New JL Home Subs

LiquidSound

Has anyone seen these pricey beasts?? The big Gotham has two modified 13W7's in it. Modified to have 4 inches of excursion instead of 3.5..that according to the JL rep. I've heard stories about it from the CES show and it sounds scary. Be sure and check the suggested retail.
http://jlaudio.com/#

exalted512

heard about it a while back. I dont understand why people would ever want to buy something from them. They are the car audio equivalent of bose
-Cody

LiquidSound

I'm not up to date in the car audio world, but from what I've heard from their subs I've liked. What don't you like about them?

gatemplin

If you have several thousand and you want all out performance it is better to go custom. It is cheaper and the performance is better, and it is exactly how you want it.

Example of some kick **** custom subs in progress:
http://home.comcast.net/~bcwwkg/Adams%20Avalanche.htm

You can also get custom built subs from:
www.acoustic-visions.com
http://rawacoustics.ca/

Or just go infinite baffle with some 15 or 18" XBL2 drivers.

bknauss

Liquid - to answer the question without other commentary, I have not heard a darn thing about the subs since they were shown at CES over a year ago. I haven't seen them at stores... kind of odd I haven't seen them at Tweeter since that's probably their biggest B&M purchaser.

And no, they're not the car equivalent of Bose. JL does make good stuff, especially their amps. They might be overpriced in some people's eyes, but I would assume the prices stay up since there aren't trans-shippers all over the place selling their products.

exalted512

Dealer cost for a 10w7 is $165. They sell them for $650.
Bose is not bad if they would cut their prices in half. Same with JL. That's why I believe they are the car audio equivalent of bose. The W7s are over priced. WAY overpriced. And they're 3 ohm subs? Why you may ask? Because their amps are regulated so they do the same power at any particular impedance. So they try to force you to buy their amps as well.
Personally, I'll take my 2 brahma 12s that i got for $640 that sound better IMO, they dont have the dry sound of the w7, they handle more power, and they have normal impedance ratings.
The W3s have bad motor noise, the W0s would get their butt handed to them by JBLs GT series, and the new W1s would get put in its place by Adires Shiva for half the price.
Like I said-car audio equivalent of bose
-Cody

audiobliss

Ok; corrections.

Take a look at some of JL's line-up. Just don't look at the price. Listen to their stuff. Inspect it. Push on parts. Notice the craftmanship. You see the reasonable quality with which everything is built? Now, isn't their stuff pretty good? Doesn't sound too bad, good quality materials, built reasonably well, no? Look at the price. Not quite as good as it was, eh? But still decent equipment.

Now, Bose. Don't look at the price. Go to a Bose store (if you must..) and look at the stuff. Look at all the cheap plastic on everything. Look at the speaker cones (IF you can get the grills off). Look around and ask employees what the specifications on their stuff is, and see if you get an answer. Now, what do you think of the stuff? Poor craftmanship, poor quality materials, absolutely NO information on their products (except "I assure you they're the best you'll find!" from the employees). Pretty bad stuff, eh? Now, look at the price. Really bad stuff, eh?

There's a difference.

Toxis

Equivalent to Bose? The sheer ignorance astounds me. And because some people think Wilson Audio is to expensive means their the equivalent to bose in the Ultra high end equipment. Wait, Lexicon is kinda expensive... as is Krell... as is JM Labs. Oh no, that's right... some people who don't like to spend money on quality equipment like to think that the stuff they can't afford is overpriced. My bad.

Oh, and Dealer Cost on a JL 10W7 is NOT 165. That's what employee purchase price is, but a dealer pays more than that. If you actually worked in the electronics industry, you'd understand the difference.

madmax

Bose? I think not.
madmax

Airplay355

who cares if they are 3 ohm subs. a speakers impedance changes based on teh frequency it plays. get an amp that can handle a 2 ohm load and dont worry about it.

exalted512

ive never said they made **** equipment. they make really good equipment. i could care less. i actually like to get what i pay for. before the w7 came out their prices were decent for what you got. the w6 was probably in the top 5 subs in the world as far as sound quality goes. it still is a great sub, but other companies have caught up. now theres subs like i have mentioned before that surpass the w7 in spl, sq, and do so at half the price.
their amps are pretty nice. too expensive, but pretty nice. their XR series components are ok...i almost got them instead of the diamonds i used to have. but they were a little out of budget, and i couldnt bring myself to support a company who bends over its customers.
and who cares about impedance levels of speakers?
i, for one, and know of many others.
if you buy a 2 ohm capable amp youre not going to be using it to its full capabilites. a lot of people like to use class a/b amps because they like their sound quality better.
can they do that with a w7?
nope, sorry, theyre not 3 ohm capable. this is where most companies have DVC subs. Is there an option for a DVC or something else besides a 3 ohm sub? Nope, sorry.
I'm obviously not going to convince you guys of anything, but whether you like it or not, JL IS overpriced and they dont do much to help out their customers unless they buy all JL products. Hell, up to a few years ago your warranty would be void if you installed it. Or actually I think it was a 30 day warranty or something along those lines. I've dealt with enough shops to know that a lot of times they dont give a **** about the install.
Theres some people that just cant afford it or just like to do their own work like me.
-Cody

phuz

I've got a 12w6v2 that is a pretty solid sub. Bose? Nah. Overpriced? Sure, gotta make money somehow.

I wonder how much it costs to make some LSi15s. Most everything in the industry has a high markup. Wether or not it's worth it is the question. In some cases, the JL subs are worth it... just like my LSi15s were worth their money.

spwuinmk67

I'll also chime in here, and say I'm not a big fan of JL either. I'm not saying that they don't have good equipment, because I can't say so, not enough experience with them. From my dealing with them, I'll stay away. I went to a shop, looking to listen to all different companies. The salesman says they have a nice set of Boston Acoustics and some JL XR's. The Boston's couldn't be demoed, but he had the XR's in his car, and I could listen if I wanted to, fine. So I come to find out, that not only is his front stage JL, so is his rear stage, his subs, his amps, his RCA's. his power wire, his speaker wire, his jacket, his hat, his employees all have JL, the install he was currently re-doing is going to be JL. And tried telling me the previous install had poor quality components, Crossfire amps aren't poor quality. If that's the way their dealers are, I'll pass on their equipment.

MacLeod

Now how ironic is this?

Im a huge JL Audio fan and have been for years. However, over on the car audio side Im the ONLY JL fan. I have to listen to this crap all the time. "JL is Bose", JL is crap", "JL sucks", "blah blah blah". Hell, me and Cody have been arguing about this for about a year now!

Now I come over to the home audio side and find some allies! This just made my day! LOL

Now if I could just get you guys to come over to the CA side and back me up every once in a while.

And just for the record, ALL of their stuff is priced about the same as other comparable equipment.

Toxis

Originally posted by exalted512
now theres subs like i have mentioned before that surpass the w7 in spl, sq, and do so at half the price.

I'm sorry but the Brahma is a killer sub for SPL but it will never have the SQ of a W7. The only other sub out there than HONESTLY has good SQ and SPL is the Image Dynamics IDMax. Period. This is why I'm slowly getting away from Car Audio. To many companies try to compete with the quality brands and get followers to believe they make the best stuff in the industry and JL is crap. It's just funny that everyone thinks JL is junk when they're the brand being compared to. Obviously they're doing something right. Coming from someone who has actually sold car audio for the past 6 years, I can honestly say I've never had a company with 1. better customer service, 2. less customer issues, and 3. good equipment at a very reasonable price.

Originally posted by exalted512
their amps are pretty nice. too expensive, but pretty nice. their XR series components are ok...i almost got them instead of the diamonds i used to have. but they were a little out of budget, and i couldnt bring myself to support a company who bends over its customers.

Wow. Bends over it's customers? The only reason their prices are higher than say Adire or eD is because they sell to retailers and are not Internet based. Internet dealers cut out the middle man and that definitely cuts out a huge chunk of money. Now take your Bramha and put it in a retail store and watch the price get right up there with the W7. Someone obviously needs to learn a little something about business and how it works.

Originally posted by exalted512
and who cares about impedance levels of speakers?
i, for one, and know of many others.
if you buy a 2 ohm capable amp youre not going to be using it to its full capabilites. a lot of people like to use class a/b amps because they like their sound quality better.
can they do that with a w7?
nope, sorry, theyre not 3 ohm capable. this is where most companies have DVC subs. Is there an option for a DVC or something else besides a 3 ohm sub? Nope, sorry.

Are you serious? If you buy any QUALITY A/B amp, you won't have a problem on a 3 ohm mono load. I've done it for years. Sure you can say they did it to run their amps over others, but that's just good business! Why wouldn't you try to get people who are buying your subs buy your amps? That's how you make money! Is it a bad thing? No. That's why they're doing so well and can make the best engineered subwoofer ever created. Name one other sub that has been engineered for over 10 years and only uses 4 screws that are not manufactured in house. Again, car audio is getting f-ing pathetic.

Originally posted by exalted512
I'm obviously not going to convince you guys of anything, but whether you like it or not, JL IS overpriced and they dont do much to help out their customers unless they buy all JL products. Hell, up to a few years ago your warranty would be void if you installed it. Or actually I think it was a 30 day warranty or something along those lines. I've dealt with enough shops to know that a lot of times they dont give a **** about the install.
Theres some people that just cant afford it or just like to do their own work like me.
-Cody

Cody, you're joking right? I honestly can't read this and think "This guy actually believes this crap he's spatting here." Obviously you're a consumer and not a retailer. JL takes care of their customer's better than most companies on the market. Honestly, the only company I know that has a better CS team is Polk. I've had many buddies who compete in USACi and IASCA and run JL. When their at a major show and if let's say a tweeter pops during a sine sweep or if a grill cover gets scratched, who's right there fixing it for them? YUP! The JL guys. Amazing company, amazing support, amazing product. That's why you pay more at a retailer for quality equipment than buying off the internet to some company you "heard" has a good sub. I guarantee if you took two identical cars and put in two identical systems only changing the boxes (obviously so they're tuned for the subs) and the subs from Brahma to a W7, judges would pick the W7's sound quality 95% of the time. If you want to continue this arguement, fine. Find a list of WINNING sound quality competitors that use Bramha's and then find the list of people using JL. Let's compare which list is longer. If you happen to prove me wrong and I can't find evidence that you're fudging numbers or whatever, then I'll admit defeat right here. Until then, go back to being a basshead with no ear for sound. Thank you, drive through.

Originally posted by spwuinmk67
And tried telling me the previous install had poor quality components, Crossfire amps aren't poor quality. If that's the way their dealers are, I'll pass on their equipment.

are you serious? You actually think Crossfire makes a high quality amp that actually sounds good? If you honestly think this, than so does AudioBling and Man-piss (audiobahn and memphis). I also bet the Chevy Cavalier is one of the best built cars on the road too.

Toxis

Originally posted by MacLeod
Now how ironic is this?

Im a huge JL Audio fan and have been for years. However, over on the car audio side Im the ONLY JL fan. I have to listen to this crap all the time. "JL is Bose", JL is crap", "JL sucks", "blah blah blah". Hell, me and Cody have been arguing about this for about a year now!

Now I come over to the home audio side and find some allies! This just made my day! LOL

Now if I could just get you guys to come over to the CA side and back me up every once in a while.

And just for the record, ALL of their stuff is priced about the same as other comparable equipment.

Ironic? Not ironic at all. The car audio industry is geared towards to kids that think all bass is the way to go. Oh, and there has to be bling too! I say it's not ironic because most of the people who actually CARE about sound quality have started to leave the car audio market because of the way everything's going. If things change and get back to being what sounds good, and not always loud, then you'll see car audio start to thrive again. Well, it'll at least be fun again. Adults don't like big bass, large amounts of distortion, and flashy amps that sound worse than they look. I'll back you up any day of the week man. JL is a great company and you're right, they're very much priced where they should be. Problem is, the internet is hurting the industry and everyone has to have their **** cheap. Well, you are getting your **** cheap, that's why JL is not cheap. Home audio is more about the sound quality, not the volume of your rap music.

I have been getting away from the car audio side of it for many reasons. 1. I'm sick of having my car broken into and as my last car experienced, entire car getting stolen by punk 15 year old kids who can't afford their own stuff. 2. The industry is leaning a way that I do not believe in or want to be apart of. 3. I don't listen to today's typical music. It's recorded like ****, there's little to no talent needed these days, and it's all about how much money you have, what kind of bling you have, and all the **** you bang. WHO CARES? People who have to constantly brag about what they have have deeper issues they need to work out. Life is about much more than that.

People are just jealous because their brands are always being compared to JL, and not against other brands. When a company is obviously the reference level everyone is trying to reach, why are they considered the bad brand? That's right........jealousy. Jealousy of being that brand. Period.

spwuinmk67

Originally posted by Toxis
are you serious? You actually think Crossfire makes a high quality amp that actually sounds good? If you honestly think this, than so does AudioBling and Man-piss (audiobahn and memphis). I also bet the Chevy Cavalier is one of the best built cars on the road too.

I never said they make high quality products, just not poor. That is also only one reason of a few I mentioned as to why I choose not to deal with their stuff.

As far as competitors who run their equipment, of course the JL guys are gonna be there if those guys have a problem. They are the one's getting JL the recognition, getting JL the word of mouth. So yeah, they'll take care of those guys, but what about the average everyday consumer? I cannot say for sure, cause I haven't dealt with that aspect, but if it's anything close to what I dealt with at their dealers' shop, I'll pass on experiencing it at all.

exalted512

I have some stuff to do so I'll make this short and sweet.
1. brahmas have lower distortion and a flatter BL curve than a w7, in fact, the entire car audio industry if i remember correctly. i dont have time to look it up but feel free too.
2. id take the sound quality of a brahma over a w7 any day of the week, especially at the price. the w6 is better, the w7 is not. dont believe me? go to any forum you want, carsound.com, caraudiotalk.com, sounddomain.com, elitecaraudio.com, caraudioforum.com--take your pick. youll see about a 80-20 in favor of a brahma over the w7, but people have their personal preferences.
3. jealousy is not a factor, thats probably the most unfounded argument in this whole thing--please dont tell me you know how i feel, i assure you you have your head up your **** on that one
4. no other brands of subs have a problem with making their subs with standard wiring options.
5. so the part that i believe that i was "spatting out," what specifically was wrong with what you quoted? id sure as hell like to know.
6. i wonder why you dont see many brahmas at audio competitons, maybe-JUST MAYBE they dont sponsor a lot of people. and maybe they dont have a huge name like JL...but im probably just spatting again:rolleyes:
7. you sound like the typical shop guy. "JL is great because its what i carry and its all i know"
so just because i havent sold stuff means i dont know what im talking about?
hmm...im willing to bet theres a few guys on here that havent sold HT stuff but do know a helluva lot about it.
have you ever heard a brahma not tuned for spl?
8. so young people dont care about sound quality anymore? well thats odd b/c the components in my truck happen to be the same components in scott buwaldas car. he would be the world reknown SQ champ. sound quality comes first and foremost with my system. having my sound quality loud is a plus.
and guess what? once im done with my new truck, hopefully by the end of the year, it will be hard to even hear it at full tilt outside the vehicle--even with 3600 watts continous(USAmps baby:D)! Why? because im actually one of those people who do not care if the car next to me can hear me.
ill be dropping close to $600 on sound deadener to improve the bass response up front, prevent rattles, and keep the sound inside the vehicle.
you obviously dont know me or what i like and youre generalizing me into a "bass head" category of which im not. like i said, sq first, spl second
-Cody

Toxis

yeah I sound like a shop guy but I know a hell of a lot more than what I used to sell... that's right, the shop I work for now doesn't even sell JL. I loved the whole "sponsored" comment. JL does not sponsor many people unless they work for a shop that carries their stuff, or have an extremely well known car in the competition circuit. Brahma doesn't sponsor people? Probably because they don't have the money to afford it. Also, you don't see them in competition because they're all SPL. You claim tehy have lower distortion than the W7, prove it. I want to see stats from reputable sources. Again, they're not an SQ sub... sorry if I hurt your feelings but guess what........the truth can be ugly.

exalted512

give me until next week, ill have your proof
-Cody

MacLeod

Toxis, youre my new best friend! Although I would disagree that Crossfire makes crappy amps. Ive been using 2 of them for about 9 months now and they are not only clean as a whislte but put out oodles of power with plenty of headroom.

Ill have to stick up for my bro Cody here, he knows his SQ. He likes big bass but he also know how its supposed to blend and be an extension of the midrange. He may be a youngster but he knows what he's talking about.

As to the "overpricing" of JL, lets compare, shall we?

Their excellent E series amps are in the $200-400 range which is the same as MTX, Crossfire, Rockford Fosgate, Hifonics.

Their high end, fully regulated Slash series range from $450-1000. The same league as Xtant, Alpine V12, PPI, Orion, US Amps and DLS.

Their components run from the $200 TR's, $300 VR's, $375 XR's to the $800 ZR's. This is right in line with virtually all other SQ speaker manufacturers.

The W6 which is their super sweet SQ sub goes for $300-500. The same as pretty much all high end SQ subs.

The super sub, the W7 goes for $400-900. The same as an Orion H2, top end Focal, Diamond Audio, Treo, USD, RE, Soundstream, Phoenix Gold, Kicker, MTX, MA Audio and on and on and on.

Is JL Audio the best stuff on earth? No. But they are among the best and are priced comparable to the best.

exalted512

just for clarification, i wouldnt put jl on the same level as usamps, dls, orion, or the old ppi, and even then, i wouldnt put usamps on the same level as orion or the ppi, id probably rate them sligtly higher than DLS
-Cody

audiobliss

Wow...this really blew up.

All I was saying was that, even discounting price, Bose is junk. JL Audio actually has some quality.

VR3

Mike...

This thread was going to blow up the second it was posted...

Just was...

Just spend 5 seconds at the CA section, and knowing CA members venture on here...

Wasnt long until it went...BOOM

spwuinmk67

And what is that supposed to mean? I'm not trying to start fights, trying to make a point. I'd like to know what you mean by:

This thread was going to blow up the second it was posted...

VR3

Ok...

Go into the car audio section....

go to SEARCH

Type in JL* Audio

Ok, now I want you to read every post, and I want you to tell me how many positive comments you find over negative comments.

Ok, now I want you to write down who says these negative comments, and I want you to think if they travel on this side of the forum...

Ok, and if they do, do you think they would reply to a thread that says JL and subwoofer in the same sentence?

Ok, now that I know that your on the same page as me....

This was a bomb...

No one is more guilty than the other, but it was a bomb...

Adire Audio makes AWESOME drivers for the price, and they cost quite a bit less than the JL new - two brahmas for one 13W or w/e it is...

I think I'd go with the Brahma... if you would pay double the price for a lil bit better accuracy, then you seriously are way way to dedicated...

Possibly therapy

And yeah, the above post is tounge and cheek, means nothing - dont even reply to it, because this is my last reply in this thread..

audiobliss

Originally posted by spwuinmk67
And what is that supposed to mean? I'm not trying to start fights, trying to make a point. I'd like to know what you mean by:

haha...not trying to start a fight...sure do seem awful defensive there....

yeah, I'm done here, too

exalted512

ok bro, i was able to get it a little earlier than a week
actually, im cutting out of time i should be spending on physics...lol
http://www.adireaudio.com/Files/XBL2TechPaper.pdf
http://www.adireaudio.com/Files/XBL2DetailsPaper.pdf
http://www.adireaudio.com/Files/DUMAX/BrahmaDumax.pdf
http://www.adireaudio.com/Files/DUMAX/JL-10W7.pdf
this is how one of my friends Chris summed it up

"Traditional subs BL drops, the farther away from the centered "at rest" position the cone moves.
In normal operation, this means the subwoofer's BL (motor strength) level fluctuates every single time the sub moves in and out... getting weaker, passing through the strong zone, then weaker again, stronger, weaker, stronger, weaker. Every cycle.
(40hz = 40 "cycles" per second, btw )

And this fluctuating motor strength level causes distortion known as "intermodulation distortion" (ie. modulation of the motor strength) - which is said to be the #1 cause of audible distortion.

XBL^2 comes closer to solving this problem than any, because it flattens the BL curve, theoretically as far out as the designer would like to make it (of course, there are practical - $$$$ - limitations to any design ).
But for a sub like the Brahma, that means the BL level is ruler-flat out to nearly 28mm in each direction.
That means the sub can reach up to 54mm peak-to-peak excursion levels without suffering from intermodulation distortion.

The JL W7 motor is very good too - for a traditional overhung design, it's amazingly flat within a shorter range - but you can see that is only good to 20mm in this case, before sharply rolling off - and it's not nearly as symmetrical (you can see differences on the in-stroke side of the curve, vs. the out-stroke side of the curve).
Those differences really aren't audible, as it is a nice clean sub, but I saw (have?) a DUMAX plot of a larger size (12W7?) that really showed an assymetrical curve shape - it was somewhat ugly.

Just something to pass on.

Also - with the tremendous non-linear suspension capabilities of the W7's drool-worthy chassis and suspension design - far in excess of the motor's linearity - and far in excess of the Brahma (who's basket limits it just a bit farther beyond it's motor's linearity), you probably would have a better chance arguing the W7 as "built just for SPL purposes".

...although, for the money, you could buy two Brahmas - and that would be louder, surely."

-Cody

phuz

I had an IDQ10v2 ($160) once that sounded better than my 12w6v2 ($469)

Nyaaanyaaaaaa!


*runs and hides*

goingganzo

this sub is way over priced my sub has 8+L of displacement
the small jl has 6L
the big has 12L
and my new sub will have 26L of displacement. and for the same price as the small jl

exalted512

In all honestly, at least in car audio, displacement doesnt mean louder. the CV stroker, one of the best SPL subs of all time only has like 12mm of x-max. Displacement counts a lot in sealed, not so much in ported. so dependent on the type of your box, the displacement may or may not matter:)
-Cody