remember things like that. (Unfortunately that I do have experience with). Once they put it in (and I believe this is traditional but have no examples) normally something else would have to happen to cause death, at least that is what I have heard. Thus the reason so many people are urged to have a living will.


To the question: YES, she has the right to make that decision while mentally fit in my opinion.

First off, sorry that you've ever had any kind of experience liek this.

And I can't argue with anything you say, except to say that the people of Florida have said that it doesn't have to be in writing - possibly something that really should change, as trusting ANYONE'S word is far too subjective in such a serious matter. Hell, in my state (MA), even if you HAVE IT IN WRITING, it doesn't matter - living wills are not honored.

Personally, I can't see anyone wanting to be kept "alive" in such a state, but that's certainly not something I would force on someone else.... but this view probably tains my opinion that the husband should be allowed to decide - if I thought I would want to be kept alive, I would definitely not want that decision left to anyone but myself.

madmax

Yea,
I won't argue the points too much but I still feel the following:

1. They made the decision to put her on it.
2. Nothing written to say it should come out.
3. If your going to remove it you let her choke to death trying to drink or she makes it.
4. No one has the right to starve someone AND not allow them to try to drink or whatever. (I'm guessing eating was probably not an initial option.


madmax

AsSiMiLaTeD

OK, looks like we've already started, so I'll put my two cents in:

If we had it in writing (i.e. she'd had it drawn up before she died) that she didn't want to live like this...then fine, no feeding tube.

However, in cases like this where there is no clear will, I feel we should err on the side of life. What if we find out next week that she had in fact expressed her will to live during these conditions? I don't see how that could happen...but still. "Well, we were wrong, but there's not much we can do about it now, sorry"

Hey, I don't trust or believe the guy, and I'm entitled to that point of view.

Here's an interesting read...obviously it's biased and they have an agenda...but who/what isn't anymore?

http://www.rense.com/general63/lov.htm

Sami

Originally posted by Polkmaniac
However, in cases like this where there is no clear will, I feel we should err on the side of life.

If there was a life then yes but that was hardly the case. Her body was alive, most of her brain was dead. There was plenty of time to recover but there really was no hope. It's just a matter of the parents not accepting her death (which occurred long time ago) and not willing to let go. I know, it requires enormous strength and courage to do it but eventually you have to, or you will carry it to your grave.

VR3

If I was out of it for more than 6 months...someone better pull the plug on me...for god sakes...

I'd rather be a dead man than a vegtable

Thats my thoughts on that...

Sorry to hear about this loss...must be hard on the family, cant imagine...

AsSiMiLaTeD

we'll obviously never truly know what her desire was...

all I know is if I was her and someone decided to let me die against my wishes OR decided to let me die via starvation I guarangoddamntee you I'm gonna haunt them for the rest of their life...

Whatever side you happen to fall on...this is just really sad.