My sub "overloads"?

1sctrojan

Hello, i have the 7200's with the 8" sub hooked up just like polk recommends. The sub is "off" the front speakers are "large". When i listen to an intense movie like LOTR or Term 3 or any program with a lot of bass my receiver says "overload" and it shuts off. My crossover is 200 and the volume is low. I can't watch any movie for the most part. What did i do wrong? Also, i have a sub pre out on my receiver (Pioneer VSX-D814) can i use that instead?

[Deleted User]

Hello,
Thanks for posting on the Forum. I'll try and offer an opinion. I believe your receiver is reacting to the peak demands of the movie. During loud dynamic sections of the movie your receiver has to produce fairly high amounts of signal current (think of signal current as gallons per minute of water being pumped through a water pipe). The output transistors, in your receiver, are working to conduct these current peak demands. However, one of the byproducts of producing current is heat. As the receiver works to produce more current it also begins producing more heat. There is probably a device, in your receiver, that detects current flow or the temperature of the output devices. When the current flow (or the temperature, or both) reaches a certain level the "protection" LED comes on and the receiver goes into standby.
It sounds as though you have your speakers connected properly to give the most accurate frequency response. I believe you've just reached the limits of the receiver. Like any device it can only produce a certain amount of energy and some of today's wide dynamic range program material can easily require lots of power. I can remember a demonstration, given by Bob Carver, showing that to accurately reproduce the sound of a large pair of scissors, (using a closely placed microphone played back through moderate efficiency speakers), snapping together required more than 500 Watts. Imagine what some of the special effects, in movies, can require! You might want to consider another receiver manufacturer that produces "high current" output capability and better dynamic headroom (dynamic headroom is the ability of an amplifier to reproduce transient peaks without severe distortion) . I'm sure fellow Forum members will be happy to make recommendations?
I hope this is helpful information.
Regards, Ken

1sctrojan

Thank you for the reply but i'm scratching my head. Are you saying that a $365 Pioneer VSX-D814 is incapable of allowing me to watch certain movies because of too much intensity? I need some more feedback on this because i'm about to throw the remote thru the TV screen. This cannot be true. This receiver is on par with the Onkyo 502 and the HK130/230.

danger boy

Ken gave a very good and through description of what is probably going on with your receiver. I would instead run the sub from the sub pre out and see if that helps. any load that you can lighten from the receiver is a good thing. How old is your receiver? Maybe there is more going on than just heat or current overload.

But yeah.. Ken is right... most of todays current receivers are high current.. that's important since like Ken said.. movies put a huge demand on a receiver..

Ken.. i learned some things I didn't know about too. WTG!

Al

Mjr7531

I have a Pioneer VSX-D412, and I can sympathize, When I just had my MTX Monitor 10s, no sub, no surrounds, no center, I would listen to a Telarc's Grand Canyon Suite with real thunder recorded, and as the big grand finale thunder came as the last one was still rumbling (near subsonic) the attack of the new thunder would come and of a sudden, the whole thing would just shut off, the screen would say "Overload". My point is, I don't think the pioneer receivers have the capabilities to amplify all the bass DVDs have to offer. As for your reciever overloading at low volumes, I'm not too sure, I suppose there is enough LFE in those movies to through the reciever into overload. If you use the pre-amp out I'm sure the overloading problem would go away as the LFE is not burdening the reciever's amp. Hope this helps a little,
Matt

1sctrojan

To answer a couple of questions i don't use DVD's, i have Digital cable with a digital coaxial out for DD. My receiver is brand spanking new, the 814 is not an elite but almost the same as the 914 which is one step below the top of the line non elite series. I have the Polks which are hooked up with speaker wire (to the sub). I will try the conventional way. I still think this must be some kind of a sick joke. I know most of you audiophiles use $15,000 amps and $100,000 speakers, ( ok, i'm exaggerating, a little) but i still don't understand how someone with a new, and critically acclaimed receiver (in this price range) and a Polk sub/sat speaker system is being screwed big time. Where are all the other people with comparable setups like mine? They only watch the food network?

Frank Z

See my response in your other thread.

BTW, please don't double post the same question. You're going to confuse the hell of simpletons like me.;)

danger boy

well as stupid as this may sound... you may want to check all your speaker connections..

back in my day... when the pos and neg speaker wires were touching each other or something metal like the chassis.. it would send the receiver in shut down or protect mode.. so just for sh*ts and giggles.. check your speaker wires.

Also, maybe you did get a lemon receiver that has some problems.. not all electronics are 100% perfect.. if it's still under warranty... take it back to the store or call Pioneer and see where that leads.

good luck.

I'm going to check the specs on your Pioneer.

Dr. Spec

If the AVR has an adjustable crossover for digital bass management, you might want to try setting all the speakers to small with the highest xo possible (maybe 120 Hz). And then send the sub a signal through the pre-out. This should free up some power for the mids/highs and help the AVR to run cooler.

brickie

Hate to say it, but it might just be the receiver..The non elite Pioneers are decent at best..And yes I own one and are a HUGE pioneer fan.

Iv'e got a 810s(little older) and it just simply could not handle the demands of the bass of some dvds.It drove me crazy!!! The way i solved it was by going to seperate amplification.I just use it as a pre/pro now. From the reviews,i know Polk speakers can be very diffulcult to drive,and dip down into the 4ohm and below range.

brickie

1sctrojan

This is incredible. I got a 2 sentence reply saying, i can't believe this, " your receiver can't handle all that power, please get a subwoofer with an RCA jack". Hello? So a Pioneer receiver can't handle a $500 speaker system? Is Pioneer admitting their receivers are of inferior quality? So what now? Should i hook up a monster sub cable from my unfiltered LFE out on my sub to the sub preout on my receiver? Or should i trade it in for a HK230 and pay the extra $100? The HK230 only has 1 digital coaxial, i really need 2 unless someone can tell me another way to hook up my PC to the receiver.

Frank Z

I had a Pioneer Elite receiver before making the jump to seperates. I hate to say it but i was never impressed with the non-Elite receivers. Not what you want to hear, but looks like your receiver just isn't up to the task the way you got it set up.

I'd try hooking up the sub via the LFE out, crank up the receivers crossover to 150 and turn the sub's crossover as high as it will go (no need to double filter the lfe signal), and then see how everything sounds and performs. Not everyone likes the "Polk Method" for hooking up smaller systems, or larger systems for that matter.

phoneisbusy

Originally posted by 1sctrojan
...Where are all the other people with comparable setups like mine? They only watch the food network?

mmmmhmmmm... Iron chef...

Welcome 1sctrojan,

Sorry you're having so much trouble with your setup. I use to have the vsx 710 and now have the PE vsx 41. I haven't had any of the problems you've experienced but I may have never pushed the system like you have. One difference is I used the sub lfe and set the mains to small. I actually noticed an improvement in the midrange when I did that.

Pioneer and many other manufacturers tend to overstate their max wattage range (i.e. They use 6 ohms). When they say 100 watts/ch, it probably more like 60.

As for trading for an HK, you'll have to let your ears tell you which sound you'd prefer. There are digital coaxial - optical converters that might solve you the digital coax limitation .

good luck

Dave

Toxis

Originally posted by 1sctrojan
This is incredible. I got a 2 sentence reply saying, i can't believe this, " your receiver can't handle all that power, please get a subwoofer with an RCA jack". Hello? So a Pioneer receiver can't handle a $500 speaker system? Is Pioneer admitting their receivers are of inferior quality? So what now? Should i hook up a monster sub cable from my unfiltered LFE out on my sub to the sub preout on my receiver? Or should i trade it in for a HK230 and pay the extra $100? The HK230 only has 1 digital coaxial, i really need 2 unless someone can tell me another way to hook up my PC to the receiver.

1. Sorry but the Pioneer guy was accurate. It's not that good of a receiver. They're still relying on their name for sales. I have them at my shop and unless someone just walks up and says "Give me that," none of us ever sell them. They're honestly no better than Sony and even JVC is an upgrade.

2. The H/K has 2 coax in on the back and a third up front. Same with Optical. Trade in your Pioneer for the H/K and be happy. It will handle the output just fine. Pioneer is not high current, no matter what they say. H/K is. The 230 has +-30amps of power vs. Pioneer's 5-8. 'Nuff said.

dave shepard

I've been looking for somekinda reply from his post in the sub topic then I came accross this one. Dam double posting confused kids.

Dave

HBombToo

Originally posted by Kenneth Swauger
snapping together required more than 500 Watts. Imagine what some of the special effects, in movies, can require!

My outlaw 770 is more than 3dB down... Good God where does it end?:rolleyes:

at least my subs have a seperate amp. The Sampson has done well in reproduction; however, the fan noise makes me crazy at low volumes.:(

ohhhhh wellllllll

Looks like mono blocks in the future. My wife will scold me:eek:

Twin

brody05

I have in the past had an issue with overloading. I found that after it happened a few times it started happening easier and easier on the same tracks, maybe some damage to the amp somewhere, I am not familiar with the pioneer you talk off but if it is happening with more frequency and more easily you could be making things worse.
Also if you have so much as 1 - 2 strands of -ve and +ve speaker wires touching each other it could be changing the current draw. What creates more of a problem is the current draw, this overloading is done more by frequency than volume, ie lower freq sound effects create more of a load on the amp than mid freq at higher levels, try some sort of low pass filter to decrease the load the speakers are drawing.
If it is happening more easily with music than DVDs (that carry more low freq effects) then this could be a simple answer and cutting the super low stuff out wont make any noticable diff to the sound.

1sctrojan

I returned the Pioneer and bought a HK 230, and it was on sale. I have everything hooked up. However, i'm having a problem , with of all things, the remote, LOL. I did go to college but must have missed the HK avr230 remote class. I have the mute and volume working but can't use the other buttons. The receiver says "video 1/coaxial 1" then "dolby pl11 movi. Doesn't change. On the left corner it says Dolby digital but in the speaker diagram on the far right it only shows L/R fronts as activated although i can hear sounds from all speakers (5.1). I only have my Digital cable box hooked up to the receiver, no DVD, etc. I'll keep playing around but the receiver sounds awesome, much better than the Pioneer.

1sctrojan

I forgot to take the plastic film off the front panel, LOL.

danger boy

Originally posted by 1sctrojan
I forgot to take the plastic film off the front panel, LOL.

DOH!!!