Lowering a porch ceiling for T&G

disneyjoe7 · January 2005

I will be redoing my porch ceiling damaged by the 3 hurricanes Central Florida had last year.

The drywall ceiling has gotten wet so it was stained, I painted this but wish to be removing all replacing it with a T & G v board. I wish to have a 45 degree design with a 90 degree recessed section so the 45 degree area will be lowered 3.5" so should I be **** a 2 x 4 in the ceiling joist or adding a 2x8 along the ceiling joist for this propose?

I think picture say 1000 words, and I can say 3 words so the picture may say another 997 words.

RobXant · January 2005

Let me go smoke a joint and see if this makes any more sense. Be right back...

Hmmm. Nope. Try the other 997 words, bro. Or dig out the camera! I'd love to help.

Rob

F1nut · January 2005

Originally posted by RobXant
Let me go smoke a joint and see if this makes any more sense. Be right back...

LOL

Steve, get that nice camera out and take some shots.

VR3 · January 2005

Those stains can be removed, there is a product Lowes and HD sell that you put on it first, then paint over it - ask them about it.

It can be done.

disneyjoe7 · January 2005

LOL

Rob.

F1Nut

Done I post later tonight when I have more time.

Sid,

Consider it done, it's coming down / T&G is going up.

dorokusai · January 2005

You're now entering.....The Twilight Zone.

scottnbnj · January 2005

i think i get it. sounds like a trayed ceiling. would you be talking about something that looks similar to this(minus t&g):

http://www.celebrationhomes.com/design.htm

or something like this:

http://www.woodweb.com/cgi-bin/forums/aw.pl?read=358580

)

disneyjoe7 · January 2005

Ok, Pictures are here. Porch ceiling will be replaced, with T & G boards. I painted this the ceiling, but it had mold on it so I will remove it all. A pool will be installed also (I would be doing this myself

) I will do the ceiling replace myself.

This first picture is the porch wood plan look. The circle with the small x are recess lights, the 2 small x in the middle are ceiling fans. The straight boards that showed up & down are recess 3.5" from the other T & G boards.

disneyjoe7 · January 2005

Porch ceiling picture now.

disneyjoe7 · January 2005

Porch picture 2

disneyjoe7 · January 2005

Porch picture #3

F1nut · January 2005

Geez, doesn't look like anything is wrong with it now, leave it alone.

disneyjoe7 · January 2005

Pool plan look with the porch plan.

disneyjoe7 · January 2005

Originally posted by F1nut
Geez, doesn't look like anything is wrong with it now, leave it alone.

It's just a NICE paint cover.

disneyjoe7 · January 2005

Pictures of the backyard where the pool will be installed. This also shows the way the ceiling joist is must be installed.

disneyjoe7 · January 2005

Picture of backyard #2.

disneyjoe7 · January 2005

Ok Pictures here, where's all the help?

F1nut · January 2005

When the pool is finished I'd be glad to help swim in it.

disneyjoe7 · January 2005

Originally posted by F1nut
When the pool is finished I'd be glad to help swim in it.

If you are ever down here PM me, you're welcome.:)

F1nut · January 2005

Thanks Steve, same here. Sorry, I'm not any help with your other questions.

scottnbnj · January 2005

maybe 2x4's perpendicular to ceiling joists or trusses. if you're not going to use straps or hangers, timberlock screws would work well to attach heavy, stiff, crooked or bowed furring strips to joists or trusses. you could use a lesser, lighter, more flexible and cheaper material than douglas fir or southern yellow pine like 2x4 or 5/4x4 spruce. here in nj i wouldn't hesitate to use 5/4x4 spruce but i know you have different considerations in florida. folks at the lumber yard might help decide. besides being easier to work with and much cheaper, spruce would allow you to use less expensive screws too. maybe 5" coated deck screws. if you use doug/fir, install wet, but, let dry before installing soffit material.

whatever soffit material you use will determine the spacing of the new furring/framing members. whoever sells the t&g or beadboard should be able to tell you the maximum spacing for use on ceilings @ 45 degree angle. if in doubt, go to the closer spacing, it won't make a big difference in time or material in your situation. also ask how much space the soffit material needs for expansion and contraction where it meets the wall.

if the soffit material must be wood, put at least one fine coat of primer and finish (front and back) before installing. light sanding might be a good idea with some material and if you use a water based primer you might think about raising the grain and light sanding again on the room side too.

i don't know your tool situation, but, if you don't have a cordless impact driver, this project would be a perfect excuse to upgrade from a drill. i noticed last night that amazon has a really good deal on reconditioned dewalts. they'll be gone fast. if you use a drill to drive screws you will not regret this buy. if you have a small compressor an inexpensive finish nailer would be worth the cost too.

if the pool creates a humidity problem, your roof needs more ventilation or if it just gets too hot in there, you can probably vent the ceiling either through or into the roof depending on your situation. you might pick the inspector's brains for any questions you have about the project when they come for the pool, but, if you're not getting permits don't let them see it open.

)

{edit}er,.. vent the ceiling either through the roof or into the attic...

disneyjoe7 · January 2005

Ok, I change my mind a little about this and I did think that 2X4" over the 2X4" ceiling trusses, but know thinking the I will put 2x4's perpendicular to ceiling trusses like you said because the ceiling trusses are 24" apart and I can add the 2X4" 16" apart. I also thinking about straps to hold the 2x4" so that are 3.5" lower. I will buy T & G southern yellow pine its 6" wide I think it's like 0.5" think or 0.75". I didn't this at my old house porch ceiling also so I know I can nail that T & G wood so the nail can't be see the wood can be nailed on way side the next T & G board is Tongue so this is nailed on the other side grove. This way gives the nail so it's invisible. This wood will leave a little V look on the ceiling between wood T & G it will like really nice

So this is not heavy that you may think so do I need straps? Or can I just nail it on an angle?

Ever time I go the Home Depot walk to the Paint area I talk to some one and tell what I will do they look like what you need like fence tint because of water? I don't really understand this house like many other I have seen used drywall on the ceiling nothing like green stuff nothing different that is on any wall in your house.

I don't think I need any vent to the attic, because the ceiling now doesn't have any vent. The house as attic vents around the whole house it's the metal vent that is open around.

Like I said I did this to my old house, but I had a different design because it was like 20x10ft not like my little L porch look. My old design didn't have any lower ceiling going on, and I did use 1x3 for the ceiling trusses because this was at the end of the house. The house roof was hip roof so trusses switched around at the corner, so my 1X3 that was at 16" space apart fixed this. The problem I had was a little mold that you could see on the ceiling (I could wash it ok as I wasn't too bad). This ceiling was tinted washout white so you can see the wood lines and any knots in the wood. I think this little mold problem was the heat in the ceiling and the air outside the moisture air we have in Florida.
My question is would insulation help this? As most porch ceiling and the garage ceiling are not usual insulated.

Thank you for you time scottnbnj

scottnbnj · January 2005

Originally posted by disneyjoe7
So this is not heavy that you may think so do I need straps? Or can I just nail it on an angle?

looks like a good plan. straps or hangers are overkill, but might be required by code. as i said, i know things are alot different down there. toe nailing is not strong and doesn't leave much margin for error and would be shot down by any code enforcement official i've ever met. a few toe nails would be good to hold the 2x4 in place while you fasten it or to drive an unruly member into submission.

another option that wouldn't beg new tools or alot of extra steps, you could do by yourself, would be pretty strong and would go fast is to nail (10d) a strongback (another 2x4) to the side of the new 2x4's on the ground (it would look like an L). then fasten it to the ceiling joists w/ 3" deckmate screws. if you're working alone just wedge it against the trusses or ceiling joists with a stud (from floor to ceiling) to hold it temporarily. you'd only have to use strongbacks in the field. the 2 against the walls get nailed, screwed or lagged to the top plates or studs of the walls. if you're worried about the center looking like it's sagging, you could do the strongbacks first then use a string to find the height for ones that get attached to the walls.

there are many ways to go without hangers that would be much stronger than the drywall you're replacing or toe nailing but in the end it might just make the most sense to use the straps even if you find that they're not required by code. i mean, you could be done with them in the time it takes to digest the other options and you'll never have to look back.

just make sure you wear ear defenders and/or plugs if you're nailing, especially over your head in joist bays.

Originally posted by disneyjoe7
I don't really understand this house like many other I have seen used drywall on the ceiling nothing like green stuff nothing different that is on any wall in your house.

green board shouldn't be used for ceilings inside or out, though, there is a special type of wallboard made just for exterior soffits.

Originally posted by disneyjoe7
I don't think I need any vent to the attic, because the ceiling now doesn't have any vent. The house as attic vents around the whole house it's the metal vent that is open around.

Like I said I did this to my old house, but I had a different design because it was like 20x10ft not like my little L porch look. My old design didn't have any lower ceiling going on, and I did use 1x3 for the ceiling trusses because this was at the end of the house. The house roof was hip roof so trusses switched around at the corner, so my 1X3 that was at 16" space apart fixed this. The problem I had was a little mold that you could see on the ceiling (I could wash it ok as I wasn't too bad). This ceiling was tinted washout white so you can see the wood lines and any knots in the wood. I think this little mold problem was the heat in the ceiling and the air outside the moisture air we have in Florida.
My question is would insulation help this? As most porch ceiling and the garage ceiling are not usual insulated.

are you asking about the old house or what you're working on now? in either case, i'd tend to think that moisture was prone to being trapped if there was mold before the hurricanes. i mean, from my humble north eastern experience, ventilation will be part of the solution almost every time, where solving for temp. differential is alot less likely.

in any case, when you get the drywall down it will be easier to see if there's a problem up there. if you do insulate, just make sure you don't block soffit vents and leave plenty of space for air to flow above it (does not touch roof sheathing). if there's mold in the attic, look for roof leaks or ventilation problems.

good luck.

Originally posted by disneyjoe7
Thank you for you time scottnbnj

no problemo.

)

disneyjoe7 · January 2005

Scott,

Ok, thanks for the replies you have me thinking about ties. Placing them up will make me sleep better, also I'll enjoy porch better knowing this isn't going anywhere.

I post pictures below options A or B? I seen B, but A looked good also when I went to website for pictures.

I thinking about you reply on moisture from pool water. I will use a blind nailing to mount the T & G board so I don't want to use any vents as I would see them. So thinking about cutting a small slit vent with a circular saw about 12-14" cuts between V's random though out ceiling, covering them on the inside with screen. This way the vents them self are also invisible.

What I'm on the fence about is the insulation. I really never added this stuff up so a 23"x93"x3.5" R13 is $56.81 I measured 10 rolls needed how $570 in insulation. :eek: This has me wondering if this is really needed? Hell it isnt now insulated.

disneyjoe7 · January 2005

Let's try this picture.

Option "A"

disneyjoe7 · January 2005

Option "B"

amulford · January 2005

Steve,

You could just frame out a "drop ceiling". Run a band of 1x4 around the perimeter, and frame it in with 2x4. Then you put up the T&G and don't have to worry about straps, plus you have nailing all around the perimeter, which you need anyway...

Kabeesh?

disneyjoe7 · January 2005

Originally posted by amulford
Kabeesh?

Yes I understand. Scott has me thinking the other way with ties do to any codes issues. The fact I had 105+ mph gusts winds with 90mph winds for 8hrs + I thinking ok ties... I bunker down in my closet better knowing this

amulford · January 2005

Since this is under the roof, you should be ok. You have to worry about the ties if the wind would be trying to lift it off, which in this case I don't think you'll have that problem, since the roof most likely already has ties. This is more or less a drop ceiling.

That being said, check with the local building inspector and check up on it. If you don't need them, it'll save you a few shekels...

I DO think you need to vent, though. The humdity will collect and condensate, which will lead to mold and premature rot. Nothing fancy, just drill holes in the existing ceiling along the outside (1" DIA. every 12") and use the existing venting in the attic.

disneyjoe7 · January 2005

by amulford
Since this is under the roof, you should be ok. This is more or less a drop ceiling.

Yes, but are we back to toe nailing 2X4"s?

by amulford
I DO think you need to vent, though. The humidity will collect and condensate, which will lead to mold and premature rot. Nothing fancy, just drill holes in the existing ceiling along the outside (1" DIA. every 12") and use the existing venting in the attic.

I agree about venting (I must say I didn't ever think about that before) you didn't like my idea below?

So thinking about cutting a small slit vent with a circular saw about 12-14" cuts between V's random through out ceiling, covering them on the inside with screen. This way the vents them self are also invisible.

Since the drop ceiling as a nice opening for venting I thought this would be fine.

Whats your thinking about this ceiling being insulated? My roofer gave this idea to me, as he said the heat works its way down and it's much cooler when he did it to his house, but for $570, still on the fence.

amulford · January 2005

No, you don't have to vent thru the T&G, but vent out the space behind it. You should already have venting in the soffits of the house. RU taking down the drywall? If no then you should make sure you have good ventilation in that dead space. If yes, be sure you have ventilation in the soffits.

Even though your attaching to the trusses, it's the trusses that need the "h" straps, not the ceiling. If the trusses are anchored, you should be fine. You could use them in the middle of the long span for rigidity, but you don't need them for hurricane code.

I don't think you'll need to insulate it, either, unless you plan on heating it. If it's going to remain a porch, make sure the living space is insulated. if you seal up the house to much, you don't get the proper ventilation, and the house will "sweat". Mold and stuff, rot, bad smells, kinda like sweaty drawers...;)

Lowering a porch ceiling for T&G

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