Ok...I HAVE** to share my excitement...

VR3

I've been doing that ALL day...

I have been at this hobby for 3 years pretty closely...

And in my 3 years, I've heard ALOT of great systems, systems I wish I could own...systems I know I'd never own...Systems I no longer want to own...

I have always been under the impression cables don't make a difference...ALWAYS...

But I will admit, I am SIMPLY floored. My Signals have fully broken in, and it seems the last 10 hours, the bottom just feel completely out of them...

If an IMPROVEMENT can be had from a CDP and power cables...they are next...

This is the BEST system I've had in my room, the absolute BEST sound I have heard from a system as I can remember, nothing else has EVER sounded like this to me...

The layer...the detail...the soundstage...the seperation....

Simply amazing, I can't even EXPLAIN what I'm hearing, stuff is just so much larger, so much wider, so much deeper, the annoyances of the music that once was...just is no more....its actual sounds, actual content...how did I ignore this SO long?

I can't stress enough the importance of cables, you can throw all kinds of crazy data in front of me that says cables make no difference, but I'm here to tell you....this is the BIGGEST difference thats ever been made in my system, even changing out amps, preamps, and speakers didnt give me these type of results...

THis is a completely different system...a completely different animal...

Just WOW...

I don't wanna leave the sweetspot...just cant...dont wanna...

Thanks for letting me spread my excitement....just wow...

organ

Congrats. I'm really enjoying my combination of Audioquest and XLO. I find that IC's make a bigger difference than speaker cables. I'm also thinking about trying out power cords next.

If cables can get you this excited, wait until you try tubes. You're going to **** your pants:D. I'm not joking!

Maurice

VR3

Man, I dont know if I can go through any improvements as drastic as these...

I'm droolin over here...

Absolutely fan-effing-tastic!

Mazeroth

I know this has been discussed, at minimum, 10000x in the past, but I will say it again...you are smoking crack

I will put every speaker I own (well over $5000) that if I used 3 different classes of wire on the same system, you'd never be able to distinguish the best from the worst. I'm talking the whole deal: RCAs, opticals, patch cables AND speaker wires. Same system, setup with 3 different grades of wire.

Here's the honest to god truth of what happened at the 2003 Dayton Ohio DiY speaker meet. They did a double blind test with $$$ Kimber Cable against PHONE LINE. Everyone at the meet participated, which was roughly 50 people. They tallied the scores and the phone line won, by a small margin of like 52% to 48%.

Blah...I could go on and on. I'm glad you "think" you hear a difference, but I highly doubt you do. If you do, then that's awesome; seriously. I'm glad I can't, because that allows me to save a lot of money

VR3

Man this isnt a sound I've *EVER* heard before...

If itsnt the cables, this is an act of god...simple as that...because the differences are HUGE...

VR3

3 words...

CABLE SWAP PROGRAM

Frank Z

Get some more experience under that belt kid!

How would you suggest doing that? Rotate your speakers and electronics every 2-3 months?:rolleyes:

Wire guy's want to believe, fine. But don't think a pompus statement like that is going to convert anyone to your way of thinking.

Mazeroth

What's next? Amps that sound different?!?!?

dorokusai

Trey - It's nice to see that you had a positive experience with the changes.

Mazeroth - I've heard all that rhetoric before, and the same rhetoric exists for the people who believe in cables. It's a 50/50 argument that has zero resolve, and never will. I recall you stating this "demo" fact previously but don't recall it being phone cable, but something else....care to elaborate?

Ultimately, who really cares, let the individual make their own decision or are you on a mission like JohnK? I really try to not interject my opinion, in regards to cables, as that was the whole point of the CSP....so the individual can come to his/her own conclusion. It's so crazy to spend $25 on something when you could spend $5 right, someone might have to skip McDonalds that week over that sale.

I have seen levels of cheap, that completely boggle my mind.....and levels of excess that sicken me to no end. It won't end here and it won't end later.

Do I like Signal and suggest them as an alternative? Of course, I use it and they support the forum, always have. BJC, BMC, MIT and a host of others weren't interested when approached so some of them were purchased for the program, and a few were donated by other members....to allow other members to make their own choice.

I honestly don't care either way what the outcome is, as long as the effort exists, only then can you have a opinion that matters.

Signal Cable is a modestly priced "investment" or purchase....you don't see me suggesting MIT Shotguns in every thread do you? Yet that is my reference cable for all things stellar on this end.

I try to suggest a modestly priced cable, Signal, that just so happens to be a solid DIY design, and a giant killer as far as boutique cables go....hmmmm, looks like I'm an anti-convert huh?

Mazeroth

dorokusai,

I can see where you're coming from, but I need to ask a HUGE favor from you; seriously. Read this 2-3 times and fully digest it:

"This is the BEST system I've had in my room, the absolute BEST sound I have heard from a system as I can remember, nothing else has EVER sounded like this to me...

The layer...the detail...the soundstage...the seperation....

Simply amazing, I can't even EXPLAIN what I'm hearing, stuff is just so much larger, so much wider, so much deeper, the annoyances of the music that once was...just is no more....its actual sounds, actual content...how did I ignore this SO long?

I can't stress enough the importance of cables, you can throw all kinds of crazy data in front of me that says cables make no difference, but I'm here to tell you....this is the BIGGEST difference thats ever been made in my system, even changing out amps, preamps, and speakers didnt give me these type of results...

THis is a completely different system...a completely different animal...

Just WOW...

I don't wanna leave the sweetspot...just cant...dont wanna...

Thanks for letting me spread my excitement....just wow..."


Ok, now that we've comprehended what young Trey has stated, you can't possibly tell me if a sales ad, salesman, or review stated the aforementioned you wouldn't fall off your seat, laughing your **** off? Here's a good one:

"this is the BIGGEST difference thats ever been made in my system, even changing out amps, preamps, and speakers didnt give me these type of results..."

I can see, possibly, someone thinking changing a cable made a bigger difference than changing an amp, and possibly a pre...but SPEAKERS?! LoL! You can't possibly believe this nonsense?

If someone heard a difference between a cable and preferred one over the other, that's awesome. I wouldn't contest what they heard one ioda. But saying their system is the best system they've ever heard and swapping out cables made a larger difference than changing speakers? I think you see where I'm going here.

I think the cable swap program is absolutely AWESOME, and I had no idea that's where Trey got these from. I, myself, own pretty decent cable, only because I purchased it before I knew better. I will admit, if I was given the choice between spending $5 for a cheap, Radio Shack RCA, and $10 for a better built AR cable, I'd take the AR, even though I'm sure the Radio Shack would do just as good of a job. It's the "might as well" factor, as I call it. Plus, when friends come over they won't question why I'm using the wires that came with the DVD player.

VR3

hehe...laugh it up...

But I've had lots of speakers come through here, and yes the sound changed - but it never really 'improved' it was just 'different'...

I am VERY excited about the turn my system has taken, and where it might turn in the future...

Your system is ONLY as good as the weakest link, and I cant agree with that statement anymore than I do now...

VR3

You know what...

I'm actually gonna have to pull out the 1:30-in-the-morning-not-so-sure-what-i'm-saying attitude...

I don't really CARE what you've read in a magazine, and for a matter of fact if you dont' have the balls to sign up for a program that cost 5-10 dollars to ship things back and forth because your afraid you might find positive results, then your a sorrrrrrrrrrrry lil man...straight up...

Just because you havnt heard something dosnt mean it dosnt happen...

You say I'm imagining things, well I'm here to tell ya, that this just isnt something you forget...it isnt SUBTLE, it is infact, very obvious.

Hell, even my friend who isnt even into audio could hear a difference between the Nordost and the cables I had before...

I dont NEED your thick-headed thoughts, because obviously if your going to sit and read something and believe that is the end all be all, then so be it - I use to not believe in cables, and I signed up to the CSP not believing in cables, and it didnt take many demos at all to completely sway my thinking and get cables of my own...

Now, I might have been a bit loopy when I wrote the above, because I was pretty excited, and dang if I still aint...but my statement still stands...

This is the biggest improvement I've had in my system, improvement, speakers, amps, preamps, they gave me a different sound, but each different sound had similar limitations, these cables have relieved those limitations, to a whole new set of limitations that I hope to eliminate in the not-so-near-future.

I'm GLAD you think you got it all figured out, that you don't think cables make a difference, and you wont be able to hear a difference between a 200 dollar receiver and a 1,000 dollar 2 channel amp (amps dont make a difference right?) - honestly man, if thats how you feel, GREAT! But I am pretty sure yall be sitting on that sit-n-spin ALONE.

Have a nice night.

dorokusai

Mazeroth - I understand what you are saying. I would always choose speakers over gear...simply because I have about 13 pairs to choose from, and they all sound different on the same gear....how can one argue that fact? You know what I mean?

However, I'm not saying that gear doesn't affect the end result, as this whole hobby is a cycle of what works, and doesn't work. Everything has an influence on the end result IMO....if one area provides a bigger improvement at that time, rock on, if it sucks, rock on. IC's have made a difference to me, on many projects....so that's my stand, if that's the case, where do you think I lean?

I think most of us have gear and rigs that would make alot of ppl almost lose bodily control, while others have rigs that make ppl get aroused.....all of it is cool, and there are some that will go home and say my rig actually sucked.....flip on the clock radio and immediately have a multiple ****.

We can't win man, this whole issue screams straight jacket.

Trey - Keep it civil, we can't always agree, but that's just the way it goes. Don't get upset broham.

EDIT: Rock on Trey, as I've told more than one person to go f*ck themselves at some point.

VR3

As I said above, and want to clarify...

EVERY speaker I've tried sounds different, but ALL had similar limitations on my gear...

The limitations present before...with these cables...are NO LONGER there...

I am not nessicarially saying cables are more important than speakers, or to build off cables...

I am just saying what I said above, it gave me a bigger improvement that speakers, speakers sounded different...but the cables gave me the improvement...

Not upset...just in need of sleep

Mazeroth

Finally stopped laughing...

"I don't really CARE what you've read in a magazine, and for a matter of fact if you dont' have the balls to sign up for a program that cost 5-10 dollars to ship things back and forth because your afraid you might find positive results, then your a sorrrrrrrrrrrry lil man...straight up..."

I never stated anything from a magazine
Yes, you are correct. I am afriad to find POSITIVE results! Actually, I work 40-50 hours a week and go to school full-time finishing up my MBA. I live with my fiancee and when I have free time I'm working on speakers I'm building. I would LOVE to have enough free time to do a cable swap program but I feel if I signed up for it I wouldn't give them enough of my time and would be hindering someone else from using them.
As far as the sorrrrrry lil man.....yeah....
STRAIGHT UP, BOYEEEEE!

Now here's one that really gets me:

"But I will admit, I am SIMPLY floored. My Signals have fully broken in, and it seems the last 10 hours, the bottom just feel completely out of them..."

I am a man of science and work for a living as a chemist, with a strong physics background. Explain to me, young Jedi, how a CABLE "breaks-in"? Do the molecules somehow go through a stage of metamorphosis, unexplainable by even the brightest minds in science? They must, if that metamorphosis is audible. The only piece of equipment that has measurable performace after break-in are speakers (that I'm aware of). Any well informed speaker builder lets their speakers break-in for at least 20 hours before measuring the T/S parameters in order to develop a crossover and enclosure. You can measure the driver before and after break-in and there are noticable differences. The same goes for speakers you buy. They will break-in and audibly be different. Cables? Afraid not

VR3

Well, first off, let me admit that I am not at all in way shape or form to admit that cable burn in is real...

All I know is I recorded my thoughts at plug in....

And what I found now...and well, you dont see me jumping up and down...on the 3/10 do ya? lol...

There was an audible change...was it the cables breaking in...who knows, maybe the air in the house is cleaner tonight

I'm going to bed....lol...im beat

danger boy

after i demoed the Signal Cables. i had to order some for myself. I've since purchased several pairs. and will continue to buy more.

I really like the SC2 with bullets. great cable and connectors.

mantis

OK OK OK OK OK

Guys he had a very good experience with swappingout wires and this is how he feels. WHY O WHY knock him in anyway???

I'll tell you some of my experience stories where I felt once as he did about the wire I got and replaced.
None of you need to be reminded how much I repsect what wire does for ones system. Taking the same gear and speakers and then wiring it differently changes the sound is killer. For better or worse I love it.

When I bought my 8tc 8tc bi wires , I teared up after a few hours of listening and swapping out cables. I could not believe how much better the Kimbers sounded . I felt as Sid did here. There are certain tones that get us excitied and when your system makes these tones after years , days , months or what have you of not before , it's exciting.

Guys lay off Sid and allow him to express himself.I find nothing wrong with it and I'm happy for him. He is a young cat finding his way as we did in the audio hobby. We all have our personal feelings on what works , where to spend the money and not.

be happy for him.

Dan

mantis

As far as the signal cables go , yes I think there great for what Frank sells them for. I know what they cost to build and he makes himself a nice little profit for his efforts. I find nothing worng with that and I know there higher quality then most of you guys used in the past.

Home depot wire has nothing on them. Well except they can change colors after awhile into a cool green.

The cable swap program is totally awesome and I respect everyone who adds to it. Nice going there guys.

Dan

MacLeod

Im new to the whole home audio thing but I have quite a bit of experience in the car audio world and in that world cables do, without a doubt make an audible difference. However the difference isnt necessarily deeper bass or brighter highs but rather less noise. In a car there are oodles of wires and other wonderful things that can induce noise in the signal so a $10 pair of Radio Shack RCA's will let in tremendous amounts of noise where a $80 pair of Streetwires Zero Noise 6's will be virtually silence.

Also, in car audio, amps dont sound any different (although this is a little controversial). There are differences in build quality and power output and features but there is no sonic difference to other comparable amps. But car audio amps are just that, amps. In home audio they all have EQ's, and decoders and soundfields and whatever else that change the frequency response. So I would think there is an audible difference in home receivers.

RuSsMaN

Sid, good on ya. It's a fun hobby, glad to see you enjoying it, and kicking it up a notch.

Cheers,
Russ

polkatese

Sid, good to see you are getting more of your system because of signal cable. No reason to get upset when your experiences being questioned. It's part of the audiophile experiences, for every 1 believer, there are (at least) 5 non-believers. The point is, move on and enjoy your system!

VR3

Originally posted by polkatese
Sid, good to see you are getting more of your system because of signal cable. No reason to get upset when your experiences being questioned. It's part of the audiophile experiences, for every 1 believer, there are (at least) 5 non-believers. The point is, move on and enjoy your system!

Not really I was upset that he didnt believe what I said...

It was more so he didnt want to TRY IT...

even with time constraints...its worth trying...

madmax

Originally posted by Mazeroth
I will put every speaker I own (well over $5000) that if I used 3 different classes of wire on the same system, you'd never be able to distinguish the best from the worst. I'm talking the whole deal: RCAs, opticals, patch cables AND speaker wires. Same system, setup with 3 different grades of wire.

I've had a lot of equipment which did not allow me to hear any difference whatsoever between cables or wire. Not cheap stuff either. I also thought it sounded as good as it could possibly get. I was wrong! VERY WRONG! When the resolution is good throughout the system a particular cable or wire makes the difference between a noisemaker and a real spinetingling performance. As a matter of fact just a few months ago I went back to some other equipment I had. I was amazed at how totally bad some of it sounded in comparison to what I have now which is actually cheaper stuff.

madmax


EDIT: After re-reading this whole thread again I have to say I've experienced all the same differences to the same magnitude that MX has stated. Different cables but similar experiences. BTW, burn in is real. It is clearly noticeable and when it happens there is no denying that change is taking place. No differences in amps?? Jeez, listen to a few different ones...

PolkThug

Originally posted by madmax
No differences in amps?? Jeez, listen to a few different ones...

You should take Richard Clarke's $10,000 amp challenge, it would be easy money for you.

pjdami

Originally posted by Mazeroth


I am a man of science and work for a living as a chemist, with a strong physics background. Explain to me, young Jedi, how a CABLE "breaks-in"? Do the molecules somehow go through a stage of metamorphosis, unexplainable by even the brightest minds in science? They must, if that metamorphosis is audible. The only piece of equipment that has measurable performace after break-in are speakers (that I'm aware of). Any well informed speaker builder lets their speakers break-in for at least 20 hours before measuring the T/S parameters in order to develop a crossover and enclosure. You can measure the driver before and after break-in and there are noticable differences. The same goes for speakers you buy. They will break-in and audibly be different. Cables? Afraid not [/B]

Mazeroth,
Well, I am a Chemical Engineer with a strong background in chemistry and physics as well, and I can't explain the burn - in theory myself but know from my experience that it happens. I do respect your opinion and this subject has been beat to death in the past.

Most of the new cable's I have bought sound a bit brighter and edgy at first only to mellow out with time and have an increase in soundstage.

Even the cable manufacturer's recommend burn - in of cables. Here is a good article from George Cardas:

http://www.cardas.com/content.php?area=insights&content_id=12&pagestring=Cable+Break-In

RuSsMaN

Maz is just trolling at this point. If he doesn't get it, who cares? Certainly not I.

I'd be curious as to what he runs for cables in his rig. If it's anything other than standard RCA patch and lamp cord, obviously he believes SOMETHING as far as cables go. Naysayer for life it appears, quit wasting your time trying to explain anything to him.

He's the type that will form his own opinion, then ask you yours, only to argue his point. Shame, because the guy actually has some cool threads to, like his new OB speakers.

Cheers,
Russ

Mazeroth

Well, Time Warner decided to get my internet back up so here comes my reply!

If you guys go back and read my first reply, which had ZERO EDITS, you can tell I was having a little bit of fun with Trey. I offered up a friendly wager which is totally cool. I then stated facts of what really happened at a DiY speaker building event; that's kosher. The last two sentences of my reply were:

"If you do, then that's awesome; seriously. I'm glad I can't, because that allows me to save a lot of money "

I'm stating if cables do make a difference for you, kick ****! For me, I can't tell the difference, and I'm happy I can't because that's one less thing I worry about in my system.

Now, another thing you must realize is I replied to this thread thinking Trey was stating these new cables are better than any speaker change he's ever experienced. I find out later he does notice vast differences in speaker changing, only not as positive as the new cables. That's cool. The only time I got a little rough with the kid was when he started to get nasty with me, which is justifiable

As far as what I have for cables, I have the expensive Monster Cable Refernece series for patch cables, the Reference series optical cables, and Home Depot 12-gauge wire. The reason I have Monster Cable is because we got 65% off and free shipping through Monster Accomodations when I was working at Circuit City finishing college a few years ago. I already have it so I might as well use it. My new OB computer speakers are "utilizing" (lol) RCA brand 18-gauge wire that cost me $1.99 for 50 feet at Parts Express, a bargain I wasn't about to pass up!

That article from George Cardas wouldn't load but I think it's good marketing to say the cables need burn-in. Say, for instance, a guy gets a Cardas cable home, changes his old cable to the new one and can't hear a difference at all. Then he sees he needs to let them burn-in before getting the true effect. A few days later he thinks (or he does) he hears a subtle difference, and a few days later even more. Makes sense that Cardas added that little tidbit in there. Having a few classes in marketing I would do the same thing. Kudos Cardas! (sounds like a good Mexican restaurant, yes?)

Any of you guys that know me know that I'm a pretty cool guy and I think things just got out of control in this thread. I've picked on Trey in the past and have been giving him speaker building and finishing tips recently. Trey is the youngest Club Polkie, and we as elder members have that right to pick on him. It's like having a younger brother! I think it's awesome he has a love for audio at such a young age and when I saw him starting to build his own speakers recently, that just upped my respect for him ten fold.

Again, I knew I would get some "replies" by throwing my two cents in. I've seen dozens of these threads in the past few years and I thought, what the hell, it's Trey, and I'll spice this thread up a bit! (note to self, don't do this in the future).

Alright, guys. Gotta be at work in 8 hours and I wanted to do a little bit of tweaking on these new OB speakers before I hit the sack. Take care, and kiss your cables goodnight!

VR3

lol...

I warned ya, 1:30-in-the-morning-not-sure-what-im-saying attitude...LOL

Really, I wasnt mad, and still am not mad...

Its all good here, I just felt like clarifying a bit...

Sorry for the few 'shots' I took...

Night' folks!

madmax

Good night johnboy...
madmax

bknauss

"Even the cable manufacturer's recommend burn - in of cables."

And Bose says they have the best speakers in the world...
I would definitely believe a third party with the proper background and knowledge over someone who might have an interest in selling product.