How clueless are HDTV purchasers?

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  • jmierzur
    jmierzur Posts: 489
    edited January 2005
    Originally posted by Sami
    It does require both. That was my original point, there aren't any affordable true HD sets available, unless you count in used CRT front projectors. How many times have you heard someone say to come and check out their HD projector and then see them having a 800*600 native projector downscaling HD source? :)

    There are lots of 'affordable' HD sets these days compared to prices of just one year ago. Your definition of affordable may be different than another's definition.

    Looks like the public is either being mislead when purchasing or is not well versed in HD technologies. My guess would be both.

    Never looked at or considered purchasing a svga (800 x 600) display. If they are marketed as HD, then this is wrong according to the US HD definition.
    Originally posted by Sami
    Is there even true HD broadcast out there? True HD TV's that are affordable? It seems like people buy 720p TV's thinking that they are HD. 1920x1080 (1080i), I don't think there are any broadcasts where both the signal and the source are both 1080i.

    Your original post on the HD specification. 720p is true HD. 1080i is true HD. 1080p is true HD.
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  • Sami
    Sami Posts: 4,634
    edited January 2005
    Originally posted by jmierzur
    There are lots of 'affordable' HD sets these days compared to prices of just one year ago. Your definition of affordable may be different than another's definition.
    "My definition" of HD is what is different as I am going by the official specification of 1920 by 1080. There aren't many affordable sets that can display 1080i or 1080p. I saw some $7000 plasma sets but I hardly call them affordable. 1080i set, over 50 inches for less than $3k. If one can point me to a brand name with those specs I will go and buy one.

    No 1080i, not a true HD set. I'm not saying there is nothing wrong with 720p or 480p, just that by specs they aren't HD sets if they can't display 1080i. 720p might be HD but a set is not HD if it can't display both. I guess that point has now been presented and I will stop beating it.
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  • polksda
    polksda Posts: 716
    edited January 2005
    Originally posted by Sami
    There aren't many affordable sets that can display 1080i or 1080p. I saw some $7000 plasma sets but I hardly call them affordable. 1080i set, over 50 inches for less than $3k. If one can point me to a brand name with those specs I will go and buy one.

    I must be misunderstanding something. A 50"+ set that will do 1080i under $3K? They're all over the place.

    My Mitsubishi RPTV is a 1080i set, and I paid less than $3K for a 65" over a year ago...

    Or are you excluding CRT-based RPTVs and only condsidering DLPs, LCOS, Plasma, etc.?
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  • PhantomOG
    PhantomOG Posts: 2,409
    edited January 2005
    Originally posted by Sami
    "My definition" of HD is what is different as I am going by the official specification of 1920 by 1080. There aren't many affordable sets that can display 1080i or 1080p. I saw some $7000 plasma sets but I hardly call them affordable. 1080i set, over 50 inches for less than $3k. If one can point me to a brand name with those specs I will go and buy one.

    No 1080i, not a true HD set. I'm not saying there is nothing wrong with 720p or 480p, just that by specs they aren't HD sets if they can't display 1080i. 720p might be HD but a set is not HD if it can't display both. I guess that point has now been presented and I will stop beating it.

    i don't understand you. you say 720p is NOT hd but in order for a tv to be "HD" in your opinion, it has to be able to display 720p... am i missing something here?

    where is your definitive source for this?

    from [url]www.hdtvoice.com:[/url]

    Please note that all current HDTVs only display in one HD format - either 1080i (CRT-based HDTVs) or a "720P type" format for Pixel-based HDTVs. All incoming HD formats are converted to this native HD format. It therefore makes little difference what the channel is broadcasting, since it will be converted by the TV. Also, most STBs have the ability (or mandatory) to change output formats.

    There are a couple of Princeton Monitors that can display both 720P and 1080i, but they are quite expensive and are more like computer monitors than TVs. There are also several TVs (and Plasmas) that can display at 1080P, however, they are currently extremely expensive.
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  • Sami
    Sami Posts: 4,634
    edited January 2005
    Originally posted by PhantomOG
    i don't understand you. you say 720p is NOT hd but in order for a tv to be "HD" in your opinion, it has to be able to display 720p... am i missing something here?
    Both 1080i and 720p. HD specification is 1920 * 1080 so to be HD it has to be able to display 1080i.

    polksda, which model do you have?
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  • PhantomOG
    PhantomOG Posts: 2,409
    edited January 2005
    Originally posted by Sami
    Both 1080i and 720p. HD specification is 1920 * 1080 so to be HD it has to be able to display 1080i.

    polksda, which model do you have?

    where do you see this? i want a source that says a tv must display BOTH 1080i and 720p to be HD.

    you say HD spec is 1080i, but then in the same sentence you say a "true" HD set has to display 1080i AND 720p. makes no sense whatsoever, and is contrary to all the information i can find on HDTV.
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  • Sami
    Sami Posts: 4,634
    edited January 2005
    Originally posted by PhantomOG
    where do you see this? i want a source that says a tv must display BOTH 1080i and 720p to be HD.

    you say HD spec is 1080i, but then in the same sentence you say a "true" HD set has to display 1080i AND 720p. makes no sense whatsoever, and is contrary to all the information i can find on HDTV.

    For starters:
    http://www.technofile.com/articles/hdtv_and_pixels.html
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  • jmierzur
    jmierzur Posts: 489
    edited January 2005
    Originally posted by Sami
    HD specification is 1920 * 1080 so to be HD it has to be able to display 1080i.

    Wrong. 'Your' definition of HD is incomplete. When you create your own country, you can revise your HD specification to only include formats you find acceptable.

    In the mean time and between time, I will keep my current HD TV with its native xvga display 'resolution' (1280 x 760) until HD TVs with a native display 'resolution' of 1920 x 1080 become common and affordable.

    Last I saw, JVC has a 1920 x 1080 native 'resolution' HD TV for about $10k. Sony has a projector for about $20k.

    Happy HDTV hunting.
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  • Sami
    Sami Posts: 4,634
    edited January 2005
    Originally posted by jmierzur
    Wrong. 'Your' definition of HD is incomplete.
    It's not my definition, it's the HD definition.

    http://skyvision.com/pages/information_center/hdtv_lingo.html

    High-Definition Television (HDTV) - A specific subset of the digital TV standard that features increased horizontal and vertical resolution, interlaced or progressive scanning, and widescreen images. HDTV refers to a complete product/system with the following minimum performance attributes:
    - Receiver: Receives ATSC terrestrial digital transmissions and decodes all ATSC Table 3 video formats
    - Display Scanning Format: Has active vertical scanning lines of 720 progressive (720p), 1080 interlace (1080i), or higher
    - Aspect Ratio: Capable of displaying a 16:9 image (1).
    - Audio: Receives and reproduces, and/or outputs Dolby digital audio.

    High-Definition Television (HDTV) Monitor - HDTV Monitor refers to a monitor or display with the following minimum performance attributes:
    - Display Scanning Format: Has active vertical scanning lines of 720 progressive (720p), 1080 Interlaced (1080i) or higher
    - Aspect Ratio: Capable of displaying a 16:9 image (1)
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  • PhantomOG
    PhantomOG Posts: 2,409
    edited January 2005
    all that article points out that alot of HDTV's today actually display 720p, and not 1080i.

    http://www.hdtvoice.com/voice/showthread.php?t=4801

    crt-based and tube HDTV's *DO* display 1080i natively and ARE HDTV. end of discussion.

    lcd,dlp,plasma almost all display 720p. does that make them not HD? well, according to you maybe, but by many 720p is considered to be superior to 1080i (especially for sports/action).

    read the whole article. NOWHERE does it say a tv must display BOTH 1080i and 720p to be HD. not even close.
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  • PhantomOG
    PhantomOG Posts: 2,409
    edited January 2005
    Originally posted by Sami
    It's not my definition, it's the HD definition.

    http://skyvision.com/pages/information_center/hdtv_lingo.html

    High-Definition Television (HDTV) - A specific subset of the digital TV standard that features increased horizontal and vertical resolution, interlaced or progressive scanning, and widescreen images. HDTV refers to a complete product/system with the following minimum performance attributes:
    - Receiver: Receives ATSC terrestrial digital transmissions and decodes all ATSC Table 3 video formats
    - Display Scanning Format: Has active vertical scanning lines of 720 progressive (720p), 1080 interlace (1080i), or higher
    - Aspect Ratio: Capable of displaying a 16:9 image (1).
    - Audio: Receives and reproduces, and/or outputs Dolby digital audio.

    High-Definition Television (HDTV) Monitor - HDTV Monitor refers to a monitor or display with the following minimum performance attributes:
    - Display Scanning Format: Has active vertical scanning lines of 720 progressive (720p), 1080 Interlaced (1080i) or higher
    - Aspect Ratio: Capable of displaying a 16:9 image (1)


    do you know what the word "OR" means?

    this means that 720p is considered HD by this companies website, and a TV only has to display ONE of them to be HD.
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  • PolkThug
    PolkThug Posts: 7,532
    edited January 2005
    Notice how it says of "x,y or z". This implies that it can be x or y or z.

    I think you are twisting the semantics to be "x,y and z". This would imply x and y and z.

    720p is an HD format. If a box can display all 720 lines, then it is an HD box.
    Never Forget
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  • PhantomOG
    PhantomOG Posts: 2,409
    edited January 2005
    Originally posted by PolkThug
    Notice how it says of "x,y or z". This implies that it can be x or y or z.

    I think you are twisting the semantics to be "x,y and z". This would imply x and y and z.

    720p is an HD format. If a box can display all 720 lines, then it is an HD box.

    exactly!
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  • jmierzur
    jmierzur Posts: 489
    edited January 2005
    Originally posted by PhantomOG
    do you know what the word "OR" means?

    this means that 720p is considered HD by this companies website, and a TV only has to display ONE of them to be HD.

    Sami, Sami, Sami.
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  • Sami
    Sami Posts: 4,634
    edited January 2005
    Originally posted by PolkThug
    Notice how it says of "x,y or z". This implies that it can be x or y or z.

    I think you are twisting the semantics to be "x,y and z". This would imply x and y and z.

    720p, 1080i OR higher = 720p OR 1080i OR higher.

    720p, 1080i, OR higher = (720p AND 1080i) OR higher.

    Yes, I know OR's, AND's, NOR's, NAND's etc. :)
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  • PhantomOG
    PhantomOG Posts: 2,409
    edited January 2005
    Originally posted by Sami
    720p, 1080i OR higher = 720p OR 1080i OR higher.

    720p, 1080i, OR higher = (720p AND 1080i) OR higher.

    Yes, I know OR's, AND's, NOR's, NAND's etc. :)

    if you notice on the website, one line has the comma and one doesn't, so it still doesn't prove anything.

    regardless, you're using one non-official website and silly semantics to try and change the definition of HDTV. believe what you want to believe, keep on telling yourself the earth is flat.
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  • Sami
    Sami Posts: 4,634
    edited January 2005
    Originally posted by PhantomOG
    if you notice on the website, one line has the comma and one doesn't, so it still doesn't prove anything.
    This has comma on both:

    http://www.digitalconnection.com/FAQ/HDTV_6.asp

    http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/pna/learn/about/chapters/0,,2076_3105627_3105648,00.html

    "The HDTV specification requires a minimum of 1080i or 720p scanning lines"

    "(Don't worry; any HDTV receiver can receive both formats, and a true HDTV television can display both formats.)"

    Whether they are really saying it can display 1080 downscaled to 720 and 720 upscaled to 1080.

    Anyway, I didn't mean to start format war so I will not comment anymore on the subject in this thread.
    Originally posted by PhantomOG
    silly semantics

    Nothing silly about it. Or higher was added there to include those sets with native or maximum resolution higher than those two. Therefore 720p AND 1080i, OR higher.
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  • PhantomOG
    PhantomOG Posts: 2,409
    edited January 2005
    from the pioneer website as well:

    When you're shopping for a new TV, remember this: at a minimum, an HDTV television-whether it's a projection television, plasma display, or traditional CRT type-must be able to display images at a minimum of 1080i or 720p.


    OR. you are picking and choosing small statements from all over and interpreting them in a way which is completely contradictory to the real world.

    my tv does 1080i only. it *is* an HDTV, i watch *HDTV* on it all the time and the picture is amazing.

    someone who owns a plasma or lcd that does 720p has an HDTV, and they are capable of watching HDTV on it and nothing you can do to twist words will change that.
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  • AsSiMiLaTeD
    AsSiMiLaTeD Posts: 11,728
    edited January 2005
    Man we're a bunch of nerds :D

    who frekin' cares!!!
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  • PhantomOG
    PhantomOG Posts: 2,409
    edited January 2005
    Originally posted by Polkmaniac
    Man we're a bunch of nerds :D

    who frekin' cares!!!

    sad ain't it :D
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  • Sami
    Sami Posts: 4,634
    edited January 2005
    Originally posted by Polkmaniac
    Man we're a bunch of nerds :D

    who frekin' cares!!!
    Hey, I've been on vacation for 4 weeks and I'm still off whole next week. I need something to do now that the house is fixed up and I decided to postpone hardwood floors until fall. :)

    Europe is going with 2500 by 1250 resolution, I'm sure the puny 720p, 1080i and 1080p standards will still look good though. :p
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  • TheGrayGhost
    TheGrayGhost Posts: 196
    edited January 2005
    From the digitalconnection website:

    (1) In specifications found on product literature and in owner's manuals, manufacturers are required to disclose the number of vertical scanning lines in the 16:9 viewable area, which must be 540p, 810i or higher to meet the definition of HDTV.
    Best Regards, Cliff
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  • Toxis
    Toxis Posts: 5,116
    edited January 2005
    It's funny how people who argue always change their story when one version gets called out.
    Never kick a fresh **** on a hot day.

    Home Setup: Sony VPL-VW85 Projo, 92" Stewart Firehawk, Pioneer Elite SC-65, PS3, RTi12 fronts, CSi5, FXi6 rears, RTi6 surround backs, RTi4 height, MFW-15 Subwoofer.

    Car Setup: OEM Radio, RF 360.2v2, Polk SR6500 quad amped off 4 Xtant 1.1 100w mono amps, Xtant 6.1 to run an eD 13av.2, all Stinger wiring and Raammat deadener.
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  • jmierzur
    jmierzur Posts: 489
    edited January 2005
    Originally posted by Sami
    Hey, I've been on vacation for 4 weeks and I'm still off whole next week. I need something to do now that the house is fixed up and I decided to postpone hardwood floors until fall. :)

    Europe is going with 2500 by 1250 resolution, I'm sure the puny 720p, 1080i and 1080p standards will still look good though. :p

    Good for Europe. I hope the EU has some new compression techniques to reduce the bit stream size. Where will you find a display device with a native resolution of 2500 x 1250 for this wonderful format. JVC's 1920 x 1080 RPTV is currently $10k US. Sony's projector is $20k. Might down convert good to a XVGA display. Looks good on paper though.
    Originally posted by Sami
    720p, 1080i OR higher = 720p OR 1080i OR higher.

    720p, 1080i, OR higher = (720p AND 1080i) OR higher.

    Yes, I know OR's, AND's, NOR's, NAND's etc.

    All this was from an errant comma!:rolleyes:

    Enjoy the rest of your holidays.
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  • opus
    opus Posts: 1,252
    edited January 2005
    Screw it............ I'm tossing out the hitachi lcd for my 19 in. 1983 Goldstar.
    About 30i lines of resolution and you have to change channels with a pair of pliers.

    No confusion here.
    The Flea rig
    Hitachi 50VG825 LCD
    Rotel RSP 1066 (pre) :)-flea market
    B&K St-202 (mains)-flea market
    Carver M 200t (x2) (center and surrounds)-flea market
    Blu-Ray..PS3 (dvd player)
    Polk RTA-11t-flea market
    LsiC, Fxi30's
    Dual SVS PC-Utra's (1 port blocked) thanks MikeC78
    Behringer Feedback Destroyer    -flea market
    AudioAlchemy DDE v1.0 DAC-flea market
    Cambridge Audio Azur 640 CDP-flea market
    Signal Cable and Kimber Kable
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  • mrmusicman
    mrmusicman Posts: 303
    edited January 2005
    It seems there is alot of confusion here about hdtv,just think what the general public is going through.

    My .02, is there are too many choices, plasma ,dlp,crt,lcd,hd ready ,ed,built in hd,1080,720,rear projection, front projection,wide screen, flat screen,$2000,$4500,$10,000....WTF:confused:


    Programing....?
    Outlaw 990 Processor
    Outlaw 755 Amp
    Denon 2900 dvd-sacd
    Dishnetwork HD-Dvr
    55" Sony LCD RPTV
    Lsi 9-fronts
    Lsic-center
    Rt55i- surrounds
    Velodyne cht-10 sub

    2007 Dodge Quad cab
    Kenwood Excelon KDC-X891
    JL Audio 300/V2
    Polk Audio SR 6500 - Fronts
    Polk Audio DB651 - Rear
    2 -10" Treo Subs
    Interfire IB 2600C sub amp
    Sirius Sat radio
    Ipod connection
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  • polksda
    polksda Posts: 716
    edited January 2005
    Originally posted by Sami

    polksda, which model do you have?


    Mitsubishi 65613. 480i, 480p, and 1080i only. Not only does it not display 720p, it will not accept a 720p signal period. Only downside to that I can possibly think of is that I cannot play HD Xbox games... but then again I don't play Xbox.

    I guess it's not a "true HD" set according to your definition, but for some reason both my OTA HD and Dish HD channels seem to display in stunning fashion...
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  • kwade89
    kwade89 Posts: 77
    edited January 2005
    we own a 56" in. plasma flat screen HDTV... we are running the DIRECT HDTV Tivo it is awesome
    Kaleb Wade

    -00' Chevy Silverado Ext. Cab 1500

    -Polk/MOMO-
    MM6
    MMc650
    MM2124<2
    -Phoenix Gold-
    PG 100.4x
    PG 100.2x
    -Sony-
    Explod HU F7005x
    Explod 10Cd 757mx

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  • Toxis
    Toxis Posts: 5,116
    edited January 2005
    I've never heard of a 56" plasma... 50's ok. 61's ok. No 56's...
    Never kick a fresh **** on a hot day.

    Home Setup: Sony VPL-VW85 Projo, 92" Stewart Firehawk, Pioneer Elite SC-65, PS3, RTi12 fronts, CSi5, FXi6 rears, RTi6 surround backs, RTi4 height, MFW-15 Subwoofer.

    Car Setup: OEM Radio, RF 360.2v2, Polk SR6500 quad amped off 4 Xtant 1.1 100w mono amps, Xtant 6.1 to run an eD 13av.2, all Stinger wiring and Raammat deadener.
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