Is it Time

heiney9 · June 2005

Originally posted by MacLeod
If you take amp A and amp B, hook them up to the same speakers and set them to the same power you wont hear a difference. This has been proven in double blind tests conducted by audio magazines, editors, engineers and conventionsfor over 20 years and NOBODY has EVER done it.

But this doesnt mean all amps are identical. For instance, you take a 100x2 and a 40x2 there will be differences in the sound due to more power from the bigger amp but you wont hear one be warmer or have smoother highs. Those are characteristics of speakers not amps.

Likewise, you take a Denon 110x7 receiver with top notch processors and EQ's and compare it to a cheap RCA receiver there will be a difference in sound due to the better EQ's and processors and more power. Now these can be warmer or smoother because they each have different EQ settings, processors and soundfields. But a simple gain block amplifier with no EQ's and putting out 100 watts will sound no different than another gain block amplifier with no EQ's putting out 100 watts.

I've read the Stereophile article on said subject, plus others I don't believe it. I've heard differences, very real differences. Explain why I can use and Adcom 535 (60 watts per) and compare it to a Yamaha (300 watts per) and have the Adcom sound better in every respect? Generally a higher output amp (not nec watts, but higher current) will sound different. 100 watts from 1 manufacturer DOES NOT sound the same as 100 watts from another manufacturer. I will humbly agree to disagree with your statements!

That Adcom embarassed that Yammy. Sure at 5-10 watt output, not much difference. So if you listen to background music at a very low level maybe your statement has a degree of truth. Not many of us listen at that low level, however.

Just a little friendly discussion

H9:)

MacLeod · June 2005

Ya gotta consider tho that Adcom is actually putting out its rated power and then some probably. That Yamaha isnt. Lower end receivers dont make anywhere near their rated power. A 100 watt Yammie wont be nearly as powerful as a 100 watt Adcom or the like.

Thats why these double blinds control the output power so that each amp is putting out the same power. Like I said, you will hear a difference in an amp that is putting out more power.

Also, receivers have a lot of EQ's and soundfields that change the sound. Nobody is saying there is no difference in EQ's and soundfield processors, just the amps.

heiney9 · June 2005

Originally posted by MacLeod
Ya gotta consider tho that Adcom is actually putting out its rated power and then some probably. That Yamaha isnt. Lower end receivers dont make anywhere near their rated power. A 100 watt Yammie wont be nearly as powerful as a 100 watt Adcom or the like.

Thats why these double blinds control the output power so that each amp is putting out the same power. Like I said, you will hear a difference in an amp that is putting out more power.

Also, receivers have a lot of EQ's and soundfields that change the sound. Nobody is saying there is no difference in EQ's and soundfield processors, just the amps.

Hey man......I respect your POV but I just don't agree. Why would someone spend big $$$ on a Krell or Conrad Johnson or Mark Levinson, when they could just buy Adcom, Parasound or Outlaw. It's all in the design. You mean to tell me a Mosfet amp will sound the same as a bi-polar amp? NO. Now if you are saying that a simple amp circuit with like componets will sound the same, in theory yes......in it's purest form. But that's not how they are built and marketed in the real world. Each manufacturer has a goal when they design a product, since the goals are different how can the product be EXACTLY the same.

Again, I get you point of a simple gain amp with similar parts may sound very similar, but that ain't the world we live in and there are distinct differences in audio componets outside of power output.

On the Yammy Adcom comparo....Even if the Yammy produced 1/2 it's power and the Adcom doubled it's power by your theory the Yammy should sound the same. After that I never sold another Yammy amp....to embarassed. I won't even get into how well the Nakamichi receivers did in that comparison vs. the Yammy.

H9

aaharvel · June 2005

"You mean to tell me a Mosfet amp will sound the same as a bi-polar amp? NO."

agree with you h9.
and also of the fact of Yamaha amps.

There's defintely a difference. Even at low volume, my H/K 235 blows away old sony es. Two totally different types of sound.

trolling, trolling, trolling.... (j/k=)

MacLeod · June 2005

Richard Clark of Car sound and Performance magazine has a challenge set up.

You do a double blind test between 2 amps of which you can choose and all you have to do is pick out the differences. If you do you win $10,000.

You guys should go take it. Think of all the stuff you could buy with 10 grand!

heiney9 · June 2005

Ok, I'm going to concede some ground here. Those of us who have owned our particular equipment for a long time know how our systems sound on a very intimate level. Right? Now when I change stuff out here at home in my listening environment and all other components, cables, etc being the same I can hear an immediate and definite difference.

I'll admit, in listening environments other than my own, some equipment changes aren't so apparent. That doesn't mean they aren't there. In a sense our brain has been conditioned for what it hears in OUR own system and we can pick up changes in the sound pretty quickly and easily from different components.

Best example is when my good friend changed his Kenwood rec w/ a Denon. I wasn't really used to the signature sound of his system and didn't hear much of difference during A/B swapping. He did hear a marked difference. I eventually heard a slight difference over time.

So the challenge, though very fair and scientific is problematic IMO. Why do you think good reviewer's always compare equipment with their OWN reference system. Because, they need a base-line to compare differences.

A/B'ing random components just isn't a practical way to discern radical differences in sound. I really feel everyone needs a base-line element in the comparison to really be a good judge.

Let me take the amps home and try them out in my system with my favorite/familiar musical choices for 30days, now that would be a good test.

Just some thoughts

H9

VR3 · June 2005

He was using a Yamaha amp that put out more power than that Adcom could do in a life time... old Yamaha amps are absolute power houses, 100%...I've seen one just like it run an entire inwall house system, garage speakers, and a pair of mains at reference levels volumes for extended periods...

You cant knock around those old Yammer amps...absolute beast...

marker · June 2005

Originally posted by cfrizz
You could split the difference and get the Denon receiver & an Outlaw amp. That way you will have both the power & the processing you want.

^What she said!^

heiney9 · June 2005

Originally posted by Vr3MxStyler2k3
He was using a Yamaha amp that put out more power than that Adcom could do in a life time... old Yamaha amps are absolute power houses, 100%...I've seen one just like it run an entire inwall house system, garage speakers, and a pair of mains at reference levels volumes for extended periods...

You cant knock around those old Yammer amps...absolute beast...

That's the one!!!! And yes the lowly little GFA-535 could drive our most ineffecient/power hungry/low ohm speaker with less strain than the Yammy. Even at the edge of clipping the Adcom stayed very composed. The Yammy went into clipping much sooner than you would expect and just didn't have the refinement or slam.

I guess the reason I remember this so well is that we were all very suprised. At the time I never expected the little Adcom to do so well. I didn't mean to give the impression earlier that the Yammy was junk.....I was just trying to emphasize my point.

Actually the big Nak receiver (SR-4A) at 75 watts with high current Stasis design out did the Yammy as well.

Final point this happened in 1988, almost 20 years ago and it left an impression on me. I'll admit some of the facts may have gotten lost in my brain over the years. The general outcome is true, however.

H9

VR3 · June 2005

I'm sorry, but my Dad runs 2 Adcom GFA-535, AND that same Yamaha amp, the Adcom amps give way MUCH sooner, by a long shot...almost sounds as if the Yamaha was messed up.. because I dont believe I've ever seen it clipping except when we tried to make it run the 1.2tl...and it got them up to pretty decent levels...

A very nice amp, not sure if I like its sound signature, but it had alot of balls.

marker · June 2005

Is that the Yamaha MX-200?

VR3 · June 2005

I believe it is the MX 800u - I found the pic off an EBay auction, its the same one my Dad has, thats about all I know...

marker · June 2005

There used to be an Yamaha amp, I believe it was the MX-200 but I could be wrong (and probably am) that Yamaha engineers claimed was far superior to the old Adcom 555.

heiney9 · June 2005

Mx-800u sounds about right. Right time frame and the pic looks the same.

Don't remember anything about Mx-200.

Although I was thinking earlier before Sid posted the pic that maybe the model #'s from that era wer M-50; M-80; M-100. Just can't remember that detail. The speakers we used were large ADS towers....maybe something like LM-510 or LM-810 and the original Mirage M-1 Bi-polar towers.

That's so long ago.......my recollection of model #'s is gone

H9

heiney9 · June 2005

Here it is Yamaha M-80 see pic, if I attatched corretcly.

heiney9 · June 2005

Here are the guts of the next model under the M-80. The M-65 same line of products less power.

heiney9 · June 2005

Sid, the Mx-800u may be a very different animal than the M-80 that was used in my experience. Don't know. The Mx-800u looks more beastly:D Atleast in the pic.

H9

VR3 · June 2005

Fact is, I'll never own a Yamaha amp. I've owned FIVE Adcom amps. And I'll probally own more in the future, I feel lost without my Adcoms...never should sold em all! ha! Not like I'd have a use for em, but they're nice to have around!

RSTERN · June 2005

Marker,
I will proably get a outlaw amp and a newer denon reciever. Unless a ref. 50 would happen to fall into my lap. I heard on last week in a home theater. The surround sound much better than my yamaha. Can't wait to get the 2900.
Rob

heiney9 · June 2005

Originally posted by Vr3MxStyler2k3
Fact is, I'll never own a Yamaha amp. I've owned FIVE Adcom amps. And I'll probally own more in the future, I feel lost without my Adcoms...never should sold em all! ha! Not like I'd have a use for em, but they're nice to have around!

I agree. I was never to taken with the Yamaha sound back then, and the older stuff (from late '80s) was certainly better than today's stuff. I still have my Adcom and it has never disappointed me, and I bought it new in 1988-89.

H9

heiney9 · June 2005

Originally posted by RSTERN
Marker,
I will proably get a outlaw amp and a newer denon reciever. Unless a ref. 50 would happen to fall into my lap. I heard on last week in a home theater. The surround sound much better than my yamaha. Can't wait to get the 2900.
Rob

That combo is a very popular choice around here. You should be very happy with that set-up.

H9

McLoki · June 2005

Originally posted by John K.
Rob, if you want the more up to date features of the 3805, then it would be a fine buy, but both the Yamaha and Denon receivers are transparent in amplifying the sound. When all factors, especially loudness, are adjusted to be equal there's no audible difference between them(or the Outlaw combo for that matter).

Watts may be similar between an AVR and an external amplifier, but capacity (sustained and reserve power) and amps (as in amperage) will be dramatically different.

To be fair, you may not hear much of a difference if you have an easy speaker load that you are trying to run. Hook up some SDA's or LSi's to both and you will (or at least most would) be astounded at the sound difference - even when playing at the same volume. (at both low and high spl's)

Michael

Shell · June 2005

I wish what MacLeod, says was true. It sure would be alot cheaper. The fact is most Japanese reciever/amps are low current amps. High current amps sound much warmer and indeed are able to run power hungry speakers better. However processors do have a greater difference in sound. MacLeod is way off there. If you just change a DAK in a receiver you will hear a huge difference in sound quality. Quality of components mean everything in equipment thus the price difference.

unc2701 · June 2005

just my experience, but when I sold my Adcom 565 monoblocks and moved everything back to my 110 watt Yamaha, both my roommates noticed- and they're deffinietly not audiophiles by a long shot. I didn't tell them when I switched it out (the mono's were still in their usual spot) and the first one came up and was like "Uhhh, dude? I think I'm doing something wrong with your stereo... something sounds wrong..." A day later, the second one walks in winces and says "Did you guys blow a speaker or something?..."

That's about a double blind as you can get- Both of them didn't know I'd changed anything and immediately knew something was wrong.

MSALLA · June 2005

mistake. WRONG POST SORRY.

MacLeod · June 2005

Originally posted by heiney9
I'll admit, in listening environments other than my own, some equipment changes aren't so apparent. That doesn't mean they aren't there. In a sense our brain has been conditioned for what it hears in OUR own system and we can pick up changes in the sound pretty quickly and easily from different components.

So the challenge, though very fair and scientific is problematic IMO. Why do you think good reviewer's always compare equipment with their OWN reference system. Because, they need a base-line to compare differences.

A/B'ing random components just isn't a practical way to discern radical differences in sound. I really feel everyone needs a base-line element in the comparison to really be a good judge.

Let me take the amps home and try them out in my system with my favorite/familiar musical choices for 30days, now that would be a good test.

Just some thoughts

H9

In all the amp challenges I know of, you can bring your own amps. You can sit and listen to them for hours if you wish to familiarize yourself with them. You can bring your Adcom and your Yammie. Then you control the switching, the type of music, the selection of the track. You can repeat the same track over and over, you can switch back and forth as much as you like with the same line of the song looping.

These tests are set up in your favor in every way except being able to see which amp youre listening to.

Originally posted by Shell
I wish what MacLeod, says was true. It sure would be alot cheaper. The fact is most Japanese reciever/amps are low current amps. High current amps sound much warmer and indeed are able to run power hungry speakers better. However processors do have a greater difference in sound. MacLeod is way off there. If you just change a DAK in a receiver you will hear a huge difference in sound quality. Quality of components mean everything in equipment thus the price difference.

No it wouldnt be any cheaper cause I never said all amps are the same. You get more and cleaner power, better design and build quality, better reliability, better features and processors with a higer priced receiver/amp.

A high current amp will sound "warmer" when compared to a low current amp because its putting out much more power which increases the bass output. You compare a high current amp to a low current amp putting out the exact same power and there will be no difference.

I think I said processors and EQ's can drastically effect sound quality. How am I way off?

aaharvel · June 2005

Heiny makes a great point about personal listening environments and reference gear.

I replaced a Sony DE935 with a harman kardon 235 at less than half of the advertised watts. Yet there was No comparison which sounded better (i think you guys can figure that one out yourselves

After I re-assigned the H/K to Pre/Pro duties and brought in Adcom 5300 and 7300 amps- again- i noticed a difference- and all for the better. When I did an A/B comparo with the H/K and Adcom's on my Rti4's tweeters, there was an absolute difference in sound characteristics between the two amplifiers.

heiney9 · June 2005

MacLeod,

I guess this is a stale mate. I respectfully agree to disagree. I've attached a few amplifier links. If you read the contents of these links, not nec understand them word for word, I'm not sure how you can still stand by your opinion.

The contents of the articles can get a bit technical but it should point out all the different variables in amplifier design. With so many variables......how can they all sound the same?

link 1:

http://sound.westhost.com/amp_design.htm

link 2:

http://www.rocketroberts.com/techart/powerart_a.htm

After reading these, I'm not sure how one can still say "amp A=100 watts and amp B=100 watts, therefore their is no difference in sound"

Just some thought provoking articles to spur the debate.

H9

MacLeod · June 2005

Originally posted by heiney9
MacLeod,

I guess this is a stale mate. I respectfully agree to disagree. I've attached a few amplifier links. If you read the contents of these links, not nec understand them word for word, I'm not sure how you can still stand by your opinion.

The contents of the articles can get a bit technical but it should point out all the different variables in amplifier design. With so many variables......how can they all sound the same?

After reading these, I'm not sure how one can still say "amp A=100 watts and amp B=100 watts, therefore their is no difference in sound"

20 years of scientific testing is hard to look passed. And remember, Im saying they sound the same only if compared equally.

OK. How bout this? All amps have a frequency response graph that is virtually ruler flat from 20-20K Hz at 0db. Now, how can one amp be brighter than another with the same frequency response?

If you took 2 different EQ's and set them both flat, would one be brighter than the other one? Would one have tighter bass than the other? No! They would sound the same!

One last analogy. Could a certain brand of batteries make a flashlight's light a different color? Could Energizers make the flashlight burn blue while Duracells make it burn more red?

Dont quit now, this is kinda fun!

heiney9 · June 2005

Originally posted by MacLeod
20 years of scientific testing is hard to look passed.

OK. How bout this? All amps have a frequency response graph that is virtually ruler flat from 20-20K Hz at 0db. Now, how can one amp be brighter than another with the same frequency response?

If you took 2 different EQ's and set them both flat, would one be brighter than the other one? Would one have tighter bass than the other? No! They would sound the same!

One last analogy. Could a certain brand of batteries make a flashlight's light a different color? Could Energizers make the flashlight burn blue while Duracells make it burn more red?

Dont quit now, this is kinda fun!

I think it's a pretty universal thought that amp specs are generated using methods of simulation. The load in real life(speakers) on the amplifier is infinitely variable. Just because you can graph a flat response from 20hz-20khz doesn't mean the amp can repeat this output in the "real" world. In fact no amplifier will. Testing methods are very subjective and can be manipulated very easily to show a desired outcome. Testing using simulation doesn't convince me one bit how an amplifier will perform in a "real life" situation. At best it's a rough guideline.

H9

Is it Time

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