Upgrade thinking / preamps tube style

disneyjoe7

Ok, with all the tube talk around here and the great Tube stuff at Polkfest "04" I'm getting the upgrade bug (Good or Bad?)

So think of adding a preamp and a power amp to make it all work, adding this all to my Onk 898 AVR.

So whats good out there in Tube preamps?

F1nut

How fat is your wallet?

disneyjoe7

Originally posted by F1nut
How fat is your wallet?

Planning stage

Given this tell me what will make the best investment...

Onkyo 898 7.1 110wpc

Sony 300 CD changer

XM receiver

HK 2000a amp (this will be replaced with a multi channel amp of?)
and must likely a 7 channel amp.

RTi150's fronts.

The new tube preamp is for 2 channel only of the HT system.

F1nut

Steve, if it were me I'd start with a single disc tube CD player as the biggest bang for the buck upgrade, then look into a tubed pre amp.

Some choices in the $600 to $1k or so range:

Jolida JD100
AH! Njoe Tjoeb
Eastern MiniMax
Shanling T100

disneyjoe7

Originally posted by F1nut
Jolida JD100

Thanks Jesse.

That CD player is on my short list I know you liked it at Polkfest "04" and I liked it also.

So what do you like in the Tube preamp's...

Conrad Johnson is on the short list also, but which models to look for... also any others I should be on the out look for?

F1nut

CJ is a good choice for sure. If you want remote control you'll have to go for the PV14L or 17LS as the 10's and 12's don't come with one. Other choices with remotes worth looking into might be Cary, BAT, Audio Research and Jolida Envoy. I'm sure MM has a few he can add to the list.

disneyjoe7

As CJ goes can anyone explain the model numbers to me?

faster100

what about the old dynaco pas 3's ?? i want to try one of these as a second pre to play with aside my parasound pre, these any good for a vintage pre-amp? look kinda cool and tubes are pretty easy to get for them...

RuSsMaN

Remotes are for pussies and old men.

You don't want a friggin stupid little electric motor RIGHT on the volume pot, F'n up the sound.

I wouldn't go for a tube CDP either, not first. You won't get much 'tube' after it has to pass through the clusterfuck of transistors in your preamp.

Go tube preamp, then getter a better amp, then worry about the source being tube or not. I think at the pricepoint you start getting into tube cdp's, they are matched or bested by solid state offerings.

Cheers,
Russ

disneyjoe7

Originally posted by RuSsMaN
Remotes are for pussies and old men.

Ok, you know me I'm likely both... LOL


I wouldn't go for a tube CDP either, not first. You won't get much 'tube' after it has to pass through the clusterfuck of transistors in your preamp.

ROTFMAF


Go tube preamp, then getter a better amp, then worry about the source being tube or not.

I'm not sure how to add to my Onkyo 898 for 2 channel bypass if I don't add the amp first. May need to PM me I'm lost.



Russ

F1nut

Hmmm.....plenty of fine pre amps with remotes that aren't effing up a thing. Just an old wives tale these days.

Toss up on the tube cdp or tubed pre first, but I strongly disagree about SS vs tube cdp's in that price range.

CJ models go from the lowest number being the oldest.

RuSsMaN

Sorry Jesse, I prefer direct, short signal paths, with as little as possible in that path. Especially, cheap, noisy electric motors.

'Causing less harm' if you will. You don't think it makes a difference? Disconnect that motor, and listen for yourself.

On the SS cdp's I've demoed in the $500-$1000 price point, vs tube cdp's in costing roughly the same - the difference was negligable, if noticeable at all. Same with Tube vs SS Dacs.

Cheers,
Russ

DAGLJAM6

Steve,
I'd have to lean toward the tubed pre then the tubed cdp.
I personally was looking at tubed integrateds when the Jolida CDP I've got popped up (grab the deals as they come)
After some research ( and listening to Troy's rig) I decided that the CJ line looked most promising. I narrowed that down to the:
PV-5, PV-7(Troy's model if I can remember correctly), and PV-10.
All are the older series with quirks specific to that particular model
but I liked the sound and am willing to live with any shortcomings of a particular model in the line.
I found a PV-10 a week ago and should have it in a couple of weeks. I know that it's not the most perfect across the range of sound repro but WTF. Stress/details are for work music is for enjoyment.

Dave

disneyjoe7

Well my thinking is a Pre amp first, but my thinking is that I need an Amp first or at least a larger amp. My RTi150's are bi-amp'd using the Onkyo for the mid/highs. So need a large 2 channel for the preamp. (So if I need that then why not just replace it with a 7 channel 200wpc or better amp) I don't think it's possible to refeed the Onk 898 for the front channel mid/highs, no preamp's in.

BTW like the RTi150's. Fills the room / house with the bottom end it needs.

The CJ models I need help with are things like...

Line Stage?

PV 10BL?

PV 10AL?

PV 10b?

Just what is the lettering about? Line Stage? Pre Stage?


Ok Green

DAGLJAM6

Go here: http://www.conradjohnson.com/It_just_sounds_right/classic-products.html

For the technical side then check out :

http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/index.html

In the AA site check out preamps then run a search on Conrad Johnson. You'll get a multitude of opinions but loads of useful info about them.

Dave

DAGLJAM6

Oh and I forgot to mention don't limit yourself to CJ only. Doro showed me the Dodd line and they make an entry level as well as
a higher end model. (Dodd Audio)
Many great pre's out there but definitely do the research.

Dave

RuSsMaN

CJ would be a great brand to tryout. No-nonsense designs, and they hold their value pretty well.

I don't know if CJ follows the typical terminology - but 'Line Stage' is just that, a line-stage amplifier for all standard high-output sources. Ie CDPs, Tunas, Tape Decks, DVDPs, etc.

'Pre Amp' usually means the same as line stage, but can handle one or more low-output sources, ie Phono Moving Magnet or Moving Coil. I think in most of the earlier CJ designs, they used a pair of 12AT7 for the 'phono' section.

Like Dave said, LOTS of options out there, if you do look at Dodd Audio, let me know - and I'll see what I can get Gary to do for you.

Cheers,
Russ

disneyjoe7

Thanks

Russ & Dave..

I will check out the links.:D

dorokusai

I vote Tube Pre-Amp definetly, as I wouldn't personally do a tube CDP until I had nothing else to do.

If you do go tube pre....buy something other than mainstream if possible, be an individual.

There are many many brands to choose from other the aforementioned manufacturers.

F1nut

I'm all for high fidelity, but I'm not living in the stone age either, so I'll take the remote...thank you very much. Besides, ain't nothing cheap about the motor in my rig.

RuSsMaN

Well, I wasn't born in the stone age, so I can't reflect on what is what like back then. Old F.

Get a part number on that motor, I'll tell you how cheap (and noisey) it is.

Cheers,
Russ

hotwheelman

I'm curious how you get noise from a servo motor on the volume pot, and how in the hell is it in the signal path? I thought the pot for volume just shared the same shaft as the motor but were both seperate to each other electric wise. My old pioneer ht reciever never made any kind of noise and it was servo driven pot........enlighten me.

I did not hear any kind of any noise out of marks anthem when I used the mo at the gathereing either.

F1nut

Yeah yeah, you ain't no spring chicken!

RuSsMaN

Compared to you I am. I have flowing locks, like Samson. Not helmet head.

I have Vigor, and charm, and big sweaty hog-balls, full of life, energy, and an 'orb' like quality.

HWM, it's not in the signal path, I was generalizing my hatred of tone and balance controls at the same time. It does however, require power, and most are 'on' all the time whether you are adjusting the volume or not. Some esoteric models (Creek for example) have pots that ONLY get power, once the function is 'activated' and shut off immediately once the function is 'deactivated'.

Cheers,
Russ

disneyjoe7

Originally posted by F1nut
Yeah yeah, you ain't no spring chicken!

Not sure, but I think the alcohol could have aged him a little

dorokusai

I'm 100% down with remote controls, just don't have one right now. I don't like to put my beer down.

Originally posted by hotwheelman
I did not hear any kind of any noise out of marks anthem when I used the mo at the gathereing either.

Was that before or after someone Polk moron blew my output stage?

DAGLJAM6

And another thing to mention......

Once you decide then the real decisions have to be made.......

TUBES

I'm still amazed at the tonal differences between manufacturers,
Dates of manufacturing etc.. Do not be fooled once you've dropped the hammer the fun just begins. Russ knows ,I'm sure, about that aspect of tube bearing equipment.

Dave

RuSsMaN

Well, you are a ****, we all know that. Way to prove my point.

You still sit down to pee?

I hit the cave, pop a cd in, drop the needle - whatever, I Ronco that **** until the next selection.

Cheers,
Russ

hotwheelman

Originally posted by RuSsMaN

HWM, it's not in the signal path, I was generalizing my hatred of tone and balance controls at the same time. It does however, require power, and most are 'on' all the time whether you are adjusting the volume or not. Some esoteric models (Creek for example) have pots that ONLY get power, once the function is 'activated' and shut off immediately once the function is 'deactivated'.

Cheers,
Russ [/B]

I read ya, even if they do not share the same path it is still possible for the pot to pick up...what...... rf from the motor even if it is not in rotation?

hotwheelman

Ronco? Oh you noodle it to death. I don't think I want to be there to see that.

F1nut

Ah, too much excitement here tonight, had to take a short nap. Anyway, yep definitely a "orb" like quality about you, the rest.....yeah right.