Should we calibrate our 2 ch Systems?

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Tour2ma
Tour2ma Posts: 10,177
edited October 2004 in 2 Channel Audio
While finishing a reply to michael's tone control question, this struck me as odd...

While "lowly" HT folk go through test disks of frequency sweeps using SPL meters to balance their system's responce to their room, 2 ch lovers just sit back secure in the knowledge that all is well with their dedicated 2 ch rig.

In part, it seems to me this is because 2 ch pre's do not have the capability to be adjusted, e.g., no notch filters, not even tone controls. I wonder what we would see if we ran a frequency sweep using our CDP's?

Has anyone done this?
More later,
Tour...
Vox Copuli
Better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. - Old English Proverb

"Death doesn't come with a Uhaul." - Dennis Gardner
"It's easy to get lost in price vs performance vs ego vs illusion." - doro
"There is a certain entertainment value in ripping the occaisonal (sic) buttmunch..." - TroyD
Post edited by Tour2ma on
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  • TroyD
    TroyD Posts: 13,077
    edited October 2004
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    Having Bruce around for a weekend accomplishes pretty much the same thing. ;)

    BDT
    I plan for the future. - F1Nut
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  • RuSsMaN
    RuSsMaN Posts: 17,987
    edited October 2004
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    Ronco that ****.
    Check your lips at the door woman. Shake your hips like battleships. Yeah, all the white girls trip when I sing at Sunday service.
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  • amulford
    amulford Posts: 5,020
    edited October 2004
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    Tweekmeister!!!
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  • dorokusai
    dorokusai Posts: 25,576
    edited October 2004
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    No.
    CTC BBQ Amplifier, Sonic Frontiers Line3 Pre-Amplifier and Wadia 581 SACD player. Speakers? Always changing but for now, Mission Argonauts I picked up for $50 bucks, mint.
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  • Tour2ma
    Tour2ma Posts: 10,177
    edited October 2004
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    ROFLMAO.... nearly collapsed a lung on that series...

    And I don't even understand what "Ronco that ****" means... thank God.

    On the bright side, I ejected some twenty-year-old flem... (tasted like chicken)

    That's it, I'm outta here...
    More later,
    Tour...
    Vox Copuli
    Better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. - Old English Proverb

    "Death doesn't come with a Uhaul." - Dennis Gardner
    "It's easy to get lost in price vs performance vs ego vs illusion." - doro
    "There is a certain entertainment value in ripping the occaisonal (sic) buttmunch..." - TroyD
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  • dorokusai
    dorokusai Posts: 25,576
    edited October 2004
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    Ronco = "Set it and forget it!!!"
    CTC BBQ Amplifier, Sonic Frontiers Line3 Pre-Amplifier and Wadia 581 SACD player. Speakers? Always changing but for now, Mission Argonauts I picked up for $50 bucks, mint.
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  • Tour2ma
    Tour2ma Posts: 10,177
    edited October 2004
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    Domo, dorosan... wykalimas..
    More later,
    Tour...
    Vox Copuli
    Better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. - Old English Proverb

    "Death doesn't come with a Uhaul." - Dennis Gardner
    "It's easy to get lost in price vs performance vs ego vs illusion." - doro
    "There is a certain entertainment value in ripping the occaisonal (sic) buttmunch..." - TroyD
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  • organ
    organ Posts: 4,969
    edited October 2004
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    LMAO:D. I HATE seeing that Ronco thing on TV LOL. "Set it and....Forget it!" aaaaah!.

    I hear you need to do some calculations if you're using the rat shack spl meters because it's not accurate through out all the frequency range. There's some math formulas around the net for this.

    Maurice
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  • amulford
    amulford Posts: 5,020
    edited October 2004
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    I play till I like it, then listen. Calibrate?? You mean adjust the balance???
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  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,051
    edited October 2004
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    I have run a few frequency sweeps of my system to get it the 'best' that I can get it in my small lil room

    You can see them on my website under projects, I dont wanna resize and everything so I can post it on the forum again
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
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  • steveinaz
    steveinaz Posts: 19,522
    edited October 2004
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    Why do you think I love 2-channel so much...what's calibrating?
    Source: Bluesound Node 2i - Preamp/DAC: Benchmark DAC2 DX - Amp: Parasound Halo A21 - Speakers: MartinLogan Motion 60XTi - Shop Rig: Yamaha A-S501 Integrated - Shop Spkrs: Elac Debut 2.0 B5.2
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  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,051
    edited October 2004
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    I think the thing about 2-Channel systems, most importantly would to have the speakers the same distance from you as close as possible, so the sound arrives at the same time...

    However, I just plug up my HT preamp and run test tones and move my speakers forwards and backwards till they are pppppperfect...
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
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  • madmax
    madmax Posts: 12,434
    edited October 2004
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    Originally posted by Tour2ma
    In part, it seems to me this is because 2 ch pre's do not have the capability to be adjusted, e.g., no notch filters, not even tone controls.

    No need for all that BS. If the room needs adjusted then the room is adjusted. Most 2 channel people are very hardcore. Why tweak a tone control when you can fix the problem where it is created, in the room.

    madmax
    Vinyl, the final frontier...

    Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want... :D
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  • jmierzur
    jmierzur Posts: 489
    edited October 2004
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    Originally posted by madmax
    No need for all that BS. If the room needs adjusted then the room is adjusted. Most 2 channel people are very hardcore. Why tweak a tone control when you can fix the problem where it is created, in the room.

    madmax

    Exactly. The first place to start corrections is in the room.
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  • Tour2ma
    Tour2ma Posts: 10,177
    edited October 2004
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    OK... But if you don't run a sweep, how do you even know if there is something to correct???
    More later,
    Tour...
    Vox Copuli
    Better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. - Old English Proverb

    "Death doesn't come with a Uhaul." - Dennis Gardner
    "It's easy to get lost in price vs performance vs ego vs illusion." - doro
    "There is a certain entertainment value in ripping the occaisonal (sic) buttmunch..." - TroyD
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  • madmax
    madmax Posts: 12,434
    edited October 2004
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    It's called hearing. Beyond that I use an AudioControl 30 band RTA as a second reference. Guess what, the SDA's are not flat and do not sound good if you make them flat. So how good is hearing? Depends on the person. Recently I met with F1Nut. Guess what. He can hear as well. As I walked in to his house he said he thought something was wrong with his system. He asked me if I wanted a heads up of what he thought was wrong or if I would rather listen and then tell him what I thought was wrong. Well, I listened, told him what I heard and he agreed that my explanation fit exactly to his. We proceeded to change to a different interconnect (went from one type of MIT cable to another) and were both as happy as could be.

    So, hear (here) we are, two people who have very little history with each other, listen to slightly different types of music, rooms are drasticly different in liveliness, I have tubes on the output stage and he has SS but yet we hear the same thing. I would call that evidence of knowing what sounds correct. Of course we were both listening to the system more so than the music. Music wise I have other friends who hear stuff totally different than I do. It's not about making the system sound "clean" or "authoritative in the bass" or "crisp" or "smooth" or any of that. It's all about making it sound "real". :)

    madmax
    Vinyl, the final frontier...

    Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want... :D
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  • Tour2ma
    Tour2ma Posts: 10,177
    edited October 2004
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    Sorry, missed this bit earlier...
    Originally posted by madmax
    Why tweak a tone control when you can fix the problem where it is created, in the room.
    madmax
    Because it's easier? Why not use tone control, if it is just a second means to the same end?

    You could search a looong time, and spend a s***load of money searching for an acoustic solution... Not to mention that many that are marketed deserve "snake-oil" classification...
    More later,
    Tour...
    Vox Copuli
    Better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. - Old English Proverb

    "Death doesn't come with a Uhaul." - Dennis Gardner
    "It's easy to get lost in price vs performance vs ego vs illusion." - doro
    "There is a certain entertainment value in ripping the occaisonal (sic) buttmunch..." - TroyD
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  • madmax
    madmax Posts: 12,434
    edited October 2004
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    Because you fix the symptom, not the problem. The symptom will re-occur under different conditions unless you fix it. What you end up with is the ability to "fix" your system for any given set of material but as soon as you listen to something different a whole new set of bad sounds will show up. Fixing the sound this way (with a band-aid... no pun intended) also causes the old "gee, it sounded great last time I listened but tonite it sounds like crap" syndrome.

    I don't believe in snake oil. As a matter of fact I'm afraid it will get on my turntable belt if I bring it in the house. I do believe my magic brick makes a difference but I won't go into it here. Most of the little tricks many refer to as "snake oil" actually make a difference if your system is up to reproduction at a very high resolution. The standard SS best bang for the buck amps are not equiped to pass this resolution of sound anyway so the equipment you use this oily stuff with is the limiting factor as to what works and what doesn't.

    madmax
    Vinyl, the final frontier...

    Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want... :D
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 49,805
    edited October 2004
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    Originally posted by madmax
    Most of the little tricks many refer to as "snake oil" actually make a difference if your system is up to reproduction at a very high resolution. The standard SS best bang for the buck amps are not equiped to pass this resolution of sound anyway so the equipment you use this oily stuff with is the limiting factor as to what works and what doesn't.

    And that folks is the God's honest truth!
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • Tour2ma
    Tour2ma Posts: 10,177
    edited October 2004
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    .
    More later,
    Tour...
    Vox Copuli
    Better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. - Old English Proverb

    "Death doesn't come with a Uhaul." - Dennis Gardner
    "It's easy to get lost in price vs performance vs ego vs illusion." - doro
    "There is a certain entertainment value in ripping the occaisonal (sic) buttmunch..." - TroyD
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  • shack
    shack Posts: 11,154
    edited October 2004
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    Originally posted by F1nut
    And that folks is the God's honest truth!
    I'm sure it is.

    Please Lord.....Don't let me get to that point. Let me be...........average.

    JK....sort of....

    After last weekend with the opportunity to listen to some FANTASTIC gear (speakers, amps, CDPs and excellent recordings) I returned home wondering how my system would sound to me. I was afraid that I would think my gear sounded like crap in comparison. You know what....It's not as good sounding. But last night after a few minutes of listening to one of my favorite CDs (on the lowly RT400s with no sub - The RT55is are still in the boxes) I quit hearing the descrepancies and really enjoyed myself.

    Am I still going to upgrade?....HELL YES! Mr. Dorokusai is seeing to that and I am looking forward to becoming a SDA freak like some of you.

    What's my point? I don't really know....just rambling I guess. I like good recordings (ie: SACD) and great gear (Amazings, Jolida, SDAs, Carver, Parasound, etc...) but I CAN get by on the "bang for the buck" stuff and be happy. F1, Madmax and others are the audiophiles that set the standard for the rest of us. If folks like them weren't pushing the envelope on sound quality, then my bang for the buck gear wouldn't be nearly as good as it is. I wouldn't know what was possible to obtain in sound quality. In terms that I'm sure Jesse will understand, if it wasn't for the Williams F1 team, then my new Honda Element wouldn't be nearly as good. The pusuit of excellence/perfection by some makes it better for us "average" guys. Keep looking for tweeks, snake oil, nirvana or whatever....It really is good for the hobby!
    "Just because you’re offended doesn’t mean you’re right." - Ricky Gervais

    "For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible." - Stuart Chase

    "Consistency requires you to be as ignorant today as you were a year ago." - Bernard Berenson
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  • Tour2ma
    Tour2ma Posts: 10,177
    edited October 2004
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    Originally posted by madmax
    I don't believe in snake oil. As a matter of fact I'm afraid it will get on my turntable belt if I bring it in the house.
    Now you're getting in the spirit of things... :D
    Originally posted by madmax
    Because you fix the symptom, not the problem. The symptom will re-occur under different conditions unless you fix it. What you end up with is the ability to "fix" your system for any given set of material but as soon as you listen to something different a whole new set of bad sounds will show up. Fixing the sound this way (with a band-aid... no pun intended) also causes the old "gee, it sounded great last time I listened but tonite it sounds like crap" syndrome.
    See what you are saying, but...
    Say you have a nice flat room response excepting a nasty bit of bass reinforcement (on the order of a 5 dB boost) at 55 Hz at your primary listening position and you have a notch filter that can trim this frequency by 5 dB. Are you saying that this would not be a permanent fix?

    I'll patiently await the "magic brick" tale... As for "snake oil", I agree, we all have different lists when it comes to what is and isn't... Kinda what we are discussing here...
    More later,
    Tour...
    Vox Copuli
    Better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. - Old English Proverb

    "Death doesn't come with a Uhaul." - Dennis Gardner
    "It's easy to get lost in price vs performance vs ego vs illusion." - doro
    "There is a certain entertainment value in ripping the occaisonal (sic) buttmunch..." - TroyD
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  • RuSsMaN
    RuSsMaN Posts: 17,987
    edited October 2004
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    Sounds like you need different speakers, or some room treatments.

    In the 2ch quest, I prefer to not jimmy it up with filters, boosters, a bunch of stuff in the loop getting in the way of good sound.

    Cheers,
    Russ
    Check your lips at the door woman. Shake your hips like battleships. Yeah, all the white girls trip when I sing at Sunday service.
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  • madmax
    madmax Posts: 12,434
    edited October 2004
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    Originally posted by Tour2ma
    Say you have a nice flat room response excepting a nasty bit of bass reinforcement (on the order of a 5 dB boost) at 55 Hz at your primary listening position and you have a notch filter that can trim this frequency by 5 dB. Are you saying that this would not be a permanent fix?


    If the slope and the gain of the notch filter matched the room mis-match exactly then yes, it is a permanent fix. Sorta. For the life of the installation you are mucking up everything associated with having that notch filter in line. Here again, if your equipment is such that you cannot hear the difference whether the filter is in place or not then it doesn't matter. If you can hear the filter in place then you would be better off to fix the problem acousticly. Keep in mind that so long as that filter is in place it may be limiting your experience as you upgrade various components and cables.

    BTW, if you search long enough you can find best bang for the buck stuff which when put together in a synergistic system will give you most of what the really high dollar equipment does. It takes a lot of time and patience though. (that is my route).

    madmax
    Vinyl, the final frontier...

    Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want... :D
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  • Tour2ma
    Tour2ma Posts: 10,177
    edited October 2004
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    Originally posted by madmax
    It takes a lot of ... patience though.
    madmax
    Time to stop testing yours... ;)
    More later,
    Tour...
    Vox Copuli
    Better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. - Old English Proverb

    "Death doesn't come with a Uhaul." - Dennis Gardner
    "It's easy to get lost in price vs performance vs ego vs illusion." - doro
    "There is a certain entertainment value in ripping the occaisonal (sic) buttmunch..." - TroyD
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  • TroyD
    TroyD Posts: 13,077
    edited October 2004
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    I see this both ways.....on the one hand the less in the signal path the better but on the other hand the room my have design issues that echo busters or what have you just won't solve.

    BDT
    I plan for the future. - F1Nut
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  • amulford
    amulford Posts: 5,020
    edited October 2004
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    Then you just need to build another room...:p
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  • TroyD
    TroyD Posts: 13,077
    edited October 2004
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    I am, next year.

    Gotta accomodate a larger crowd for the next Polkfest here in Charleston.

    BDT
    I plan for the future. - F1Nut
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  • gidrah
    gidrah Posts: 3,049
    edited October 2004
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    Why calibrate when upgrading is much mor fun?:D
    Make it Funky! :)
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  • Tour2ma
    Tour2ma Posts: 10,177
    edited October 2004
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    Originally posted by gidrah
    Why calibrate when upgrading is much mor fun?:D
    Best argumant yet...

    BDT,
    Gonna let us help design your add-on? Non-parallel walls, baby...

    Of course if you DIY, probably will end up that way naturally... ;)
    More later,
    Tour...
    Vox Copuli
    Better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. - Old English Proverb

    "Death doesn't come with a Uhaul." - Dennis Gardner
    "It's easy to get lost in price vs performance vs ego vs illusion." - doro
    "There is a certain entertainment value in ripping the occaisonal (sic) buttmunch..." - TroyD
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter