How clueless are HDTV purchasers?

gmorris · January 2005

I was talking to a guy here at work yesterday, telling him how my father-in-law got a 50" Hitachi LCD widescreen for X-mas this year.

He said he got a 57" Mitsu CRT RPTV about a year ago. SO I asked him if he liked the HDTV capabilities & progressive scan DVD playback. He looked at me like I was nuts. He had no idea what I was talking about.

So I asked him how he used the thing. He said he has Direct TV (no HD service). I then asked him why he didn't just get an over the air antenna to pick up local HD channels. He had no clue that he could do that, for free none the less.

He also had no idea what a progressive scan DVD player was, or that he could use it with his digital TV.

After some more digging, I found out that he at least knew enough to play with the aspect ratio controls on the TV, to streeeeetch a 4:3 image into 16:9 (yuck).

I really have no point here. I don't mean to make this guy sound like an idiot, it just amazed me that he spent $1700 on this TV and has no clue what it can do. I just wonder how many people out there are buying DTV's, and "mis-using" them?

okiepolkie · January 2005

I just helped a coworker set up his Hitachi Ultravision HDTV. It is a very nice television. The problem was that he has had it for almost three years without the knowledge that he did not have HD. It took me about 5 seconds to figure that out when I went to his house to help him decide what HT to look at. We went to Time Warner that same day and traded for the HD box. The next day I went to his house and hooked it up, changed several menus, and hooked up his progressive scan DVD player using component cables(he had been using composite). They watched the NCAA champ game in HD and also watched a DVD that evening and even his wife commented on how much better the picture looked.

I went through the same thing with my father-in-law about a year ago. He spent over $2000 on the TV and didn't even know what the television could do.

I guess people like us are here to educate those that don't know.

HBombToo · January 2005

I think this is a perfect example of marketing efforts and profits coupled with an inexperienced sales force in general. Not to pick on the CC's and BB's of the world because this is just typical anywhere you go in my experience.

HBomb

okiepolkie · January 2005

Some of it has to do with the media, at least around here. As an example, there was an article in the Commercial Appeal(Memphis local paper) that did a little(very little) explaining about HDTV and what it meant for the average consumer. This article was published sometime during the week and the writer even griped that no asked them if they wanted to move to HD. I'm glad not many people got to read it(kind of hidden), but it still frustrating.
Apparently this person had not seen anything in HD yet.

Sami · January 2005

Hey, I was using "surround" sound for an extended period. I never was satisfied with the "surround" until I connected my DVD's decoder to 5.1 inputs...in place of the left and right channel cables. A friend then told me to use digital connection which I have not heard of before.

I have to confess, I really wasn't concerned about surrounds. I just wanted a good stereo sound as I didn't have a place to put my surrounds anyway. So I never did any research until I got into front projectors.

Sami · January 2005

Is there even true HD broadcast out there? True HD TV's that are affordable? It seems like people buy 720p TV's thinking that they are HD. 1920x1080 (1080i), I don't think there are any broadcasts where both the signal and the source are both 1080i.

gmorris · January 2005

Originally posted by Sami
Is there even true HD broadcast out there? True HD TV's that are affordable? It seems like people buy 720p TV's thinking that they are HD. 1920x1080 (1080i), I don't think there are any broadcasts where both the signal and the source are both 1080i.

Just plain wrong there Sami. There are alot of channels in 1080i. In my area, PBS & NBC are both 1080i. And my father-in-laws TV is certainly showing that signal in 1080i.

PolkThug · January 2005

There is a lot of ignorance regarding HDTV issues.

This is the number one ignorant statement:
The Myth: "I heard TV is gonna be all HD by 2006."

The Facts: The 2006 mandate only concerns over-the-air (OTA) broadcasting in digital. Nothing to do with HD, standard cable lines, or dish.

I don't blame the customers for their ignorance, the electronics store employees are just as bad on that one.

jdhdiggs · January 2005

My dad has a 50"+ HD plasma monitor that he never hooked up correctly. I rewired the whole system (Including sub and speakers) and magically now even my mom can work it and it was a night and day difference in presentation.

(DVD composite to monitor by analog sound to reciever? No wonder it all looked like a badly dubbed movie)

Sami · January 2005

Originally posted by gmorris
Just plain wrong there Sami. There are alot of channels in 1080i. In my area, PBS & NBC are both 1080i. And my father-in-laws TV is certainly showing that signal in 1080i.

How much of the source is 1080i though? Majority of it still seems to be upscaled.

TV's, majority of them seems to be lower resolution even when they advertise 1080i.

PolkThug · January 2005

"It seems like people buy 720p TV's thinking that they are HD."

Sami, 720P is considered HD. Think of it this way, 720P TV is leaps and bounds better than standard 480i television. You do hit on a very good note though. Most customers don't realize that their Plasmas, LCD's, and DLP's don't display native 1080i (or even know what "native resolution" is). My personal favorite is material filmed with 1080i cameras, sent to me in 1080i, and then displayed natively on a 1080i CRT RPTV.

"How much of the source is 1080i though? Majority of it still seems to be upscaled."

Very good point! Its going to take lots of time and lots of money to get all the directors/studios to use HD cameras.

polksda · January 2005

Problem #1: morons setting up displays in B&M stores. I cannot tell you how many times I've found $2,000 HDTVs hooked up to a $39 Apex DVD player via composite video. Better yet, HD demo boxes connected by S-video or composite (Voom demos at Sears were just horrible about this). The picture looks like ****.

Problem #2: Display models left at the factory default settings with the sharpness and contrast set to maximum, displaying the harshest most glaring picture you'd imagine. The picture looks like ****.

Problem #3: deceptive marketing that can be used. I especially hate TNT HD for this. They are constantly showing promos for Law & Order and Charmed reruns in HD. Yeah, the PROMO is in true HD. The actual episodes themselves are upconverted and nonlinear stretched NTSC, NOT actual HD. The picture looks like ****.

I can only imagine joe sixpack plonking down $$$$ for an HDTV, flipping to L&O and saying "This don't look much better than what I saw before. HD is a scam!"

Let's face it: the nuances of configuring home theater, progressive DVD, HDTV, OTA, CRT vs. DLP vs LCOS, composite vs. component vs. S-video vs. DVI vs. HDMI vs. VGA, 480i vs. 480p vs. 720p vs. 1080i vs. 1080p, are beyond the capabilities and understanding of the vast majority of consumers. That's not meant as a dig, it's just facts of life. This is a complicated area, and the standards are changing much more frequently.

Back in the day, when mid-fi and hi-fi were the domain of boutique shops, that premium price you paid for the equipment also came with the knowledge and expertise for setup and optimization.

Walking into BB or CC and buying a 40" plasma, a 65" RPTV, or a projector, gets you the box, a hard-sell extended warranty, and NOTHING else. Nada. Bupkis.

The vast majority of consumers who aren't familiar with audio and video are left flailing in the dark with how to evaluate and discriminate when purchasing.

In short, it's really not their fault.

gmorris · January 2005

Originally posted by Sami
How much of the source is 1080i though? Majority of it still seems to be upscaled.

TV's, majority of them seems to be lower resolution even when they advertise 1080i.

Oooohhh, I see your point now. Is the show originally in 1080i, or just upconveted to that? I get you now.

Sami · January 2005

Originally posted by PolkThug
Sami, 720P is considered HD.

But not true HD.

Originally posted by PolkThug
My personal favorite is material filmed with 1080i cameras, sent to me in 1080i, and then displayed natively on a 1080i CRT RPTV.

Replace CRT RPTV with CRT FPTV and you have the pinnacle of current home theater picture technology. I am waiting for a few things personally before I upgrade my 480i CRT FPTV:

HD DVD, what's the point of getting HDTV when movies are my main concern and 480p is the best you can get. HD VHS and HD broadcasts aren't convenient enough and not enough material. I don't think HD VHS will catch up so I'm waiting on HD discs.

Better digital technology that will get close to CRT in PQ. Has to be (semi) affordable.

In the meantime I might get a smaller setup for watching games etc in HDTV for my second living room. Maybe EDTV, not sure, HDTV is still too expensive when you factor in the limited amount of material you get to see in it.

PolkThug · January 2005

Originally posted by Sami
But not true HD.

If you're talking about true HD, then I know that you can only be talking about 1080P.

Sami · January 2005

Originally posted by PolkThug
If you're talking about true HD, then I know that you can only be talking about 1080P.

1920x1080 is the HD specification, no? 1080p, that's a bonus.

9 inch CRT FP, that would do 1080p and beyond. 2500x1406 (16:9 max for Barco 1209s for example) , I'm not sure how much difference one could tell versus 1920x1080. Getting one calibrated at those resolutions would be a PITA if you wanted any noticeable difference.

okiepolkie · January 2005

Also, the "installers" that come from BB and CC to hook up your stuff don't even know exactly what they are doing. I've helped several re-setup everything AFTER an "installer" was paid(I am usually not at this point) to hook everything up for them.

HBombToo · January 2005

when I bought my Sony 57" RPT it was not for HD but for 480p. I made sure the monitor could also handle 780p and 1080i when I finally did the upgrade on my DTV box. Fortunatly I did and now when the material is sent in their native format no additional processing is required.

The High Def Network and Discovery HD are so awesome in 1080i you will be amazed when you finally witness it. Well worth the additional expense(makes dvd look gettoish) and I really enjoy the movie channels and OTA digital as well.

HBomb

danger boy · January 2005

Originally posted by gmorris
I was talking to a guy here at work yesterday, telling him how my father-in-law got a 50" Hitachi LCD widescreen for X-mas this year.

He said he got a 57" Mitsu CRT RPTV about a year ago. SO I asked him if he liked the HDTV capabilities & progressive scan DVD playback. He looked at me like I was nuts. He had no idea what I was talking about.

So I asked him how he used the thing. He said he has Direct TV (no HD service). I then asked him why he didn't just get an over the air antenna to pick up local HD channels. He had no clue that he could do that, for free none the less.

He also had no idea what a progressive scan DVD player was, or that he could use it with his digital TV.

After some more digging, I found out that he at least knew enough to play with the aspect ratio controls on the TV, to streeeeetch a 4:3 image into 16:9 (yuck).

I really have no point here. I don't mean to make this guy sound like an idiot, it just amazed me that he spent $1700 on this TV and has no clue what it can do. I just wonder how many people out there are buying DTV's, and "mis-using" them?

it's ALWAYS ok to make fun of other people at their expense.. it often makes my day that much sweeter.

jmierzur · January 2005

Originally posted by PolkThug
[BSami, 720P is considered HD. [/B]

Sami, these are the three "true" HD specifications:

720p - 1280x720 pixels progressive
1080i - 1920x1080 pixels interlaced
1080p - 1920x1080 pixels progressive

Sami · January 2005

Originally posted by jmierzur
Sami, these are the three "true" HD specifications:

720p - 1280x720 pixels progressive
1080i - 1920x1080 pixels interlaced
1080p - 1920x1080 pixels progressive

To be a true HDTV it has to be able to display BOTH 720p and 1080i (not 1080 downscaled to 720). If it is just 720p then it is not HDTV.

Display Scanning Format: Has active vertical scanning lines of 720 progressive (720p), 1080 interlaced (1080i), or higher

Aspect Ratio: Capable of displaying a 16:9 image

I'm not trying to be anal here but a set that has resolution lower than 1920x1080 is not true HD. Most TV's marketed as HDTV are not that.

TheGrayGhost · January 2005

Originally posted by Sami
To be a true HDTV it has to be able to display BOTH 720p and 1080i (not 1080 downscaled to 720). If it is just 720p then it is not HDTV.

Display Scanning Format: Has active vertical scanning lines of 720 progressive (720p), 1080 interlaced (1080i), or higher

Aspect Ratio: Capable of displaying a 16:9 image

I'm not trying to be anal here but a set that has resolution lower than 1920x1080 is not true HD. Most TV's marketed as HDTV are not that.

Wrong! 1080i is the same as 540p which is less vertical resolution than 720p. Plus no rear projection TV can resolve 1920 horz lines. Most are around 1200 lines so you have 1200x540p on a so called 1080i HDTV.

Here is a good read as to why the DoD Mil Spec for HDTV is 720p.

http://www.atd.net/HDTV_faq.html

Toxis · January 2005

Unless you work in the retail electronics industry, I doubt you can honestly get a clue how bad people are informed about EVERYTHING! Daily, I have to explain what HDTV stands for, let alone what it is, how it works, what you need etc.

Customer "So I can get HDTV with this TV?"
Salesman "Yes, you just need a tuner which is usually built into your cable or satellite box."
Customer "Wait, you just said I could get HDTV with this TV... but now you say I need a box??"
Salesman "This TV does not have a decorder for HD so you just get that in your cable box, hook it up with the proper cables and you're all good! HD in your house is that easy."
Customer "But I thought you said I could get HDTV with this TV?"
Salesman *SIGH!!!*

Sami · January 2005

Originally posted by TheGrayGhost
Wrong! 1080i is the same as 540p which is less vertical resolution than 720p.

How is 1920*1080 less than 1280*720? Progressive scan does not double your resolution.

I'm sure 720p looks very good. 480p already is very film like on a good set, even on 100+ inch picture size.

PolkThug · January 2005

Originally posted by TheGrayGhost
Wrong! 1080i is the same as 540p which is less vertical resolution than 720p. [/url]

As I understand it, 1080i equals 540 odd lines plus 540 even lines and these lines are independently alternating which equals 1080 different lines total.

540p equals 270 odd lines plus 270 even lines, but these lines are de-interlaced (displayed at the same time) which equals 540 different lines total.

So yes it is true that with 1080i, only 540 lines are displayed at any given fraction of a second (and I think that is the point of the article), but they alternate so quickly your eye can't tell (unless of course there are crappy motion artifacts, but that's another topic). So, if we were to freeze frame two TV's for a split second, the 720p TV would show 720 lines and the 1080i TV would show either the odd or even 540 lines (at 1/60th of a second). So, a weak arguement can be made that on a 1/60th of a second level, 720p is superior.

The bottom line is that we don't watch TV for a fraction of a second, we watch in continuously, so 1080i will show more detail than 720P to our eyes.

Regards,
PolkThug

gmorris · January 2005

I agree with Polkthugs last comment, that is also how I understood things to be.

PolkThug · January 2005

Originally posted by gmorris
I agree with Polkthugs last comment, that is also how I understood things to be.

Yeah, that article that ghost posted is really strange, it is like some kind of anti-1080i propoganda. It starts out saying how NASA, DARPA and the DoD are researching HDTV, blah blah blah.. It then says some ridiculous things like "The simple reason for both is that 480p and 1080i (540/60i) use similar technology to produce images that are very similar in image quality." Uhh.. yeah, right...

Ahhh, the article was also written in February of '98 (I think this explains it, lol).

gmorris · January 2005

Well, to some things up from the end users point of view.....

Regardless of all the numbers and resolutions, if you put a quality signal (satellite TV, digital cable) that is not HD into a good "HDTV" the picture is still great. It only gets better when you put an HD signal into it.

Even if you have a widescreen TV, with no HD going into it, and stretch the picture, it still is pretty cool. Most people are satisfied with a similar arrangement.

Sami · January 2005

Originally posted by gmorris
Regardless of all the numbers and resolutions, if you put a quality signal (satellite TV, digital cable) that is not HD into a good "HDTV" the picture is still great. It only gets better when you put an HD signal into it.

Exactly. It all comes down to source quality and your TV's quality. 480p on good CRT front projector like my friends Sony VPH-1272Q looks so good that you are not longing for HDTV. Even my puny 480i looks way better than the entry level digital "HD" projectors like the Infocus 4805 I was considering due to "higher resolution" 480p. I'll keep it until I can afford a 9in CRT or the digital technology gets better and cheaper.

jmierzur · January 2005

Originally posted by Sami
To be a true HDTV it has to be able to display BOTH 720p and 1080i (not 1080 downscaled to 720). If it is just 720p then it is not HDTV.

Display Scanning Format: Has active vertical scanning lines of 720 progressive (720p), 1080 interlaced (1080i), or higher

Aspect Ratio: Capable of displaying a 16:9 image

I'm not trying to be anal here but a set that has resolution lower than 1920x1080 is not true HD. Most TV's marketed as HDTV are not that.

The 'true' HD specification requires a minimum of 720p or 1080i scanning lines. Do not confuse the HD specification with the resolution of the formats within the specification. This will only further confuse the issue.

When 1920 x 1080 resolution displays become affordable, I will replace my 1280 x 768 resolution display.

Sami · January 2005

Originally posted by jmierzur
The 'true' HD specification requires a minimum of 720p or 1080i scanning lines.

It does require both. That was my original point, there aren't any affordable true HD sets available, unless you count in used CRT front projectors. How many times have you heard someone say to come and check out their HD projector and then see them having a 800*600 native projector downscaling HD source?

How clueless are HDTV purchasers?

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