Hopefully, my next car.

jcaut

Yes. Annoying. Mild oversteer is fun, IF you are anticipating it AND can drive... But a street suspension that defaults to understeer is way safer, and therefore the way that most of them are designed.

audiobliss

man, I just don't think I can wait long enough to do this car.......lol

I'm just all wound up......:D :cool:

Sami

Originally posted by jcaut
Yes. Annoying. Mild oversteer is fun, IF you are anticipating it AND can drive... But a street suspension that defaults to understeer is way safer, and therefore the way that most of them are designed.

That's also why FWD is the safest vehicle to drive for the average driver, especially in slippery conditions. Nothing is worse than a light RWD car that easily oversteers (say BMW 316 for example) and a teenage driver in snow/ice. That's asking for trouble.

audiobliss

no, no, no....as a teenager, I say that that's askin' for a whoppin' lot of fun.....:D

Sami

Originally posted by audiobliss
no, no, no....as a teenager, I say that that's askin' for a whoppin' lot of fun.....:D

And where does the teenager most likely end up in his/her quest for fun? In trouble of course.

I have pulled my share of 3-series BMW's from snowbanks. I was a teenager back then myself and "drifting" a RWD car was one of the fun things to do. And if it was a FWD car then you used handbrake...

But we only did it in low speeds. High speeds, icy roads and light RWD car was a dangerous combination even with stud tires.

audiobliss

hahaha...use the handbrake....lol

well, I have a light, rwd car ('95 Jeep) that I just got this summer; this'll be the first snow I've had it....wait, it'll also be the first snow I've ever even driven in!!:eek: ......:D .......we'll see........if, after the snow comes, I stop postin'.....you'll know what happened to me.....lol

audiobliss

lemme add, though, it does have 4wd....for gettin' out o' them nasty ditches......:D

Sami

Originally posted by audiobliss
hahaha...use the handbrake....lol

Most of the cars we drove were FWD's so we became quite used to sliding or turning the car with handbrake. If you ever watch WRC you can see that the guys use handbrake on their AWD cars when needing a fast turn on TARMAC. It's a very useful device while driving, just don't pull it when you friend is driving...

we

Originally posted by audiobliss
l, I have a light, rwd car ('95 Jeep) that I just got this summer; this'll be the first snow I've had it....wait, it'll also be the first snow I've ever even driven in!!:eek: ......:D .......we'll see........if, after the snow comes, I stop postin'.....you'll know what happened to me.....lol

I haven't driven many Jeeps but the ones I have were tailhappy. Seriously, be careful, it's something you could very easily end up losing your life. If you get a chance, you should practice on an empty enclosed area. If not, take it easy with the speed and go slower than you normally drive. Even below the posted speedlimit, I know it would be a hard thing to do for a teenager but there is nothing wrong with that. We don't want you to stop posting.

audiobliss

originally posted by sami
just don't pull it when you friend is driving...

hahaha.....that's good......

originally posted by sami
Seriously, be careful, it's something you could very easily end up losing your life. If you get a chance, you should practice on an empty enclosed area. If not, take it easy with the speed and go slower than you normally drive. Even below the posted speedlimit, I know it would be a hard thing to do for a teenager but there is nothing wrong with that. We don't want you to stop posting.

Well, thanks...lol. I've done a few nasties on gravel, off the road....but, seriously, I really doubt I'll try anything on the road/ice. Like you say, very risky, and serious consequences. I'm sure I won't try it for a while.....would be fun, though...

I just talk big.....:D

PolkThug

Originally posted by audiobliss
PolkThug, congratulaions!! That sounds great. Are they going to be modding a '05 Mustang? Wonder what they'll do to it....

Yeah, an '05. What they will do is limited only by my pocket book. I'm eagerly waiting for their final numbers on their supercharger options. Cosmetically, I'll get the cowl hood and front splitter. Also adding strut tower bracing, etc.

Sami

Originally posted by audiobliss
Well, thanks...lol. I've done a few nasties on gravel, off the road....but, seriously, I really doubt I'll try anything on the road/ice. Like you say, very risky, and serious consequences. I'm sure I won't try it for a while.....would be fun, though...

If you are going to be driving on snow every winter, you really should find a place that either gives winter driving courses or has an area where you could practice. Even if you don't plan to do any of the stunts we pulled back in the day, the skills most likely will come handy. If you know how the car behaves after losing traction in the rear you will also know how to correct it. Back home #1 killer on young driver winter time was, and still is, losing control of your car while passing another vehicle. FWD or RWD, happens with both but more with RWD. AWD is the safest but once you lose control of one it is much more serious than with either FWD or RWD.

Originally posted by audiobliss
I just talk big.....:D

Don't we all...

audiobliss

hey, that's an idea.....driving lessons.....that'd be cool....doesn't ROUSH have a school?....oh, you meant for winter driving......well, that wouldn't be bad, either....:p

Jstas

Originally posted by Sami
How am I confusing him? You don't agree that putting a heavy engine on a light car isn't an easy task? I know it isn't a simple equation as a lot of things that play a part in it but throwing off the balance of the car is NOT a good way to start.

Simply choosing an engine that produces the most power and fits inside the engine bay?

p.s. I drive a noseheavy AWD car that has a slight tendency to oversteers, I need to get more track time to decide whether to keep it that way or fix it. If it was RWD then I would definately fix it.

Well, first off, your "typo" seems to have confused a few people. As far as putting a heavy engine in a light car being an easy task, no, it isn't. Putting any engine in any car is not an easy task. You're confusing him by giving him simplistic advice and leaving out a great deal of info when talking to him about a project that is not for novices, i.e.: building a Factory Five roadster.

Take a look at any car out there and really look at how many are unblanaced. Hell, one of the most raved about cars for handling, the Integra Type R is nose heavy yet it seems to compete without a problem with the BMWs which tend to be butt heavy in racing trim. Wanna talk about upsetting balance? Give Porsche a call. They wrote the book. No matter what car you choose, unless it is being built from scratch as a purpose built vehicle, it's going to be "unblanaced". The simple reason is that road going cars that are readily available to the general public and affordable also need to be practical. A mid-engined sports car with 2 seats and no trunk is far from practical. However, people modify and race them anyway and usually, pretty successfully. Sure, some cars are better than others but that doesn't mean the lesser cars can't be competative.

FWD sucks for performance driving, period. Bad weight transfer in any respect and turn in suffers due to not only unsprung drivetrain weight but also geometry needed to allow for the drive mechanisms. RWD and AWD drive tend to be heavier than the lighter FWD but they put power down better than the FWD. Nobody has built the perfect car yet. They probably won't either because of one simple factor, humans. Everything is a compromise and telling someone that one way is the best or better than the others is mis-leading. You can do alot with any kind of configuration. You just have to understand how it all works.

And to feed your pissing contest, I drive a nose heavy RWD vehicle that has understeer AND oversteer depending on how far I have the go pedal pushed. It also has the engine that makes the most power and is a big hulking lump of American V8 iron. Makes well over 500 pound feet of torque and about 435 horses. It's completely unbalanced but it'll blow the doors off of alot of stuff rolling down the roads today. Oh yeah, it's also loaded with 2.0 liters of forced induction from a roots style blower strapped to the top of the engine.

Sami

Originally posted by Jstas
You're confusing him by giving him simplistic advice

Hmmm, and I should be going into details? How is saying that you should look into the total picture of how the engine is going to fit into the car rather than looking at the horsepower confusing? I think you totally missed my point.

Originally posted by Jstas
And to feed your pissing contest

How is any of this a pissing contest? I think you're the one wanting to engage in one. I certainly don't.

audiobliss

Hey, hey, hold on here, now. We can't start braggin' about our rides until I do this project!!

Am I confused? Well, not really. I understand that balance has everything to do with handling and that the placement/weight of the engine has a lot to do with balance. Of course, that's all I know about it lol. I assume from FFR's recommending this particular engine that it won't upset the balance.

As I'm 17 and don't imagine I'll do anything like this until I'm ~30, I have some time to get into the details, lol.

What are some good places y'all would recommend I look for some good information on all this. I'm most familiar with the engine, though I realize there's a LOT I don't understand about it yet. Talk about suspension, balance, aerodynamics, gearing, (what else is there?) and I'm lost.

Thanks!

Jstas

Now you are taking things to an extreme. Details are not necessary but telling the poor kid that what he wants is all wrong. If he wants to get a Factory Five roadster and dump in a 427 side oiler then let him. If he wants to drop in a 2300 series 4 cylinder than let him. Telling him that choosing the big engine will ruin the weight balance is not helping him any. He obviously wants the big engine if so I say more power to him. The whole idea behind Shelby's Cobra was a big honkin' engine stuffed into the smallest and lightest chassis he could get a deal on. Hence the AC Cobra. If shoving that big hunk of iron into the nose of that 2200 pound car destroyed the weight balance then somebody better go tell Ferrari that the 60's were nothing more than a bad dream.


As far as this goes...

"How is any of this a pissing contest? I think you're the one wanting to engage in one. Certainly, I don't."

Why did you even bring up what kind of car you drive then? I cannot see any other reason for even mentioning this besides a pissing contest. The kind of car one drives has no bearing on thier understanding of how a vehicle operates. It just shows that you had the cash to plunk down on a fancy car. I know guys with Vipers, Corvettes and Ferraris that know zilch about thier cars except where they sit, where the controls are and how to start the damn thing.

Quit the bench racing dude and settle down. If you want to talk cars with the kid and teach him something then do so. Don't present an idea and then give no solid information to back it up. I'm not on a witch hunt for you, I'm just trying to protect the kid's interests. I've seen so many kids doing stupid things with thier vehicles because they listened to biased and/or partially educated hype. Let the kid do what he wants and learn something. If he has a question about a big honkin' engine in a roadster, answer his question. No one has the right to try and dissuade him from his desired goal because of what they percieve is better.

Lighten up and lay off the kid. Answer his questions thoughtfully and throughly.

One last thing. If you know anything about an AC style Cobra, you'd already know that the engine resides, even a V8 mind you, almost entirely behind the front axle. It's pretty much mid-engined with a fairly good weight balance both front to rear and side to side. Without an engine, it's roughly 46/54 front/rear. Add a large, heavy engine and you're sitting right around an ideal 50/50 weight blance with an edge toward a rear weight bias. So do you still think that putting the biggest,. baddest engine in the car is going to totally unsettle it? I gave you a chance to find specs and thought you would have done some reaserch on the vehicle yourself. If you did, you would have seen that the whole string of posts in the thread is a moot point anyway.

Jstas

Originally posted by audiobliss
Talk about suspension, balance, aerodynamics, gearing, (what else is there?) and I'm lost.

Thanks!

Go find a site with a forum full of road racers like SCCA or NASA road racing forums. Talk to those guys, they will learn you something good concerning suspension and balance. Gearing is simple math and you can find all the info you need online. Just start searching for all the info you can on gearing calculations and learn how to use them. Once you do that, you can figure it all out for yourself. Don't bother yourself with aerodynamics. There isn't much you can do to help them and they are pretty much well out of your average hobbist's league.

As far as where and how to gleam info, go to events like an SCCA Solo II race or head down to the dragstrip, find a guy with a car with a similar engine and find out what he he did. Talk to people and listen to the old guys. Listen to all of them at first. As you pick up more knowledge and it starts to make sense to you, you'll learn what you should be listening to and what is total bunk. It only comes with experience though and the best way to get that is to get our hands dirty and hang around what you want to learn. So get out to the race tracks and get into the automotive forums online. You'll learn something and maybe pick up a few friends to help you wrench when it comes time to do so.

PolkThug

Originally posted by audiobliss
(what else is there?)

The Battery!! If a 35lb battery is in the front left of the car. Move it to the rear right (trunk) of the car, and the effect is it gives you about 60lbs more on the right rear tire (which is good).

Regards,
PolkThug

Sami

Originally posted by Jstas

Why did you even bring up what kind of car you drive then?

Just to point out that I know it isn't as simple as you think I am thinking it is. If you choose to see it as pissing contest be my guest. The whole point of not destroying the balance of the car is that it is much easier...nevermind, I've said it already.

Jstas

Originally posted by Sami
Just to point out that I know it isn't as simple as you think I am thinking it is. If you choose to see it as pissing contest be my guest. The whole point of not destroying the balance of the car is that it is much easier...nevermind, I've said it already.

Wait a minute, didn't you BUY your car that way?

audiobliss

First off, I don't care who owns what or which one'll go faster or spent more money on it, or how much they did to it, or how much sweat & blood & tears on it, or who had a lowlier beginning......at least in regards to who I'll listen to. Now, of course I'd love to hear what you drive, what it's got under the hood, what'll you've done to it....just for curiosity's and learning's sake.

Jstas
If no one can say, "Hey, this is my perception, I think it's better, you might oughta look into it," then there'd be no learning! He's not stuffing anything down my throat and sayin' it won't work; he's just telling me to watch out for the balance so that I don't ruin a car. Now, maybe he wasn't familiar with the Cobra or it's weight balance, but he was still helping me; I could do something to more than one car, ya know.

What kind of a car do you have? To have such power under the hood, I just assume it's a muscle car of some type. Is it naturally aspirated or does it have forced induction? Sounds interesting enough.

PolkThug
haha, I had never thought about that. I guess it makes sense, though; -35 up front + 35 out back = lot o' weight out back. That's pretty cool....

audiobliss

Hey, PolkThug, let us know what's goin' on with you new Mustang! Hope it turns out great.

sowen010599

Crap guys. See, leave you to yourselves and see what happens.

Nose heavy, tail heavy, that makes no difference in under/oversteer at all. Jstas is right, it is ALL about the suspension setup.

Now, there is something to be said about balance, weight bias, whatever you want to call it. BUT, there is A LOT more to it than that. Here's something to smoke on, about 3 years ago, MM&FF did an article on aftermarket suspension. They took a bone stock LX 5.0, hung a stage III suspension package on it with matching wheels and tires and chimed in with a world record. That car posted the highest ever G on a skid-pad for a street legal car, ever, period, the end. 1.9 G. Good bye Ferrari, Porsche, Lamborghini, c-ya. Now, the bad part. In the straights, the car was nearly uncontrollable. The point is, it's all about balance. Not weight balance, but overall balance. You have to give a little to get a little. There is no free lunch. A 50/50 bias means chit. It just means the cars gonna wash out out of the corner in a straight line rather than tail/nose first.

As for a heavy motor ruining the car, first off, the FE "big-block" is only about 200 lbs. heavier than a SB. Convert that beast to aluminum heads and the difference between it and the iron headed 302 is 75-100 lbs. So it won't make THAT much of a difference.

Secondly, you have GOT to remember, that car is a kit car. It runs the drive line and suspension from a 79-93 Mustang. It's made to carry a lot more weight than it will with the cobra chassis. But even so, the Mustang carries a 75% nose heavy weight bias anyway. With a car as light as that kit car is, you'll NEVER get 50/50 with the motor in the nose, EVER, I don't care what the F motor you put in. It can be f-n unobtanium, it don't f-n matter. It's still in the nose of a tiny **** fiberglass car, so F it!

Beyond that, it depends ENTIRELY on what the purpose of the car is. For dragn' or running around town, it makes NO difference WHAT motor it runs. Good grief, 200 lbs. on the nose won't wreck the car.

It all comes down to BUDGET. A BB can be had at a salvage yard for a couple hundred bones. So can a 302HO, or 351W. Rebuild it and stuff it in!

If you've got more money than sense, you get a Fontana aluminum small block, and have **** & Co. build it into a 427. Inject it, boost it, 1000hp. Done.

Now what would be COOL would be a motor from a current Cobra! DOHC and supercharged, aluminum everything. It would be really sweet with the whole old/new thing going on.

audiobliss

whoa........1.9g?!?!?! FOR REAL?! I didn't know anything could do that.......amazing.....

If/when I do this thing, I'm pretty sure I won't be doin' the donor thing; I want nicer stuff that what's in an old rustang...

What's it purpose? Well, I don't guess I can real accurately say right now, but probably mostly daily driver/show car, with a lot of drag racin' at the light, hopefully some drag racin' at a strip, and maybe even a bit of track duty; can't really say yet.

It all comes down to BUDGET. A BB can be had at a salvage yard for a couple hundred bones. So can a 302HO, or 351W. Rebuild it and stuff it in!

What does 'BB' mean?

Thanks.

sowen010599

BB = Big Block V8 332-460, physically a BIG motor

SB = Small Block V8 221-351, physically a much smaller engine

Jstas

Originally posted by audiobliss
I want nicer stuff that what's in an old rustang...

How can you say that when you have shown that you have a severe lack of knowledge in your head about this stuff? What stodgy old automotive bigot put it in your head that Mustangs suck? Carroll Shelby doesn't seem to think so. Neither does Jack Roush.

audiobliss

severe lack of knowledge

whoa.....that's pretty harsh.......




I never said that Mustangs 'suck'. I merely said that I want something nicer and more substantial on my Cobra. Mustangs are pretty cool cars, I'll give ya that, but if you look at my other posts in this thread.....I'm not much of a Ford fan. Besides that, I read Motor Trend and Car & Driver and their articles about how the previous style Mustang was getting quite 'long in the tooth'; way overdue for a cosmetic and performance 'face-lift', if you will. I imagine that if I get the 3-link or IRS rear-suspension that FFR offers, some aftermarket discs from BAER or some-such, obviously a better engine, a Tremec 5 or 6-speed transmission, and probably a slightly nicer part similar to whatever I'd need from the Mustang, I'll come out with a lot nicer ride than if I had just dumped the 'Stang's guts into the kit. Besides, I don't have a Mustang to swap guts with.

audiobliss

Besides, I imagine that if I buy this kit, I won't have a whole lot left-over to buy a Mustang, so I wouldn't be getting really good, taken care-of parts in what I could afford. Though, going with new, better parts I reckon would be more than an old Mustang.......idk

jdhdiggs

Originally posted by audiobliss
whoa........1.9g?!?!?! FOR REAL?! I didn't know anything could do that.......amazing.....

You need to check F1 and CART classes. At Texas Motor Speedway, they had to cancel an event because the cars were so fast that drivers were starting to grey out (around 4G's or so) That's crazy!

As for driving schools, there are tons locally and cost less than the big name schools and for most drivers, you won't notice that much of a difference except in your pocket book.

I used to be an instructor at this one: MasterDrive

Look for these schools, they are relitively inexensive and then go spend the money you saved over Rousch, etc.. on track time.

As for weight balance, depends on the drivers style and suspension setup. You can make damn near any car understeer or oversteer depending on what you do. Hell, I've spun out (Without flooring the gas) an S200 going a whopping 20MPH just because another instructor didn't think you that it was possible. Match driver style with car setup and you'll be much happier...

Now, what set-up best fits you? That's another problem on its own...

audiobliss

eh,....and I bet that could be pretty difficult to find out......at least at 17.......

I'll look into some schools, though; that would be pretty cool.