New Stero System for music only

saucyknave

I'm in the market for a new system optimized to play music, mostly jazz and classical (especially chamber and opera). Actually we also play rock and other contemporary music, but having a sound balance for jazz and chamber music such that I can hear all the individual instruments, voices, is most important. This is not intended for a home movie theatre or glitz TV. Just music.

My last stero purchase was 20 years ago. I'm not into tech, only the music it will give me, so I need HELP! I had a Yamaha something or other amp powering some Polk floor something or other speakers (floor) with 4- 5 of those thingy's, well, maybe 6. So, I'm a confessed techo-ignoramus.

I went looking at stereos the other day, and since Yamaha and Polk are still in business, I thought I'd probably stick with them unless someone has better suggestions. My old system gave me enough sound to hear it all over my 35x55' footprint house (3 stories). I'd prefer shelf speakers for visual reasons, but fear I'll lose too much sound quality. Now: what's the effective difference between 2-way, 3-way, and high definition speakers? And the blurbs on some of them suggests they're designed for "emerging" formats. What's THAT all about?

The next issue is how to synchronize the amplifier power with the speakers without simply throwing myself on the mercy of the seller? Would the 80 amp Yamaha be sufficient for any of the Polks? Too much for some?

So I've thrown myself on your mercy. Please educate me.

Frank Z

Budget?

saucyknave

I'd like to keep my whole system under 2000 (3000 MAX). I'm frugal by nature and not a professional musician, so I would prefer to exercise restraint. I abandoned all my still working but mostly 20 year old equipment when I moved. I have the impression that to the extent that the quality of the components may not be quite equal, that I should get good speakers to grow the rest of the system into. I can use advice on the amp, receiver, etc. as well. I have had systems with separate amp, pre-amp, receiver and I've also had an all-in-one. Thoughts on that decision are welcome, also. As I'm new to this forum, is it better to post this question in parts, part for part as it were? Or as a single system question?

I'm not looking for the gold standard, but I am hoping to set up a system that will give me a good listening experience and leave some money for what I still call "records."

danger boy

I heard for the first time a pair of Polk LSi 15's running off a NAD receiver and a NAD amp. It was quite impressive to say the least. Much of my experience has been with the Polk RTi line of speakers. I can honestly say that the LSi line is much smoother sounding. I never knew the RTi line up was that harsh. But with a back to back demo.. it really is a pretty big difference.

If you want really good accurate sound from your speakers... start with the LSi line. It will save you a bunch of time wasted listening to the RTi line of speakers. Since it sounds like you might be going with Polk already.

If most of your experience has been with 20 yr old Yammie gear.. i think you might just be surprised at how far receivers and other components have come in that time.

If your only interest is in two channel audio... you may want to look into a stereo unit.. and not all the other video switching that comes with a home theater receiver.

come back and ask more questions.. the folks in here are a huge help. Now that we know your budget.. there are lots of options in your price range.

best of luck, al

jefft1314

I'm going to answer a few of your questions. First of all, running bookshelf speakers will result in an overall loss of sound quality compared to running a tower speaker, if you don't purchase a subwoofer to fill out the low end that the bookshelves can't reproduce. If you want to go the bookshelf route I'd highly suggest a HSU sub, just pick the one that fits your budget, they come highly suggested from pretty much anyone. You can order it from husresearch.com. As far as speakers are concerned you're going to have to make that decisions pretty much all on your own. I've yet to hear the LSI speakers, though for music, I've heard they're outstanding. So if you get the opportunity I'd demo the LSI 15's, just make sure that the store has adequate power running to them. As far as driving the speakers is concerned, if you go with 4ohm speakers, like the Polk LSI's, you'll want to stay away from all in one receivers. A Stereo Preamp and a couple of mono block amplifiers fron the Likes of Outlaw Audio might be your best option. I'm stumped as far as what to suggest for the preamp though. However, 2000 dollars should buy you quite the nice setup especially if you're willing to buy used.

jdhdiggs

With chamber music you are almost required to add a subwoofer to the system. If you like the polk sound, I would suggest the LSI9 and an SVS 16-46+ Subwoofer, a used pre, 2 channel amp, and CDP and then you should be at your $2K mark.

Maybe the rocket (av123) with the 750 sig would be up your alley as well. The have a very "polk like" sound and have some nice finishes.

If looking used, try and pick up some SDA's and a huge 2-channel amp for them. This should run about $1000 for the amp and some midrange SDA's leaving some money to add a sub to help fill in the 16-35 Hz range of some chamber music. That last octive is what will be missing from just about all speakers in your price range so you may really want to look for a sub regardless of the speakers you decide on.

Edit: A personel preference of mine is that the LSi's sound better with female vocalists than the SDA's. The SDA's have a much better soundstage than the LSi's. I have heard that you can modify the SDA's for virtually $0 to eliminate the weaknesses I find in female vocals.

PolkWannabie

Originally posted by jdhdiggs
Edit: A personel preference of mine is that the LSi's sound better with female vocalists than the SDA's. The SDA's have a much better soundstage than the LSi's. I have heard that you can modify the SDA's for virtually $0 to eliminate the weaknesses I find in female vocals.

What modifications are you referring to ? Replacement of the SL2000/3000 tweeters ? or ? link ?

TroyD

You lose sound quality with bookshelves as opposed to floorstanders? Pish Posh. That's not necessarily true. While I generally prefer floorstanders on principle it's not a given.

I'm assuming that you are looking for purely 2ch? With a budget of 2K? Pffffffft. I could put you together a PIMPING rig for that price if you don't mind a mix and match of used and new gear.

If I had 2 grand and wanted to put together a rig......hmmmm. New? I'd look at a pair of LSi9's (unless you are a bass freak, you can do without the sub) and possible the new MF X-150 integrated that everyone is wetting thier pants over.

Used? pfffft. Sky is pretty much the limit. Used SDA's, amp/pre choices nearly limitless. One bonus about the SDA's are that they are a pretty efficient speaker so they don't neccessarily require gobs of power to run unlike speakers like the DQ-10's or Carver Amazings.....

Jeeze, cochise....there are so many options it almost boggles my mind. I'd recommend going out and listening to some gear and seeing what you like.

BDT

TroyD

...since I see Paul's name lurking about...most importantly, buy Polk speakers.

New ones!

(they need raises and all that)

BDT

Early B.

Yeah, do what jeff1314 said:

Lsi15s (used) $600 (or save $300 and go for the Lsi7's)
Hsu sub (new) $400
2 Outlaw monoblocks (used) $400
Pre-amp (used) $200 -- check out the Parasound PH/P 850
CD player (used) $300 -- check out Cambridge Audio
Interconnects and power cords -- $300 (Signal Cable)

TOTAL: $2,200

saucyknave

I want to assure everyone that I am eagerly following each reply though I will not bore you all with repetitive “thank you’s” to each.

I’m learning a lot by seeing how you all would put together a system on my budget. One thing my eyes have opened to is the possibility of getting some higher end used equipment to get quality and stay within budget. Ordinarily I wouldn’t consider it, given my techno-innocence, but with the kind of advice I am getting here, it might work for me, too. (I’m kicking myself for abandoning my old Polk speakers instead of repairing them to use as starters and then pass to the second floor or my kids (dumb, dumb)).

Do I understand correctly that for my purpose - music only, no movie, tv, etc - I am looking only for stero, not surround sound? The reason I chose Polk years ago was that it seemed to my ear to give the most balanced sound for jazz, chamber music, opera, etc as opposed to the more base heavy popular music. From the discussion here, it seems that is still true? (I figure that when I do listen to pop (or even classical orchestral), I don’t miss the bass as much as I would miss the balance elsewhere. And that if I do miss it, I can just add another element later on?) Regarding speakers, it’s really helpful to me to hear what you have to say about different qualities in speakers. Learning about other brands makes me better informed, and from what I’ve heard, I’ll doubtless go with Polk, the difference being I’ll know why.

My first steros had separate amps, preamps, am-fm, etc. (including some Pioneer bits that my 1st DH had assembled). I gather that separation of elements will still yield the best result but that for my initial rig I might do better with an integrated amp-receiver? Yes? No?

Once consideration for me is that I’d rather have the equipment less conspicuous visually. Even more than the price difference, the size of the floor model speakers nudge me in the bookshelf direction. But when I listed to the Lsi bookshelves vs floor, the difference was obvious (the store used an 80 watt Yamaha, though I didn’t catch which one). So if someone can suggest a smaller set of speakers without quality loss, I’d be really grateful.

Another question I have for you, is how to find stores with good equipment. So far in the Philadelphia area, Tweeter is the best I can find. I don’t have any confidence in the young man who was helping me to make sure I put together a system that is optimally compatible, though I did get to hear some speakers. And if I were to get into equipment that has to be ordered online, how do I get it repaired if needed?

saucyknave

Originally posted by jefft1314
I'm going to answer a few of your questions. First of all, running bookshelf speakers will result in an overall loss of sound quality compared to running a tower speaker, if you don't purchase a subwoofer to fill out the low end that the bookshelves can't reproduce. If you want to go the bookshelf route I'd highly suggest a HSU sub, just pick the one that fits your budget, they come highly suggested from pretty much anyone. You can order it from husresearch.com. As far as speakers are concerned you're going to have to make that decisions pretty much all on your own. I've yet to hear the LSI speakers, though for music, I've heard they're outstanding. So if you get the opportunity I'd demo the LSI 15's, just make sure that the store has adequate power running to them. As far as driving the speakers is concerned, if you go with 4ohm speakers, like the Polk LSI's, you'll want to stay away from all in one receivers. A Stereo Preamp and a couple of mono block amplifiers fron the Likes of Outlaw Audio might be your best option. I'm stumped as far as what to suggest for the preamp though. However, 2000 dollars should buy you quite the nice setup especially if you're willing to buy used.

I just reread this and see that my thoughts about an all in one receiver even as a start up model. I'm not eager to have a lot of stero equipment cluttering up my house, but if I'm spending this much money I want the sound.

saucyknave

Okay, If I'm following this correctly, I can go with bookshelf speakers and get good sound IF I add more elements to supplement it. In that case, it's no solution for me as my interest in the bookshelf units, is less the price difference than the size and look of them. If I'd have to add more speaker bits, then I might as well go with the floor standing speakers. So, it's looking more like the LSi15, at the moment. And better still if I can get them used. Anyone upgrading?

TroyD

Well, here is my take on the bookshelf vs. floorstanders. If you want to position them properly, you have to put them on stands which pretty much negate the advantage over floorstanders. The LSi15's are not terribly wide anyway.

As far as amplification? I'd look for a nice, used preamp/amp combo. I partial to Carver but there are tons of options. Even a nice integrated.

All depends on what you want....

BDT

saucyknave

The more I learn, the more likely I am to get the LSI15 floorstanders. They sure sound better. Once again, if you're listenin' out there: Anyone out there going to upgrade in the next few months?

jdhdiggs

Originally posted by saucyknave
The more I learn, the more likely I am to get the LSI15 floorstanders. They sure sound better. Once again, if you're listenin' out there: Anyone out there going to upgrade in the next few months?

Remember that even with the 15's you'll be missing about half of the lowest audible octive. Most people won't notice on most music but if you really want the stand up bass, last notes on a piano, or the lows on an organ, you'll need a little more in the bottom end. 99% of the general population couldn't tell you that it is missing, but if it was there to compare against you might notice it in some of your music.

Personally, I know I'm missing it on my system, but since I never had it, I don't know neccessarily "what" it is that I'm missing... If that makes any sense...

TroyD

hmmmm....see, I'm going to disagree.

For a primarily musical system, I say ditch the sub. My LSi9's for most musical purposes dig low enough for me to say that I don't need a sub.

Adding a sub would SEEM to be the expedient thing to do but mating a sub into a rig primarily used for music, well, I think that in theory is a great idea. In terms of execution, it's not that simple.

BDT

jdhdiggs

Please note that I agree with you Troy... In most cases (including my own) My only concern is the "chamber music" requirement which really pushes the range down low virtually requiring some sort of sub.

steveinaz

I agree with Troy on both points; audio only=no sub; $2000 budget=buys a hellava system if you shop around.

Used HCA-1500A.....approx $600
New PHP850 pre....$249
Good CD Player.....$600
Speakers....take your pick, with good research you can do alot with $500 bucks.

danger boy

Originally posted by steveinaz
I agree with Troy on both points; audio only=no sub; $2000 budget=buys a hellava system if you shop around.

Used HCA-1500A.....approx $600
New PHP850 pre....$249
Good CD Player.....$600
Speakers....take your pick, with good research you can do alot with $500 bucks.

and your friends who will bring you free beer.. priceless

RuSsMaN

Whatever you do, do yourself the favor of getting a tube preamp.

As said above, the options with that budget are plenty.

Cheers,
Russ

F1nut

Yeah, what they said.

Amp - your choice
Tube Pre - your choice
or a nice tube integrated amp
CD - AH! Njoe Tjoeb tube player with available upgrade options, new $699.00, used $500 or so, if you can find one.
Speakers - NHT-SB3 bookshelf pair, new $600.00, used about $300 or $400. Solid down to 39Hz!!!

danger boy

i say even with 2ch listening.. a sub is important.... because.. none of the other speakers will be able to hit with the bass that a dedicated sub can.

My thoughts here is that even if the sub it set to a minimal volume, it will help fill out the lower frequencies that your fronts miss.

it's better to have a sub and not need it.. than it is to not have a sub and then need one.

TroyD

2 grand.....

AMC CD8b - 175 (that's what I paid for a refurb from AMC)

Pre: C/J PV 5 - 525
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?preatube&1092530184

Amp:Carver m1.0t - 389
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstran&1093906309

Cables and IC's....figure 150 or so for Signal cable (rough guess)

OK, that leaves me 761.....figure 150 in shipping...that leaves me about 600 to play with for a pair of speaks. I KNOW that I could find a good pair of speakers, Polk or otherwise for that. Take your pick....

Just saying brothas, it can be done, without much effort.

Still disagree. For music only system, a sub isn't needed and will cause more problems than it solves.

BDT

Frank Z

BDT Sticks The Landing!! No subs needed for a 2 Channnel system.

Another name to throw into the mix...Dared tube amps and pre-amps.

Early B.

Saucy--

For the type of music you enjoy listening to (i.e., chamber music), you'll definitely need a sub. Buy used equipment on-line and you'll save a bundle. Also, check out www.audioreview.com for consumer reviews on audio equipment.

TroyD

My point with the sub is this......

It's a lot tougher to integrate a sub into a 2ch rig than you might think. Generally, subs don't blend as well and you end up with a sound that isn't as coherent as you would expect. I hate to pick on Dan, but the whole matching thing does have some merit in this case. You give me a speaker that will hit in the mid 40's -3db and you've got a speaker that will do you justice for music, unless you are listening to pipe organs and so forth.

BDT

polkatese

My two cents:

Source: http://www.aplhifi.com/Pioneer563a.html ($695)
Speaker: LSi15 ($750+)
amp: any high-current reputable amp that can drive 4 ohms load adequately ($400+)

After owning this setup for the past 8 months, I am convinced that Input (source) and Output (speaker) are definitely make a huge improvement difference. In terms of the quality and quantity of bass/low freq., I can vouch that this modded Pio provides ample supply of it. My listening preference is mainly Jazz, just a fyi..

dmalino

Originally posted by jefft1314
First of all, running bookshelf speakers will result in an overall loss of sound quality compared to running a tower speaker, I've yet to hear the LSI speakers, though for music, I've heard they're outstanding.

Maybe you should listen to the LSi9s before you make the above statement. I listened to the 9s and they sounded better than $1000 towers from PSB, JMLab, Paradigm and Polk.

Frank Z

This thread is 5 months old!!!!

saucyknave

5 months old indeed, but I've still done nothing yet. Life sometimes gets in the way of life. My son and his family are STILL living with me and I don't want any toddler fingers all over my rig. (They are rehabbing that house at super-slow speed!)

By the time I actually start buying equipment, there'll be all sorts of new stuff out there! And I'll need more advice.