on bi-wiring, my .02...(long)

juice21 · February 2002

ok, finally got around to testing out the theory of bi-wiring on my system today. first, the equipment; rec.- kenwood vr-309, cd/dvd-panny dvd-x410, speakers- polk rt800i's.

the cables:
cable A- original monster cable 2xAWG12 banana plug terminated.
cable B- monster s14-4cl 4xAWG14 banana plug terminated.

speaker set-up- speakers where placed about 10' from listening postion, 2' from each other and 2' from rear wall, both directed toward listening postion. one hooked to front left A, one hooked to front left B. this allowed for my best attempt at a blind test(thanks to my gf, isn't she great?

). i hooked up one with the original monster and the other was bi-wired with the s14-4cl bi-wire cable. i showed my gf how to switch between the a/b speaker selections, and it was time to begin.

all demo's were music;
demo 1, DMB-crash, track 3-crash into me:
listening, listening, my girlfriend makes the switch, and i was like, where did the bass go? didn't say anything, but concentrated on the sound. switched again, and again. (i told her not to go back and forth, but sometimes take a speaker off for a second and put the same one back on, as to fool me, or do the best job at a blind test i could do) i asked my GF, "is it on the bi-wired speaker now?", she replied, "the one with 4 things going into it?":D yes. i asked her to switch to the original again, and i did instantly notice the presence of the bass seemed to be missing again. playing this track first, i was amazed at the difference that the bi-wiring had done. the bass was much more present, and tighter as well. not incredible so, but listening very carefully, it was obvious. even my gf noticed it, she sat in the sweet spot and i switched back and forth for her a few times.

demo 2, tori amos-little earthquakes, track 1-crucify:
again, not knowing if i was listening to the bi-wired or standard cable i began listening again, this was not as rich a track as the DMB in the bass dept, so i was waiting to her the obvious difference again. again, my preference came to the bi-wired speaker, this time convinced more that she was 'there', or 'here' i should say, in my listening room. nt a drastic improvment, but more of a step from the recording and toward being at a live performance, and isn't that what it's all about??? i went on to listen to track 5-winter, and again the same thing. at points her voice did seem to get a little bright and almost revealed the harshness in her voice. at first, i questioned if i really liked this, was it real, or was it a bi-product of the bi-wiring adding a lightness and airness to the highs that shouldn't of been there. after listening it to a few mroe times, i was convinced that it was just the nuances of her voice that i had never heard before. (them may have been there, just that i was listening more intensly now, cause they did apper on the standard wired speaker, just not as apparently now.)

demo 3, miles davis- kind of blue, track one- so what:
(i'll try to keep these last 2 short, if you're bored, skip down to the conclusion.)
again, as with the DMB track, miles bi-wired has much more presence and the bass region was more powerful and tight. (did anyone else notice that for the first 20-30 seconds on this track, the front left speaker puts out sligt hiss? both bi-wired and not, and when i switched everything back later and listened in stereo, i heard the hiss, walked right up to the speakers, and determined again it was the front left tweeter, cupped my hand over it, and 'hiiiisssss' was all that was eminating. this dissolves as the track continues, just wondering if other noticed this?)

finally demo 4, ottarino respighi-pini di roma, track one- i pini di villa borghese:
listening between a/b on this recording i was hard-pressed to notice the difference, it was there slightly, but barely percievable at all, and at this point i knew which speaker was which...

in conclusion:
i have my fronts(rt800i's) and center(cs400i) al bi-wired now. i spent the money, and for the price, i think that the sonic improvement was there. i feel that this was a fair test, going into it not knowing which was bi-wired and whcih was not (my best attempt at a blind test). i wanted to know for real, and not think that i spent my money wisely and wanted to hear the results for my wallets sake. while not a huge jump in sonic differences, the biwiring opened up the speakers, made a sizable difference in the presentation of the bass, and overall created a more life-like listening soundstage, a step away from listening to a recording, and one closer to 'being there', much more of a presence! for the money, it is worth it, IMO. as for those out there still skeptical, all i can suggest, is try it out. i was, and now i believe. i honestly wondered if it would really make a difference, especially with my 'lower-end' reciever, but it did, and i am glad i gave it a shot...

thanks for listening, and i hope this long-**** post can be helpful for some newbies, and for those not familiar yet with bi-wiring....

TrappedUnder Ice · February 2002

Sounds like a pretty fair test... but you really did not bi-wire them. Granted..you used a/b and split the signal... but true bi-wireing them would mean a seperate amplifier to each....What you did..as I have been told.. is like Gheto bi-wiring.

In the end..glade you hear the improvements and sounds like you had fun doing it...

Thomas_A

presidan · February 2002

I thought bi wiring was what juice did and that what you are talking about was bi amplify ?

juice21 · February 2002

trapped... i did truly bi-wire them. bi-amping would be running one amp to the lower binding posts, and a seperate amp to the upper binding posts. 'ghetto' bi-amping, as it is referred to here, is thought as using the a/b speaker outs to send different signals to both binding posts on one speaker. i had two speperate speakers. speaker A was bi-wired from the left front output A on my rec. speaker B was traditonally wired from the left front output B on my rec. only one speaker was playing at a time, and using the a/b outputs it was a quick and easy way to switch from one to another to hear the differences...

TrappedUnder Ice · February 2002

I'm sorry..you are correct.. I was thinking bi-wire... am I forgiven master???

juice21 · February 2002

you are. soon, the force will be strong with you as well...:D

ntculenuff · February 2002

what about movies ? notice a difference ?
curious cause bi-wiring is something i will be trying in the near future

johnnyamerika · February 2002

hmmmm, but juice, how did you bi-wire your center, there's no A/B for the center channel, right?

I was thinking about using the LFE line out to wire the bass on the 1000s, and wiring the mids/highs without the gold connector plate. I want to achieve a true bi-wire on the center 400 though, so I'm curious how you did it!

thanks,dude!
john

juice21 · February 2002

i think my a/b speaker outs cause some confusion. that was just to test the different formats. now that i have both fronts and the cetner bi-wired, everything is wired from the A outputs on the reciever, all jumpers are removed from the front and center speakers, and the 4x14AWG is wired 2 (one -,one+) to the lower binding posts, 2 (one -,one+) to the upper binging posts on each speaker. at the reciever, each of the (+)/(-) terminals for each speaker receive one banana with 2 of the 4 cables wound together, 2 to the (+), 2 to the (-), but into one banana. i hope this clears up how i have my front soundstage bi-wired now. this is true bi-wiring. i had no intention of bi-amping these speakers with my reciever using the a/b outputs simultaneously. i see no benifit in this, and i do not believe a beter sound quality could be reached bi-amping in this manner, when i have the money to afford 2 seperate amps for my front two speakers, tha may be an option for me, but for now, bi-wiring works great!

ntculenuff - i didn't test bi-wiring on movies, i heard the differences in the stereo formats, and it was enough to justify my thoughts on bi-wiring, in DD format, my rec. won't let me use the easy a/b format, it uses a stereo downmix when the B speaker is selected, and it just messes eveything up. plus my GF was getting a little tired of having everything disconnected, didn't want to spend all day on it...:D

johnnyamerika · February 2002

Wow, ok, I get it now. I was wondering how the A/B setup would do that, because I have an Onkyo as well, which diverts only to stereo when a and b are turned on.

But I have a couple questions; I've heard from many sources, one of which being my Onkyo manual, that you should never connect two sets of wire to one post. It 'supposedly' can damage your amplifier. Any truth to that?

Also, would it be necessary to use a banana clip on the reciever end to accomplish this? I'm wondering if winding the two cables together would cause skinning effect and bad polarity in the wires, ie. the power does not get distributed evenly, maybe a loss of certain frequencies, etc.

And if the two wires are coming from identical sources, and each component uses an internal crossover to divert signal between his and lows, how does this improve sound quality? My guess would be cutting a length of cable and using that as a jumper instead of the flat gold connector would improve sound quality just as much. I'm guessing the flat, wide jumpers that come standard on these speakers are inferior in conductivity to a length of 16-12 AWG cable. The signal has so much room to spread, to transfer improperly and to skin with these jumpers.

This topic is damn interesting!

john

AllenLongcor · February 2002

Can someone please explain the benefits of biwiring and how exactly you biwire a speaker? If that would be too long if you could point me to where I can read about those things that would be great!

johnnyamerika · February 2002

If you just read above you'll figure it out man!

juice21 · February 2002

johnny, i have the 4x14AWG individually banana plug terminated at the speaker end, and two wires (+ & - respectively) are doubled up (twisted together) at the rec. end and banana terminated, leaving me two bananas to plug into the posts on rec.

as for damaging your amplifier by doing this, i don't think so. any manufactured bi-wire you purchase is going to do this, even some higher end cables will use 4 or 6 smaller guage cables in a specific winding in a traditionally wired cable (just giving two end at either side), so in essence you are still wiring more than one speaker wire to each post on your rec. what will/can damage an amp is wiring two wires that are running to two different speakers, thus changing the ohm/wattage load due to wiring in either series or parallel.

as for just replacing the stock jumpers, people on here have done that and noticed soinc results as well....

sean Bourg · February 2002

ok I read with great interest your "experiment".. you make me want to try it myself all over aagin!!!!

Here is a question for you though your speakers were very close together ... I think you said 2'... would there, in your opinion, be a sonic difference with the speakers further apart...

and one more .... what if you sitched left and right speakers ....
Could it be that particular track or tracks had more base on that particular channel ... I think by trying multiple sources /cd's you ruled this out ,,,, ,,

Systems · February 2002

Out of curiousity, what is wrong with "ghetto bi-amping"? Is it considered ineffective or damaging, or is it simply a "negative status symbol"?

juice21 · February 2002

sean, i think there would be a sonic difference would have been different if the speakers were further apart, but remeber, only one speaker was on at a time, so i don't think it would be great.

as for differences on R/L channels, both speakers were recieving the front left signal, just one from the A output, and one from the B, so on all sources, each speaker was recieving the same signal, so they were eqaully fed, and comparable...

as for trying it yourself, i say go for it! it was very eye, or should i say ear, opening...:D

meestercleef - i do not believe there is any sonic benefit to 'ghetto' bi-amping, and i believe you may be opening the recievers amp to possible problems. anything prefixed with 'ghetto' is going to be a negative... i could be wrong on this though

CHRIS · February 2002

What you are doing is kinda bi-amping. I found this online and in no way do I consider anyone on here an idiot it is just what its called

. It give a lot of good info if you read it you can bi-wire all your speaks whch inable you to, dual termials.

Bi-Wiring 101: The Idiot's Guide

Bi-wiring has generally been perceived as an article of faith of the British audiophile community, whereas American high-end speaker manufacturers tend to be more divided on the topic, e.g. Thiel is well-known for their insistence on supplying only one set of terminals on their gorgeous speakers, all in the name of coherence. Anyhow, most speakers made for the high-end market nowadays possess at least 2 pairs of inputs, so most buyers will have the opportunity to experiment with bi-wiring, while the more adventurous (and more wealthy!) may even dip their toes into the big-game territory of bi-amping.
For the record, bi-wiring refers to the practice of driving the treble and mid/bass units via two separate sets of speaker cables from the same power amplifier. When separate amplifiers for the treble and mid/bass drivers are used as well, then the speakers are said to be bi-amplified. Certain manufacturers of 3-way or 2+1 way speakers even have provisions for tri-wiring or tri-amping via the inclusion of the requisite number of speaker terminals. Many power amplifiers are also now equipped with two sets of speaker outputs to facilitate bi-wiring.
Proponents of bi-wiring argue that separate cabling of the drive units decrease the effects of back EMF generated by the individual drivers, and that this back EMF causes deleterious effects on damping and resolution in conventionally-cabled speakers. Bi-wiring, as the marketing spiel goes, allows the amplifier to "see" each driver as a separate unit, and certainly this claim has a good gut feel to it. To audiophiles, "isolation" has always been a central philosophy which relates to good sound!
The cynical point out that this entire concept was simply dreamt up by the marketing gurus of cable companies to sell more wire! Benefits, if any, are likely accrued from the reduced resistance that double runs of cable produce, although these may be negated by other theoretical problems such as non-specific inductive effects.
Some people feel that the use of bi-wiring allows the audiophile to further customize the sound of their speakers, though this seems like anathema to most as good cables are not supposed to be heard and neutrality is the widely-acknowledged holy grail for all true believers. However it makes sense, for instance, to use darker-sounding cables to tame forward drivers, and cables with good bass characteristics for the mid/bass units -- after all, not everyone can afford top-of-the-line cables which are truly excellent across the band, like the Black Pearls for instance (if you haven't heard an A-B demonstration of these awesome hoses, do so quickly!).
So what are the rules? Well, here are some which I've picked up and found to be useful, in my experience at least:
The cheapest way to go is to invest in cables which are bi-wire ready (one pair of connectors at the amplifier end, two pairs at the speaker end), though I've found that the difference is usually not significantly audible.
If you do not wish to bi-wire but your speakers are bi-wire ready, then by all means eschew the supplied bridging posts (which are typically of inferior quality and negate much of what you have spent on your precious cables) and construct your own from mid to superior grade speaker cables (often after stripping off the external coat) -- Audioquest's Type 4's have frequently been recommended for this purpose and I'll have to say I agree.
The same rules regarding keeping lengths short apply.
If you only have one set of speaker out terminals on your power amp, things can get a bit crowded -- in any case, ensure that all connections are clean and tight.
If your cables are of differing quality, usually the best results can be obtained by using the better/ more expensive cable for the upper/ treble unit. I use AQ Midnight's for the treble and Indigo's for the mid/bass of my Totem Model 1's -- the reverse arrangement just doesn't cut it. Of course, by all means you should experiment with your own system and go with whatever sounds best. If one set of cables is known for a particular set of qualities, e.g. excellent bass, then it is logical that they should be matched to the corresponding driver.
Frankly, I think bi-wiring works a lot better than those **** pucks and stones!
Hope this has been useful please send me your comments!
Copyright © 1999 Chia Shi-Lu
Back to Audiostuff!

juice21 · February 2002

chris, are you saying that what i am doing is not bi-wiring? how is that?

danger boy · February 2002

Juice21 thanks for the test.. i've been tossing around the idea of bi-wiring my 800's too. Now I know for sure that it will make at least a slight improvement in sound quality.. and afterall thats what it's all about. I'm not the type of audio person who likes loud music ... but I like the best sound I can possibly get from the system I currently have.

One question I do have, is once you bi-wired your 800's and CS400 did it require your receiver to work harder? did you have to up the volume more than usual to power all the new wires?

thanks, Al

P.S. I agree.... this is a very interesting thread

juice21 · February 2002

al, i was leary about spending the $ on the cables for awhile, but now i would recommend it to anyone, especially you, have the same speakers as myself. it adds a greater definition and clarity, so you will happy with the results. actually, when i first watched a movie i thought it sounded a little lower than it usaully did at the same volume i regularly listen to, but it was just because my rec' had been put into the stereo down-mix signal i talked about earlier. just funny you mentioned it, because at first i was like, "what the ....?", after i switched it back over though, i have not noticed a substaintial decrease in volume at my normal listening levels...

CHRIS · February 2002

Juice-You have to read the post above for detail. Bi-wiring is when you run 2 cables from 1 amp to the 2 conections on the back of you speaker. Bi-amping is when you run 1 wire from 1 amp to 1 of the connections on your speakers and another from another amp to the other.
So what you did basicly is used channel A as one amp and channel B as the other or something like it. Let me say it another way run 2 cables from the right channel out on the back of your receiver and conect on to the top and the second to the bottom conector on you right speaker, that is biwiring. It get real confusing I wish we had archives from the last forum. If you replace the jumpers on the back of your speakrs with quality cable you will get better clarity too.
seing A/B like that might damage your receiver also. I don't know for sure if it will or not but I think it will.

OrangeToupee · February 2002

Juice, not sure why all of the confusion regarding your bi-wiring escapades. Even I understood it after the first post, and I don't usually understand squat on this board.

Now, if I were to pursue such an undertaking, I assume that I would remove the stock gold plate (jumper ?) because it would no longer be necessary. On the other hand, if I were to eschew the idea of running two sets of cable to one speaker (bi-wire), I could also apparently make an improvement by removing the gold plated jumper and running two small sets of speaker wire from the bottom posts to the top posts? Do I have any of this figured out?

Thanks to everyone who's posted on this topic, it's no doubt been a big help for many of us.

CHRIS · February 2002

Juice and whoeverelse look at this item on ebay it is a set of bi-wirers it should explain everything.

Search item 1331472978 it was to long of a lnk to work.

You don't use speaker a/b on your receiver to bi-wire.

juice21 · February 2002

chris, are you reading the same post??? my speakers ARE bi-wired. the right front channel (-) of my rec. is running two wires, one to the rt800i (-) lower post, one to the rt800i (-) upper binding post. the RF(+), LF (- & +), C (- & +) are all wired the same way, respectively, all bi-wired. i am not using a/b speaker outputs to bi-wire (that was to test two seperate speakers for ease), try re-reading....

juice21 · February 2002

orange, thanks for getting it. i thought i explained it and re-expainged it well. guess i shouldn't have gone into the detail of my testing set-up, since that was just for testing(and seemed to cause confusion with the a/b set-up on different speakers???)...

now, to your quesions. if you were to bi-wire, you would remove the stock jumper on your speaker connecting the upper and lower binding posts. some on the board have made replacement jumpers as you have mentioned with noticed results as well. this would be cheaper, as it would only call for 4-8" of additional cable, rather than running another 8-10' run back to your rec., i personally do not have any experience doing this, so i cannot comment to it's results, but bi-wiring, go for it! i would suggest at least 14AWG wire to make replacement jumpers, preferably 12AWG...

have fun tweaking...:D

and i'm glad this has been useful for some...

kanicker · February 2002

Question for Juice 21 or aynone else who has experience:

Isn't there only room for 1 banana plug on a binding post? So, on the back of your reciever, did you have one wire connect with a banana plug and one with something else? Or did you couple both wires onto one connector into the back of your reciever.

I too just obtained a pair of 800i and currently have them hooked up with 12ga monster cable (bare wire).

If I were to remove the jumper and connect with wire then there is another issue: my 800is dont seem to have a place to connect on the top of the post, so there isn't enough room for 2 12ga wires. If I use a smaller gauge then doenst wouldn't that be comparable to just leaving the jumpers on?

Please help! Thanks!

CHRIS · February 2002

Juice-I not trying to give you a hard time I should have styed out of this post. As it seems to me as well as others you had them hooked to speaker a for top and speaker b for bottom. If his is not how they are hooked then great they should be done the right way. As I read it for the 4th time it still sounded that way. I hope with you explaining it it doesnt't sound that way to others. I didn't want to see your equipment messed up and hope you can see this is why I posted. Its all for the fun of audio man! It was just confusing. There were no intentions of pissing anyone off.:D

HUNTER · February 2002

Hey Juice,
I don't see why some seem so confused. I read your post once and it was very clear that you were testing the speakers on a/b. Some people have trouble comprehending what they read. Good post.

Thanks

juice21 · February 2002

on the reciever end i have two wires twisted together terminated into 1 banana to go into each binding post. i found this to be the best method when bi-wiring. you could also twist 2 into a spade terminator. the 800's are great speakers, and i had mine bare wired with original monster 12AWG since i got them a couple of months ago. the plastic plugs on the end/top of the rt800i's pop off so you can use a banana plug. if you do bi-wire, DO REMOVE the stock jumper... on the speaker end, no (2) 12AWG cables will go to one post. at the speaker end, all 4 cable ends are seperate, each connected to one binding post. at the reciever end, take the 2 (+) ends(from the + upper & lower posts of the speaker), twist together, banana(or your preference) terminate and plug into the respective (+) post on your rec. have fun, and good luck! you can email me if you have any further questions when attempting this...:D

juice21 · February 2002

hunter, welcome to the forum...:D

glad you enjoyed the read! hope to see you around here often...

chris, i guess my writing is ambigous to some. i DO NOT have the speakers wired to the a & b outputs on my rec., when setting up to test i had two speakers (a & b). speaker a was wired to reciever left front a, speaker b was bi-wired to reciever left front b. each speaker had a different speaker selection, not both on one, just to clear up for those still in the fog...

this thread was intended to help those not too familiar with bi-wiring, and give my thoughts on the subject. any confusion caused was not intentional, and i think most people got it. there's no hard feeling here toward anyone, and and i hope everyone is now clear on how to bi-wire your speaker, if it is applicable with your model. IT IS, ALL FOR THE FUN OF AUDIO!!!!:D

johnnyamerika · February 2002

I think the whole speaker a/b stuff was my bad! I'm going to bi-wire my cs400i, but I think instead of using clips or plugs I'm just going to solder the tips of the wires. Bare back it, baby!

on bi-wiring, my .02...(long)

Comments