bi-wiring?

Mike Fu
Mike Fu Posts: 7
edited January 2005 in Basic Hookup/Wiring Questions
My Yamaha receiver manual says I can bi-wire my front speakers (RTi10) on the receiver's A and B speaker outputs. This will use two separate sets of wires to each speaker. Is there any real-world benefits doing that vs. single-wiring? Any suggestions and input would be appreciated.

Mike
Mike
Post edited by Mike Fu on
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  • danger boy
    danger boy Posts: 15,722
    edited December 2004
    Welcome Mike,

    you may want to do a search on bi wiring .. this topic has been discussed at length several times on here..

    I bi wire my front and center channel speakers.. and i notice a slight improvement in the openness of them.. but not everyone is convinced that biwiring does anything much or at all.

    but do search. and you'll find lots of threads discussing biwiring.

    enjoy
    PolkFest 2012, who's going>?
    Vancouver, Canada Sept 30th, 2012 - Madonna concert :cheesygrin:
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  • Mike Fu
    Mike Fu Posts: 7
    edited December 2004
    Thanks a lot. I will do a search on the forum.

    Mike
    Mike
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  • AsSiMiLaTeD
    AsSiMiLaTeD Posts: 11,728
    edited December 2004
    if you're talking A and B outputs, you're probably talking about bi-amping instead of bi-wiring.

    Bi-amping typically provides a more noticeable difference than just bi-wiring.

    With bi-wiring, you're just running separate wires to the high and low poasts, but from the same output on the receiver...this is usually hit or miss with only a handfull of people noticing a difference here...I've never tried it...

    With bi-amping, you're actually using one amp output to drive the highs, and another to drive the lows...what you'd essentially be doing by hooking up both the A and B speakers...Most people notice an improvement here because you're actually giving the speaker more power...though most people, myself included, actually do with with two different amps (maybe running the highs with your receiver and the lows with a separate amp)...

    Anyway, the most likely scenario is that running both the A and B outputs will not result in getting twice the power, your receiver will probably take the power allotted for the front left and right channels and split it between the A and B outputs, meaning you're still running the same amount of power to your speakers. I don't know any of this for sure becuase I don't know which model you have, just some thoughts...
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  • Mike Fu
    Mike Fu Posts: 7
    edited December 2004
    Thanks, Polkmaniac. I read quite a few postings on bi-wiring and bi-am, and your reply is very helpful. My receiver is Yamaha RX-V2500, with 130 W per channel. If I connect A and B speaker posts (this is how the receiver manual explains as bi-wiring) separately to my speakers, I don't know that's bi-wiring or bi-amplifying. But I guess the most likely scenario is, as you hinted, the receiver splits powers from A and B. That will be bi-wiring, I assume, since power comes from the same amplifier.

    I have emailed Yamaha for an explanation on this, and I will report back when I hear from them.
    Mike
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  • gregit
    gregit Posts: 284
    edited December 2004
    A + B = biwiring
    Greg

    My System
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  • PolkThug
    PolkThug Posts: 7,532
    edited December 2004
    Yeah, if the wires are coming from the same output terminals on the back of the AVR, you are basically just doubling your wire size.

    Dual terminals on the backs of speakers are meant for using multiple amps on the same speaker.

    However, I must note that my wife could notice a difference in sound between a speaker that was bi-wired to the same output terminals. That test was with 16gauge wire. This test wasn't very scientific, but she didn't know what I had done to the speakers. I asked her if she heard a difference between the left and right and she said something like "You know on a car radio you can turn the treble up, that's what the right speaker sounds like." The right speaker was the one I bi-wired.

    Since then, I have just reverted to single 12awg.
    Never Forget
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  • beardog03
    beardog03 Posts: 5,550
    edited December 2004
    If you bi-amp, do you have to use the same (brand & output wattage) on top and bottom posts ?

    All speaker wire should be the same length...correct ?
    Cary SLP-98L F1 DC Pre Amp (Jag Blue)
    Parasound HCA-3500
    Cary Audio V12 amp (Jag Red)
    Polk Audio Xm Reciever (Autographed by THE MAN Himself) :cool:
    Magnum Dynalab MD-102 Analog Tuna
    Jolida JD-100 CDP
    Polk Audio LSi9 Speaks (ebony)
    SVS PC-Ultra Sub
    AQ Bedrock Speaker Cables (Bi-Wired)
    MIT Shotgun S1 I/C`s
    AQ Black Thunder Sub Cables
    PS Audio Plus Power Cords
    Magnum Dynalab ST-2 FM Antenna
    Sanus Cherry wood Speak Stands
    Adona AV45CS3 / 3 Tier Rack (Black /Gold)

    :cool:
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  • PolkThug
    PolkThug Posts: 7,532
    edited December 2004
    no.


    yes.
    Never Forget
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  • beardog03
    beardog03 Posts: 5,550
    edited December 2004
    COOL..

    Thanks Thug...
    Cary SLP-98L F1 DC Pre Amp (Jag Blue)
    Parasound HCA-3500
    Cary Audio V12 amp (Jag Red)
    Polk Audio Xm Reciever (Autographed by THE MAN Himself) :cool:
    Magnum Dynalab MD-102 Analog Tuna
    Jolida JD-100 CDP
    Polk Audio LSi9 Speaks (ebony)
    SVS PC-Ultra Sub
    AQ Bedrock Speaker Cables (Bi-Wired)
    MIT Shotgun S1 I/C`s
    AQ Black Thunder Sub Cables
    PS Audio Plus Power Cords
    Magnum Dynalab ST-2 FM Antenna
    Sanus Cherry wood Speak Stands
    Adona AV45CS3 / 3 Tier Rack (Black /Gold)

    :cool:
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,647
    edited December 2004
    You do need to be sure both amps have the same gain, so it's usually easier to have both amps the same.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • beardog03
    beardog03 Posts: 5,550
    edited December 2004
    I think I`m starting to get all over the board with my choices..

    Maybe I should concentrate on the M60`s...

    I would like to bi-amp my RT2000I`s to see how much of a difference it makes.
    Cary SLP-98L F1 DC Pre Amp (Jag Blue)
    Parasound HCA-3500
    Cary Audio V12 amp (Jag Red)
    Polk Audio Xm Reciever (Autographed by THE MAN Himself) :cool:
    Magnum Dynalab MD-102 Analog Tuna
    Jolida JD-100 CDP
    Polk Audio LSi9 Speaks (ebony)
    SVS PC-Ultra Sub
    AQ Bedrock Speaker Cables (Bi-Wired)
    MIT Shotgun S1 I/C`s
    AQ Black Thunder Sub Cables
    PS Audio Plus Power Cords
    Magnum Dynalab ST-2 FM Antenna
    Sanus Cherry wood Speak Stands
    Adona AV45CS3 / 3 Tier Rack (Black /Gold)

    :cool:
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,647
    edited December 2004
    It's just my opinion, but with a pair of M60's I think you'll have all the power you need. You may find yourself looking at other speakers, however. :D
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • beardog03
    beardog03 Posts: 5,550
    edited December 2004
    I was afraid of that !!
    Cary SLP-98L F1 DC Pre Amp (Jag Blue)
    Parasound HCA-3500
    Cary Audio V12 amp (Jag Red)
    Polk Audio Xm Reciever (Autographed by THE MAN Himself) :cool:
    Magnum Dynalab MD-102 Analog Tuna
    Jolida JD-100 CDP
    Polk Audio LSi9 Speaks (ebony)
    SVS PC-Ultra Sub
    AQ Bedrock Speaker Cables (Bi-Wired)
    MIT Shotgun S1 I/C`s
    AQ Black Thunder Sub Cables
    PS Audio Plus Power Cords
    Magnum Dynalab ST-2 FM Antenna
    Sanus Cherry wood Speak Stands
    Adona AV45CS3 / 3 Tier Rack (Black /Gold)

    :cool:
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  • AsSiMiLaTeD
    AsSiMiLaTeD Posts: 11,728
    edited December 2004
    Okay, so if your receiver is splitting the power between the A and B sets of outputs, here's why you should NOT bi-wire or bi-amp using that configuration.

    Okay, first off, if you're using A and B terminals, you're not bi-wiring (unless Yamaha has some janky way of designing their output stage). Bi-wiring would be running two sets of wires from the same output, so running two sets of wires from the speaker A outputs to each speaker.

    So what we're talking about here is most likely bi-amping...so here's why you shouldn't do it if your receiver is splitting the power between A and B...

    Let's say your receiver is 100 WPC. When you run a single set of wires to each speakers and, you're sending the entire signal to the speaker and letting the speaker tell your receiver where it needs the power. Typically, the drivers producing the lower frequencies will require more power, becuase they have more of a load on them and are physically moving more than your tweeters (audio 101, it takes more power to move a speaker more). So, when you're watching a movie, your tweeters may be drawing 25 watts of power while the lows are drawing 75 watts (this isn't necessarily an accurate ratio, but we're making a point here.

    So, let's say you go with option 2, and use both A and B terminals, with your receiver splitting the 100 watts between the two sets of terminals, then you run a set of wires from each terminal to your speakers. So now, you effectively have 50 watts on the upper post driving the tweeters and 50 watts down low driving the lows...

    See the problem here? The tweeters have 50 watts but they only need 25, and the lows have 50, but they really need 75...so you're basically losing 50 watts of output in the process.

    This is actually a simplified explanation, and no way those figures are accurate, but the basic idea is accurate and is a tangable product of setting it up either way.

    Hope this helps...
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  • beardog03
    beardog03 Posts: 5,550
    edited December 2004
    I learn something new everyday...!

    So basically if I don`t get the M60`s , I`ll be in the market for an amp that is the same as one of the ones I already have.

    But I am definately workin` on the M60`s...
    They make me drool.....:p
    Cary SLP-98L F1 DC Pre Amp (Jag Blue)
    Parasound HCA-3500
    Cary Audio V12 amp (Jag Red)
    Polk Audio Xm Reciever (Autographed by THE MAN Himself) :cool:
    Magnum Dynalab MD-102 Analog Tuna
    Jolida JD-100 CDP
    Polk Audio LSi9 Speaks (ebony)
    SVS PC-Ultra Sub
    AQ Bedrock Speaker Cables (Bi-Wired)
    MIT Shotgun S1 I/C`s
    AQ Black Thunder Sub Cables
    PS Audio Plus Power Cords
    Magnum Dynalab ST-2 FM Antenna
    Sanus Cherry wood Speak Stands
    Adona AV45CS3 / 3 Tier Rack (Black /Gold)

    :cool:
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,647
    edited December 2004
    They'd make any redblooded audiophool drool, except BS1 of course, as he has no effing clue.

    A+B= ghetto bi-wiring
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • beardog03
    beardog03 Posts: 5,550
    edited December 2004
    I made an offer..
    Let see if he takes it....

    I also found a couple more amps that will match what I already have ...so I can bi-amp my RT2000I`s..

    Just in case..!
    Cary SLP-98L F1 DC Pre Amp (Jag Blue)
    Parasound HCA-3500
    Cary Audio V12 amp (Jag Red)
    Polk Audio Xm Reciever (Autographed by THE MAN Himself) :cool:
    Magnum Dynalab MD-102 Analog Tuna
    Jolida JD-100 CDP
    Polk Audio LSi9 Speaks (ebony)
    SVS PC-Ultra Sub
    AQ Bedrock Speaker Cables (Bi-Wired)
    MIT Shotgun S1 I/C`s
    AQ Black Thunder Sub Cables
    PS Audio Plus Power Cords
    Magnum Dynalab ST-2 FM Antenna
    Sanus Cherry wood Speak Stands
    Adona AV45CS3 / 3 Tier Rack (Black /Gold)

    :cool:
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  • bigsexy1
    bigsexy1 Posts: 557
    edited December 2004
    Originally posted by F1nut
    They'd make any redblooded audiophool drool, except BS1 of course, as he has no effing clue.

    A+B= ghetto bi-wiring

    This coming from an **** clown who thinks that a speaker with seperate outboard amps and crossovers is a "powered tower".

    I thought you said you were through on the other thread, but instead I see you just try to ruin this one too. Like I said on the other one, you're a little lap dog who yaps every time whether his chain is pulled or not.
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,647
    edited December 2004
    Got ya sucker!

    It's like this you putz! You hide your ID when on the forum, you have your email and PM turned off and list no location. Hmmmm......what are you hiding from or what are you afraid of? You obviously don't want to "belong" here. Your passive/aggressive attitude is old hat and you don't know what you're talking about. So, why are you here?

    How about you show us your powered towers and the gear that drives them because right now I believe you're full of BS.

    BTW, since you haven't realized it yet, you did get shot down in flames on the other thread and not just from me.

    Have a nice day! :D
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • bigsexy1
    bigsexy1 Posts: 557
    edited December 2004
    Originally posted by F1nut
    Got ya sucker!

    It's like this you putz! You hide your ID when on the forum, you have your email and PM turned off and list no location. Hmmmm......what are you hiding from or what are you afraid of? You obviously don't want to "belong" here. Your passive/aggressive attitude is old hat and you don't know what you're talking about. So, why are you here?

    How about you show us your powered towers and the gear that drives them because right now I believe you're full of BS.

    BTW, since you haven't realized it yet, you did get shot down in flames on the other thread and not just from me.

    Have a nice day! :D

    Arf Arf Yap Yap Are you going to bark all day little doggie, or are you ever gonna bite?

    Dude, you are so pathetic that this is too easy. First you accused me of being confrontational after you started in on me first, and now, you are calling me passive aggresive when you are the one who started it up on this thread too?:rolleyes:

    And now to top it all off, you think you are actually winning this? You have been thouroghly rebuked every time and are too stupid to even realize it. I had already realized that it is pointless to try to debate you on facts several days ago, but it's at the point now I don't even have to say anything else anyway because you doing quite nicely prooving my points on your own, and this is just another clear cut example.

    Edit: The reason I don't reveal my e-mail, location, etc. is to try to protect against sickos here (such as the type who openly talk of pissing on another guy's ****) who are also potential stalkers that try to get exactly the same info you did. But, since you now couldn't take it anymore and now have me on ignore I guess yopu'll never know that now.:rolleyes:
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  • AsSiMiLaTeD
    AsSiMiLaTeD Posts: 11,728
    edited December 2004
    Originally posted by bigsexy1
    And now to top it all off, you think you are actually winning this? You have been thouroghly rebuked every time and are too stupid to even realize it. I had already realized that it is pointless to try to debate you on facts several days ago, but it's at the point now I don't even have to say anything else anyway because you doing quite nicely prooving my points on your own, and this is just another clear cut example.
    Those who don't get it, don't know that they don't get it...
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,647
    edited December 2004
    bigsexy1
    12-29-2004 05:01 PM This person is on your Ignore List.


    Have a nice day, PUTZ!!! :D
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • TroyD
    TroyD Posts: 13,077
    edited January 2005
    Originally posted by beardog03
    I made an offer..
    Let see if he takes it....

    I also found a couple more amps that will match what I already have ...so I can bi-amp my RT2000I`s..

    Just in case..!

    RT2000's??

    Powered towers??

    Can't biamp 'em, dude. Can't biwire 'em........Monoblock 'em? sure.

    Sorry, I missed this post earlier.

    BS1, what a toad.

    BDT
    I plan for the future. - F1Nut
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  • bigsexy1
    bigsexy1 Posts: 557
    edited January 2005
    Originally posted by TroyD
    RT2000's??

    Powered towers??

    Can't biamp 'em, dude. Can't biwire 'em........Monoblock 'em? sure.

    Sorry, I missed this post earlier.

    BS1, what a toad.

    BDT

    At least I didn't get schooled by Sid! That was priceless! No further comment is required beyond that.
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  • AsSiMiLaTeD
    AsSiMiLaTeD Posts: 11,728
    edited January 2005
    I really didn't think it was all that funny or a big deal. Troy missed on of Sid's posts and repeated what Sid said, Sid said something to Troy about it, Troy manned up and apologized...end of story...
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  • TroyD
    TroyD Posts: 13,077
    edited January 2005
    Originally posted by bigsexy1
    At least I didn't get schooled by Sid! That was priceless! No further comment is required beyond that.

    If I make an honest mistake, as I am prone to do, I have no issues apologizing and so forth.

    Geeze, man, you are pathetic.

    BDT
    I plan for the future. - F1Nut
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  • mantis
    mantis Posts: 17,200
    edited January 2005
    Is this how things are around here??? Constant fighting.

    Everyone shut the F up punks. Go scratch yourself and get over all this bull crap.

    If ou can't talk about audioand video , go start a new chat room for bull crap. You would have more fun in there ...... if thats what this is.

    Sad
    Dan
    My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,647
    edited January 2005
    Having a bad day Dan???
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • mantis
    mantis Posts: 17,200
    edited January 2005
    No F1 but its always the same of the same around here.
    Dan
    My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,647
    edited January 2005
    Kinda gives me a warm fuzzy feeling! :D
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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