few issues with my polk setup

cprince · July 2004

Hi,

newbie here, hope im posting in the right section, but that aside. My setup:

Front: RTi8
Center: CSi3
Sub: PSW404
Surround: Old Pioneers (which i will be upgradin shortly to polks ofcourse)
AMP: Yahmaha HTR-5560

Now, everything i bought is from authorized polk audio dealers, brand new, in box. Now my first issue is my Sub. I cant feel the bass the way i would like to. I dont know if theres soemthing wrong with the sub, or maybe i havent set it up right, but the bass just doesnt kick as much as it should. Ive tried connecting to both filtered / unfiltered, i thinnk filtered works better, less distortion, but still wont push. The sub actually pushes in the cornor i have it placed,but at the opposite end of the room, you cant feel much. Actually, in the cornor were it is placed, i can feel what i would EXPECT to feel sittin back at my sofa in the back of the room. I have the volume set to a little past half. I know im not giving you any information thats helpful, but im hoping someone with the same/similar amp may have experience. Also, my floor is concrete... dont know if that helps at all... My second issue is with my center channel. again, the voices dont come clear, sound all muffled. I dont know what imformation would be useful to help diagnose my problem, so i am lookin forward to some feedback as to what you may need to know. Thanks for readin this essay, and hopfully i didnt do/say anything that ends me up in the Hall of Shame

P.S I havent played around with my amp settings much either, but i have the bass/treble knobs at half, the R/L surround at +10 db and cetner at +0.5 db , also, i dont go past 70db... (-30db on my system, is that good? bad? what should i be maxin out at )

Thanks for any help!

VR3 · July 2004

How big is your room?

Sounds like your subwoofer is to small...

cprince · July 2004

11x22 and 5x10 (feet, refer to pic which is not to scale, )

RED=sub
blue=mains
purple=center
green=rear
black=sofa

(i know rears are too close to sofa, but nothign i can do bout that... doesnt matter to me, its teh sub/centeR)

As you can see, i have an open area, which may be affectin my sound?

Dennis Gardner · July 2004

Thats a large room to fill, but you made some pretty good speaker and receiver choices.

You really have a need for calibrating all your speakers properly
using a SPL meter to measure each channel and balance out each one. This can be done with test tones from your receiver for the main channels, but you may need some low test tones to set the sub, or a disc like Avia for proper theater setup.

From the settings you gave, the fronts are way hot compared to your center.

What is your sub setting on your receiver?

What is the crossover setting on your sub channel on your receiver?

You should be using the LFE output from you receiver.

Give a little more info and we will try to help.

VR3 · July 2004

He needs a bigger subwoofer...lol

PolkThug · July 2004

Originally posted by cprince
but i have the bass/treble knobs at half, the R/L surround at +10 db and cetner at +0.5 db

My settings are something like R +6, C +7, L +6., R/L surrounds +9 I think.

You are sitting really far away from the TV. Do you have an SPL meter?

Dennis Gardner · July 2004

I agree with you Trey, but he didn't say he was driving the 404 into distortion or bottoming it out.

I think his sweet spot is about 8-10 feet closer than his room setup that he is using.

He might benefit by moving the sub back to his couch location and run it out of phase with his mains. This would put the bass closer to his seating.

cprince · July 2004

Hi, thanks for the replies, i wish i had came here before i bought my center/sub, i just read a couple reviews on goggle

Ok, i dont have an SPL meter, but i'll grab one on my way from work if it will help get the most out of my system. My sub setting on my receiver? There isnt much option on my receiver for my sub, it only has an option to select where the bass comes from, mains, sub,or both. also, if i want to lower my sub power, -20-0 db. nothing else. As for the crossover setting.. Sorry i dont know what that means, but thats all the sub options my receiver has.
Thats a large room to fill, but you made some pretty good speaker and receiver choices. As for LFE output, yes i am, but there are some settings with the LFE i am not familiar with, hoping someone with the same amp can explain. As for more info, argh, i dont know what else could be of use. OK, for the LEF level on my receiver, its control range is -20 to 0 dB. (right now its at 0, ) and for the LFE knob on my sub, its factory default, at a little more than half way, (similar to the volume knob) . Im using optical cables from my dvd player to receiver, and also from cd player to receiver. I also noticed that when i play a CD its MUCH louder at -30dB than a DVD (well, only dvd i amtest is Bad Boys 2, getting a new one this friday). Anything useful there? MY speakers on my receiver, are set as follow: front = large , center = small, rears = large (my center/rears are 150's , and my fronts are 250) The room setting on my receiver is medium, and the bass output mode is both, (fronts + sub) As for the center channel, my receiver has a GEQ (graphic equilizer) , and a set of Hz/kHz i am not familar with, so thye are all set at 0. If you could tell me your/optimal settings the values are:

100Hz, 300Hz, 1kHz, 3kHz, and 10kHz, control range is -6 to +6, inital setting is 0db for 5-band (straight out of the manual )

Trying to think of something else that will help... .using Dolby Digital when playin back movies, Matrix 6.1 . no rear center channel, (but somewhere in the near future, will upgrade to CSi5 and bump my cetner to rear). As for moving my sub to the back, i actually tried that.. behind my sofa... and the bass... was worse, i couldnt feel anything, actually, if i was in the middle of the room, i would, but right at my sofa.. i couldnt even feel the bass vibratin off my sofa. Given my financial situation (im only a student payin for this

) i dont have the option of upgrading, so as i have understood from yoru posts, my sub/center are weak, i am looking for ways to just max what i have. ANYthing will be helpful, and i thank you guys for the prompt posts.

Thanks

(did this in the morning, so excuse grammar/spelling)

EDIT: WHOOPS, regardin my first post, my AMp is HTR-5660 not HTR-5560 orwahtever i posted previously, sorry about that, hope that doesnt make a big difference

Dennis Gardner · July 2004

2 things are present.

You still have an unbalanced system with setup issues present if DVDs are not as loud as CDs. This could be crossover (filter) settings on your sub. (Your receiver has a fixed point at 90hz.)

Sub placement issues: You can find the best place for your sub by placing it right infront of your seating position on your couch and do a "sub crawl". Simply stated, crawl around the room on your hands and knees while playing strong bass material and find out where your sub sounds loudest. That loudest point is where your sub needs to be located to produce the loudest bass at your seating position. This uses your room's acoustical properties to emphasize the bass at your sweet spot instead of swallowing up the bass. This was noticed by you when the sub was located behind your couch, the sweet spot for that sub placement landed in the middle of the room.

You probably will not find a huge amount of bass from a single 10 inch model in odd shaped large room, but you can max out what bass there is by tweaking.

Let us know what you find out,

Dennis

cprince · July 2004

Thanks for the reply Venom,
Sitting here at work eagerly waiting responses from the Polk experts º Yes my sub is cornered. Its as the manual says, 6¡¨ from the wall and 8¡¨ from the left speaker. Yes my sub does have a phase switch on the back that toggles between 0-120 or 0-180, I don¡¦t remember what its set at, I will update as soon as I get home. Now once again, I¡¦m lost at the cross over setting part. What do you mean by my crossover settings should be about 40-45 Hz? As for wiring through my sub, do you mean my other speakers? No I have connected my other speakers to my receiver, all 5. On my receiver, the sub isn¡¦t able to gain and dB, you can only lower it, from -20 to 0dB. The center is usually, good during music, but with movies, I notice a muffle, like its been used/abused (but this is brand new, straight from futureshop) I noticed that if I tweak with the GEQ it gives a better sound, so I¡¦ hoping someone knows the ideal values to set for my GEQ (refer to my previous posts for info on my GEQ). I wish Yamaha had a online community like this, so I could ensure it wasn¡¦t a amp issue.

Thanks again for the help!

cprince · July 2004

Thanks for the reply Dennis,

When I said CDs are louder than DVDs, I was referring to the mains and the center. The sub itself is the same. As for the sub placement issue, I will give the crawling a try. About my sub.I dont know if its just my ears, but the sub doesnt sound proper. I was reading reviews on how the 404 isnt boomy and such, and the first thing I noticed when I tried it, was a sort of boominess to it (brand new, in box). For my room size / awkward shape, what sub would you recommend I get instead? Does Polk audio offer some sort of trade-in, pay/difference deal for users looking to upgrade? Im sensing that the only way to get the bass I want is to upgrade

Regardless, im getting off track here, I will try all the things you guys have told me, and report my findings today evening!

Thanks for the help!

scottnbnj · July 2004

i don't know much about sub placement, so i'll just leave it at i agree with others that it might help if closer to the listening position or at least in the same leg of the L as the listening position.

for the center, first toeing your left/right speaks in towards your listening position might help or be the easiest and quickest answer.

beyond that, if toeing closes in the image too much, i would expect your image to be uh, difficult with the reflections picked up off of the left wall, but not from the other side.

if you think this might be a problem, the answer is:

1. treat the left wall to tame reflections there.

2. build a partition or place something (entertainment unit or bookcase with back facing speaks) that will reflect speaker output on the right side.

depending on how you deal with this it might help reinforce your sub output.

this article or one like it might help:
http://www.ethanwiner.com/acoustics.html

for boominess, after/during sub positioning, it might not be a bad idea to consider standing waves and understanding how they effect your listening position.

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cprince · July 2004

ok, update, tested a few things out, here are my findings:

volume is at 12 o`clock
as for this crossover thing, theres a low pass crossover knob on my sub, i assume thats what your taking about, is set at around 45 Hz, as Venom suggested. now i tried the sub-crawl ... and i couldnt feel a thing anywhere.... could that be because of the concrete floor? even standing right beside the sub, nothing. Now something very intresting i noticed is.... the sound when standin behind the sub, is bommy, and sounds horrible/odd... but in front is good.. i guess thats why you aim it forwards

but besides that... there is more bass when i STAND UP , than while im sittin on the sofa.... so when the sub in on the ground.. and im standing right beside it... it sounds nice.... what i expect to hear (somewhat) but when i sit down... its like its not even there... I put the sub RIGHT infront of my sofa... and i didnt feel a thing... stood up, and felt it (not perfect, but its a start) . So i tried elevating the sub... like i put it on a table... sound sittin on my sofa was there... but wasnt as good as standing up. I think this should help diagnose my problem ? thanks for all the help, and i egarly awaiting a response!
i'll be testin in the meantime!

[EDIT]: ok, just realized, that the low pass, or crossover ? knob, only goes from 60-90-125... therfore since venom suggested 45... the best i can do is 60 .. so i set it at 60Hz, (which is the lowest )

Thanks!

Dennis Gardner · July 2004

The couch is absorbing your bass! The reason you here it better when you stand up is due to a reflection wave from a wall or ceiling hitting your ears in phase with a direct wave from your sub. This causes a 3 db increase in volume. A slight move in any direction causes the loss of the reflected wave and thus a lower volume. The room itself is actually one of the biggest factors to bass peaks and valleys more than the equipment is.

As a last test, move your receiver, mains, and sub to a small bedroom and crank it to see what you would be getting if you had more sub capability. You will be impressed how much the room makes.

Are you accustomed to alot of bass in a car audio system? Sometimes this really spoils us, as we try to pressurize our living rooms or theaters and expect a single 10 inch woof with 200 watts to power a room 50 times the size of your car's interior.

On a side note: your sub doesn't have a ton of bass left below the 45 hz crossover setting. You might try it around 80hz to boost the 40-80 range. 45 hz is great for movies, but alot of music is in the gap.

scottnbnj · July 2004

again, i don't know much about sub placement so i hope someone steps on me if i'm all wrong, but when you're doing your crawl you might try putting something solid/reflective between your sub and the sofa so the sofa isn't just soaking up all the energy.

your sub's output will be reinforced by a wall, corner, floor or other solid object close to it. if you try placement on the left or right wall where the sub output has an unobstructed path to the listening position, it also might help to put a solid object on the opposite side of the sub from the listening position to give it a little more umph.

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cprince · July 2004

ok, so what i have done now is...

moved the sub to the cornor of the room, opposite my mains, right by the sofa. if i stand RIGHT beside the sub in the conor, it sounds orgasmic (i wish it sounded like that everywhere

) now, when im at the sofa... its obvious the bass is only comming from the left side.. the right side is empty.... now if i center the sub, behind hte sofa, which i have tried in the past, i wont feel anything. So if anyone can suggest something to fix that, i should be okay.
[edit:] i know this is far-fetchd but is there any product out there, that i could... say, apply to the back of my sofa, so that the sound wont get absorbed ? im desperate here

otherwise, its obvious this sub isnt cuttin it for me, and i guess i'll need your recommendations as to which sub to upgrade to. Does Polk offer like a trade in or something? Pay the difference or discounted price with trade in? Sub is barely touched, 1 month old, never past the 12 o'clock part. pretty sad i've resorted to this

thanks for all the help guys!

donahue · July 2004

cprince,

Have you tried the following:

1) If your receiver has an adjustable crossover for the sub, set to 80hz or 100hz. Some receivers has a built-in, non-adjustable crossover. I have a NAD T761 receiver and my sub crossover is fixed at 100hz.

2) Set all speakers to small. This will redirect more bass to the sub.

3) Connect your sub-out cable to the unfiltered input on the sub. This will bypass the crossover on the sub, so it doesn't matter what the crossover on the sub is set to.

4) Calibrate using Avia (or some other calibration disk), using an SPL meter.

Hope this helps,

donahue

scottnbnj · July 2004

forgive me if this has been gone through in the thread. is your carpet crushing enough to give the sub a firm footing?

if the sub can rock or crush the carpet more if you press down on the top of it, it might help to put the sub on patio blocks or a slab of stone.

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brody05 · July 2004

OK, first off, if the signal out of your amp is filtered you need to plug it in to the LFE input of your sub, the crossover is then useless and does nothing, set your sub settings to LFE plus mains, the front speakers will still get the full range signal if you select large and the sub gets it all. You could also try selecting no sub on your amp and run the front left and right preouts to your sub. Are you sure the sub is working 100%, ie try it in a different room, different amp or compare with a shop demo ect, if there is a diff between music and movies maybe a setup problem as well, what cables are you using ie digital coax or analog, have you tried other DVDs aswell. These things are the hardest to sort out and it is a process of elimination starting with tone tests and level setting. The phase thing is when the driver excursion is the same as other drivers in your speakers and has to do with sound waves cancelling each other out creating 'dead' spots, try adjusting the variable phase (or have someone do it for you while you listen) to find the best spot, basically the sub turned all the way up on the volume control should create a lot of SPL over your other speakers, check connections on plugs as well, a mate of mine had a loose conection on his sub and he didn't know any better about how the sub should have sounded at 100% but once shown he couldn't believe the difference. It is a process and will take time. Good luck.

cprince · July 2004

Hi guys,

I just would like to thank everyone for their help. This is the best form of tech support i have received. After much tweaking, reading, learning, i got the sub to play to my liking, from what i come ot expect from a sub. If you refer to the picture in my 2nd post, I moved the sub to the back, cornord it, and able to get the bass to travel all the way to where the room splits into two. Thats pretty much all i need... where my couch is. The main problem was sub at the front, then finding placement in the back was another issue. But in the end, thanks to all your help, I have made it to a point where i can be happy with what i have.

Thanks again for the help! I still havent resolved my center-channel issue, but that is a receive issue i'm sure. I only hope Yamaha has a similar fourm with tech support, because i need some clarification on this graphic equilizer!

Thanks again!

few issues with my polk setup

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