Source vs Speakers...read the conditions first

steveinaz
steveinaz Posts: 19,538
edited February 2005 in 2 Channel Audio
Let's make the following assumptions to keep everything on a level playing field:

(Control group): You have a $1,500 power amplifier (choose whatever you like).

You're going to have only 3 components; a power amplifier, a cd player, and a pair of speakers. Which component will have the most notable effect on overall sound?
Source: Bluesound Node 2i - Preamp/DAC: Benchmark DAC2 DX - Amp: Parasound Halo A21 - Speakers: MartinLogan Motion 60XTi - Shop Rig: Yamaha A-S501 Integrated - Shop Spkrs: Elac Debut 2.0 B5.2
Post edited by steveinaz on
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  • RuSsMaN
    RuSsMaN Posts: 17,987
    edited February 2005
    No brainer, speakers.

    I've always believed in finding speakers you like first, then figure out the back end of the rig, and what combos sound best to you.
    Check your lips at the door woman. Shake your hips like battleships. Yeah, all the white girls trip when I sing at Sunday service.
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  • dorokusai
    dorokusai Posts: 25,577
    edited February 2005
    Speakers.
    CTC BBQ Amplifier, Sonic Frontiers Line3 Pre-Amplifier and Wadia 581 SACD player. Speakers? Always changing but for now, Mission Argonauts I picked up for $50 bucks, mint.
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  • Tour2ma
    Tour2ma Posts: 10,177
    edited February 2005
    Speakers... at least 80% of the equation...
    More later,
    Tour...
    Vox Copuli
    Better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. - Old English Proverb

    "Death doesn't come with a Uhaul." - Dennis Gardner
    "It's easy to get lost in price vs performance vs ego vs illusion." - doro
    "There is a certain entertainment value in ripping the occaisonal (sic) buttmunch..." - TroyD
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  • PolkThug
    PolkThug Posts: 7,532
    edited February 2005
    I'm gonna go out on a limb and choose speakers.
    Never Forget
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  • George Grand
    George Grand Posts: 12,258
    edited February 2005
    Speakers are the wooden things that make the noise right? Yes? Okay, then it's the speakers. That's my vote. You can shut down the poll now. All the heavyweights have checked in.

    George Grand (of the Jersey Grands)
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  • TheGrayGhost
    TheGrayGhost Posts: 196
    edited February 2005
    Speakers and then cables.
    Best Regards, Cliff
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  • Loud & Clear
    Loud & Clear Posts: 1,538
    edited February 2005
    I'd like to suggest that it's all going to sound poorly without exotic interconnects and speaker wire. I find wire that I'm comfortable with first, then I match speakers and components to suit my wires.

    Two Channel Setup:

    Speakers: Wharfedale Opus 2-3
    Integrated Amp: Krell S-300i
    DAC: Arcam irDac
    Source: iMac
    Remote Control: iPad Mini

    3.2 Home Theater Setup:

    Fronts: Klipsch RP-160M
    Center: Klipsch RP-160M
    Subwoofer: SVS PB12NSD (X 2)
    AVR: Yamaha Aventage RX-A2030
    Blu Ray: Sony BDP-S790
    TV Source: DirecTV Genie
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  • Loud & Clear
    Loud & Clear Posts: 1,538
    edited February 2005
    Originally posted by George Grand
    You can shut down the poll now. All the heavyweights have checked in.

    George Grand (of the Jersey Grands)

    :p

    Happy Valentine's Day.

    Two Channel Setup:

    Speakers: Wharfedale Opus 2-3
    Integrated Amp: Krell S-300i
    DAC: Arcam irDac
    Source: iMac
    Remote Control: iPad Mini

    3.2 Home Theater Setup:

    Fronts: Klipsch RP-160M
    Center: Klipsch RP-160M
    Subwoofer: SVS PB12NSD (X 2)
    AVR: Yamaha Aventage RX-A2030
    Blu Ray: Sony BDP-S790
    TV Source: DirecTV Genie
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  • TroyD
    TroyD Posts: 13,077
    edited February 2005
    1. Speakers
    2. Source
    3. Pre
    4. Amp

    Source and pre are pretty close IMO.

    BDT
    I plan for the future. - F1Nut
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  • phuz
    phuz Posts: 2,372
    edited February 2005
    w00t

    Speakers, of coz.
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  • reeltrouble1
    reeltrouble1 Posts: 9,312
    edited February 2005
    Originally posted by TroyD
    1. Speakers
    2. Source
    3. Pre
    4. Amp

    Source and pre are pretty close IMO.

    BDT

    Pretty much agree I might put the actual listening room ahead of the amp.
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  • Shizelbs
    Shizelbs Posts: 7,433
    edited February 2005
    Speakers. I'd like to second the room acoustics being a big player.
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  • TroyD
    TroyD Posts: 13,077
    edited February 2005
    Originally posted by reeltrouble1
    Pretty much agree I might put the actual listening room ahead of the amp.

    Actually, I'd put the room and setup at the top of the list.

    Don't think a room can do some funky stuff to the sound of your speaks, ask hoosier.

    How you digging those SRS's, Ted??

    BDT
    I plan for the future. - F1Nut
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  • George Grand
    George Grand Posts: 12,258
    edited February 2005
    L & C,

    Glad you liked it. I made a funny.

    The room wasn't a choice BDT.

    George Grand (of the Jersey Grands)
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  • reeltrouble1
    reeltrouble1 Posts: 9,312
    edited February 2005
    Originally posted by TroyD

    How you digging those SRS's, Ted??

    BDT

    :D:D:D

    As the Tim the Tool Man said "MORE POWER" These babies like lots of juice.

    RT1
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  • TroyD
    TroyD Posts: 13,077
    edited February 2005
    Originally posted by George Grand


    The room wasn't a choice BDT.

    George Grand (of the Jersey Grands)

    They don't call me BDT for nothing, you know.
    I plan for the future. - F1Nut
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  • Toxis
    Toxis Posts: 5,116
    edited February 2005
    Not a single vote for source yet... go figure. :D
    Never kick a fresh **** on a hot day.

    Home Setup: Sony VPL-VW85 Projo, 92" Stewart Firehawk, Pioneer Elite SC-65, PS3, RTi12 fronts, CSi5, FXi6 rears, RTi6 surround backs, RTi4 height, MFW-15 Subwoofer.

    Car Setup: OEM Radio, RF 360.2v2, Polk SR6500 quad amped off 4 Xtant 1.1 100w mono amps, Xtant 6.1 to run an eD 13av.2, all Stinger wiring and Raammat deadener.
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  • steveinaz
    steveinaz Posts: 19,538
    edited February 2005
    Edited because with hindsight, it was an ignorant thing to say.
    Carry on....
    Source: Bluesound Node 2i - Preamp/DAC: Benchmark DAC2 DX - Amp: Parasound Halo A21 - Speakers: MartinLogan Motion 60XTi - Shop Rig: Yamaha A-S501 Integrated - Shop Spkrs: Elac Debut 2.0 B5.2
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  • LuSh
    LuSh Posts: 887
    edited February 2005
    Steveinaz your attempts are pathetic at best...you're more or less trollling now...to the point I really don't care to post on this forum anymore. Who cares about a $49 CD player, compare that creek to mine and you will hear differences...honestly have you ever heard a $3k-$5k CDP? Have you heard a $3k-$5k pair or speakers? I'm assuming you've heard the latter.

    Obviously the speakers CHANGE more because it colors the sound more, it adds and takes away, as you move up the chain in CDP's they only ADD information, unlike speakers. This does NOT mean that the source is any less important. This poll has no merit on a SPEAKER FORUM...try the same on Audiogon, the results might be quite different, in fact I know they would be. If you were closer to where I lived I'd gladly show you the difference between a $49 CDP, a Creek and my reference combo....

    I'd also like to see a show of hands of EVERYBODY who has heard a $5k CDP vs a $5k set of speakers. My guess almost everybody has heard the speakers, very few could even name a CDP costing near that. Now I'm forced using dollar amounts because on a forum like this very few people have heard or know what a higher end source is. Most people have wasted THOUSANDS of dollars on amplification and wiring when their source is a DVD player.
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  • jdhdiggs
    jdhdiggs Posts: 4,305
    edited February 2005
    Originally posted by LuSh

    I'd also like to see a show of hands of EVERYBODY who has heard a $5k CDP vs a $5k set of speakers.

    Ooh, ooh! I Have, I have!!! And I'd much rather have the speakers.
    There is no genuine justice in any scheme of feeding and coddling the loafer whose only ponderable energies are devoted wholly to reproduction. Nine-tenths of the rights he bellows for are really privileges and he does nothing to deserve them. We not only acquired a vast population of morons, we have inculcated all morons, old or young, with the doctrine that the decent and industrious people of the country are bound to support them for all time.-Menkin
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  • AsSiMiLaTeD
    AsSiMiLaTeD Posts: 11,726
    edited February 2005
    Lush, you're way off base here...

    First, Steve is an excellent contributor to the forum, this is far from trolling.

    You're here with your typical babble 'I have reference gear, you can't understand what I'm talking about' speech...we've all seen it before.

    You said the poll has no merit becuase it's on a speaker forum...SO WHAT. Yes this is a speaker forum, so what do you expect? It's not like anything said on here is the final word anyway, it's just a forum, not a sceitific inquiry into which is better...

    Your generalizations are way off about what people on here have heard. How could you possibly have the knowledge to accurately make that statement?

    Just becuase you're in the minority you decide to lash out...very nice...
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  • AsSiMiLaTeD
    AsSiMiLaTeD Posts: 11,726
    edited February 2005
    Oh, and yes, I've heard several Meridian and Lexicon players over 4K. Yes, they're nice, but would sound like crap hooked up to a cheap set of speakers...
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  • LuSh
    LuSh Posts: 887
    edited February 2005
    I have never once said acted like I know everything, I have opinions. People on this forum have emailed me about questions and I have responded, and vice versa.

    Steve did this to get a rise out of people plain and simple. I don't think I'm in the minority. I just don't think the other members that know, waste their time on polls like this. Price really has nothing to do with the issue. It's more about building a foundation. You act as If I'm the outsider, I think you're wrong friend. Cheer up, it's only a forum.

    ps, the typical babble comment was quite funny, like I said champ, people ask for my advice, you might take it as babble others certinaly don't. goodluck in your adventures.
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  • AsSiMiLaTeD
    AsSiMiLaTeD Posts: 11,726
    edited February 2005
    Originally posted by LuSh
    I just don't think the other members that know, waste their time on polls like this.
    Hmm...so you're suggesting that the people who responded to this thread 'don't know'?

    just noticed that most of the members whose opinions I have learned to respect have chimed in on this thread with their thoughts, save a few (Jesse and a couple others come to mind).

    I'll be curious to see who all responds and how the overall verdict turns out.

    I reacted like an **** becuase you entered this thread that way...acting like an ****.

    I don't know Steve personally, but I think anyone that's been around here long enough to know him realizes that you're off base. I don't think the intent is trying to get a rise out of anyone...just curious where everyone falls on each side of the line and what the general consensus is.
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  • Early B.
    Early B. Posts: 7,900
    edited February 2005
    Here's the essence of what Lush said:
    Obviously the speakers CHANGE more because it colors the sound more, it adds and takes away, as you move up the chain in CDP's they only ADD information, unlike speakers. This does NOT mean that the source is any less important.

    Seemingly, this statement has merit, but not in the context of this thread. The original question was "Which component will have the most notable effect on overall sound?" Obviously most people chose speakers, regardless of the reasons. Kind of a loaded question, though.

    Lush, I'm assuming from your perspective that the "best" speakers are those that provide the least coloration to the sound. Are we talking full range drivers here?
    HT/2-channel Rig: Sony 50” LCD TV; Toshiba HD-A2 DVD player; Emotiva LMC-1 pre/pro; Rogue Audio M-120 monoblocks (modded); Placette RVC; Emotiva LPA-1 amp; Bada HD-22 tube CDP (modded); VMPS Tower II SE (fronts); DIY Clearwave Dynamic 4CC (center); Wharfedale Opus Tri-Surrounds (rear); and VMPS 215 sub

    "God grooves with tubes."
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  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,641
    edited February 2005
    I havnt heard a 5,000 dollar CDP..

    But I have heard a couple 10,000 dollar ones...

    Speakers set a foundation, they are what actually produces the sound. If you dont like how something sounds, the chances of your changing the gear to make u like it is highly unlikely....
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,546
    edited February 2005
    Yeah Steve, I'm right here and I voted awhile ago....wanna quess which one is mine?

    I had the chance to compare a $70.00 (about) cdp which was highly modded, so add another $100.00 or so in parts vs a $6500.00 cdp here at my house. After about half a song on the inexpensive cdp the other person and I just looked at each other, hit stop and disconnected it.

    I've lost count the number of times I've read about someone here upgrading their power amp or cdp and reporting that their speakers all of a sudden came to life. Hmmm.....so it wasn't the speakers, was it!?!

    Now, I've also heard $23k speakers with a $7k amp and a $6k cdp and those speakers sounded like crap. Why? The answer isn't easy because there are too many variables involved. Each one of those pieces have received great reviews, so what we have is the possible lack of synergy or bad room acoustics. Since the room was acoustically treated then one could draw the conclusion that it was lack of synergy. As MM pointed out in the other thread, synergy plays a huge role and is most likely THE most important aspect above all others regardless of the price points.

    Having said all that, I still believe that garbage in will result in garbage out.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • Early B.
    Early B. Posts: 7,900
    edited February 2005
    F1 is right -- there are too many variables. Besides, how important is this issue? Let's be real -- virtually no one uses a $49 DVD player on a high end audio system, and no one uses Sears speakers with a reference system, so what the hell are we arguing about? The bottom line is that we buy components that "match" our wallets. If each of us had fatter wallets, we wouldn't even be discussing this issue.

    Yeah, that's the problem. We're just a bunch of broke-**** MF's talking a bunch of bullsh*t because that's what broke-**** MF's do. :eek:
    HT/2-channel Rig: Sony 50” LCD TV; Toshiba HD-A2 DVD player; Emotiva LMC-1 pre/pro; Rogue Audio M-120 monoblocks (modded); Placette RVC; Emotiva LPA-1 amp; Bada HD-22 tube CDP (modded); VMPS Tower II SE (fronts); DIY Clearwave Dynamic 4CC (center); Wharfedale Opus Tri-Surrounds (rear); and VMPS 215 sub

    "God grooves with tubes."
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  • organ
    organ Posts: 4,969
    edited February 2005
    Speakers:)
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  • steveinaz
    steveinaz Posts: 19,538
    edited February 2005
    Lush, F1Nut:

    You guys took my intent the wrong way. Actually I was surprised at your opinions and wondered how many more felt that way.

    I agree that your primary source is VERY important, no doubt. I just don't think that (my opinion, now) they have nearly the impact on attaining the sound you want that a speaker change can have--especially for the performance-to-cost ratio.

    Forums are all about opinions; I may not agree with you, but I respect your opinion, and I'm curious as to why your opinion differs from mine, thats all. No need to take it personally.

    In my 32yrs of collecting hi-fi I've wasted a ton of money. What I try to do is shed a little light based on my experiences, to the new folks, so they don't do the same or at least minimize the damage. I was trying to "draw-out" some the older/wiser folks with this poll to see if maybe I was in left field on this one...

    Like I've said before, the most important thing is that you enjoy your system, regardless of personal priorites or methodolgy in selecting equipment.

    Can I get a hug now?

    Source: Bluesound Node 2i - Preamp/DAC: Benchmark DAC2 DX - Amp: Parasound Halo A21 - Speakers: MartinLogan Motion 60XTi - Shop Rig: Yamaha A-S501 Integrated - Shop Spkrs: Elac Debut 2.0 B5.2
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