LSI series and Denon 3805 - Advice Needed

tjmaxwell

I'm a complete newbie to audio equipment, so I'm hoping you guys can help me. I was all excited about my purchase of Polk LSI15 front speakers, LSI7 surrounds, LSIC Center, a Polk subwoofer, and a Denon AVR-3805 receiver. I came here and started reading this topic and have really gotten worried. Apparently, I'm going to need a separate amp for this all to work properly. First off, can someone explain in layman's terms what an amp does and why it's required in this situation?

Now, I pretty much overspent my budget to begin with on this setup, and don't have money for much else. This being said, should I get different speakers? A different receiver? Is there a really inexpensive amp (~$200) out there that would still do my setup justice? On the recommendation of the members of the aforementioned thread, I researched the Outlaw 7100 amp, but the thought of spending another $900 just to power my speakers seems absolutely ludacris. As I said, I know nothing about this stuff though, so maybe I'm missing something. All I know is I heard the LSI15s in a dealer that presumably wasn't using an AMP and thought they sounded terrific. I got an unbelievable deal on the speaker package, and from what I hear, they are excellent. But now I come here and read this. What do you suggest I do?

Dr. Spec

The LSi series has a low impedance (4 ohms or lower).

A low impedance draws more current from the amplifier for a given sound pressure level. The RTi series has a higher impedance (8 ohms) and is easier to "drive" by the typical AVR amp stage.

The 3805 (great AVR BTW) is not designed to power 4 ohm speakers. It has limited current capability, and will tend to run hot and possibly shut down running a full 5.1 or 7.1 LSi rig.

The LSi need lots of high current power to sound their best. NAD, Adcom, Carver, Rotel, B&K, Parasound, Outlaw, etc.

The 3805 with the 8 band auto PEQ is a steal even as a pre/pro. It is very sophisticated and has a very high grade front end. You could pair it up with a 5 or 7 channel HT amp, or you could buy three Outlaw M200 monoblocks for the front stage and the 3805 will probably handle the 7's as side surrounds without much problem, seeing as the sides get limited action.

Mazeroth

Check out this thread I started at AVSforum.com. It showcases a killer amp for a killer price.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?threadid=418666

I'd honestly say your best bet would be to get rid of that Denon, which is expensive, and get a nice but inexpensive receiver/processor that has full amplifier outputs, like my Harman Kardon AVR230 (which I LOVE). Then you're going to need to get a nice amplifier, and if you don't like the idea of running pro amps like I have, I'd check out the Outlaw 7100. It's a 7-channel and so you can use 2 channels of amplification per LSi15 and 1 channel per surround and center. You should be able to pick up an HK AVR230 off Ebay for under $300 and the amp is $900 I think, probably the price of your Denon and this will actually do your LSis justice.

Hope this helps!
GREAT SPEAKER SELECTION, BY THE WAY!

Sami

You could definately need more power for those 15's. Crown and Samson have some cheap amps (amplifiers, as in amplifying sound). For less than $300 you could get something quite powerful to bi-amp the lows (search the forums for more info on bi-amping).

cfrizz

You have a terrific system! All I would do for right now is play the system you have, keep in mind that the receiver can't handle the load at very high volumes for an extended period of time so don't push it. Save your money, and start browsing web sites including this one for used or B-stock amps. I got my Parasound 1500A amp from AudioAdvisor.com for 687.00 original price 999.00

The gang here is always getting rid of gear, so come back often and check the Flea Market. I got my Outlaw Mono Block amp for my center channel, and I just got a pair of FXi3 speakers all from Polks flea market.

Everyone here takes excellent care of their equipment on this board and the gear I bought was in like new condition.

So start saving your money, enjoy your new system and purchase your amps when you come across a good deal.

Welcome to the board TJ!

Cathy

tjmaxwell

Wow, quick responses around here, and I appreciate all of them. I'll probably never be "cranking" the volume on these. They'll be used for movies and music, but I'm not one to listen to really loud music. This being said, will I be okay? To me, I'm spending a load of money on this setup and I'd like to get the most out of it. That said, I just don't have much money to be buying more stuff. Is an amp absolutely essential for my setup and listening requirements? I chose the Denon receiver because it has all the cinema modes, and three component inputs. I also considered the Yamaha 1400 and 2400 models. Would I be better off with one of those? Would an amp still be required? Sorry for being a nooB and thanks again for the help.

Sami

Those LSi's like when they are being played loud. That is where you will notice a lot of difference compared against f.e. RTi lineup. You might notice yourself increasing the volume, more and more each day. I know I said I will not play my music or movies loud, now I'm in trouble with my neighbours (and I live in a house).

I have no problem powering five LSi7's with H/K AVR7200 but it does have a nice power supply (75A HCC per 7 channels), not sure how the Denon racks up.

That is a great speaker setup especially for someone who is just getting into audio. Like cfrizz said, play it for now. When you get some extra cash add an amp to the setup to power the 15's. Your weakest link is the subwoofer, you might want to return that and consider something else (HSU STF-2 is highly regarded and around $350). Which sub is it anyway?

If you don't mind me asking, how much did you pay?

tjmaxwell

I got the LSI15's for $288 each (open box, but in new condition). The LSIC was $500 (had to pay full price for that since it was a special order from my local retailer). The LSI7s were $175 each, and I got the Polk PSW650 subwoofer for around $250 (also open box). From what I've read, this is a killer deal. When you say my subwoofer is the "weakest link" do you mean I chose a bad subwoofer? I'm confused by that statement. I know it's not LSI series, but I wasn't willing to spend $1000 on a sub.

If I were to buy one of those Crown amps that was mentioned elsewhere in this topic would solve my problems? I found one of those on eBay for like $230. I could afford that right now, but if it's not worth my time, I won't bother. Is it difficult to hook these components up? I'm using a 5.1 system for now, and don't have any immediate plans to go to 7.1. Continued advice is appreciated!

Early B.

Hold onto what you have right now and enjoy it. Don't buy a cheap amp because you may end up regretting it. Simply save your money and purchase a decent 2-channel, 200 wpc amp later on for the 15's. You can get a good used amp for $400 - $500.

You've made excellent purchases, so don't worry about it.

cfrizz

TJ, you got a killer deal & then some. You would be crazy to give it up. As for the sub, these guys aren't happy unless the walls are threatening to cave in! Unless you are one of those, your sub is probably just fine.

Right now because your speakers (fronts & center) are not getting all of the power they can handle, they are not working to their full potential. As an example, my Polk RTA 8T's are 14 yrs old. They were first powered by a Rotel 50 watt amplifier, then by my Denon 3802 110 WPC receiver. I thought they sounded just fine.

My Polks can handle up to 250 watts, when I powered them by themselves with my Parasound amp which gives them 205 Watts I was suddenly hearing details off of my cd's that I never heard before or were so muddled I didn't know they were there. It was an ear openning experience. I can now crank them & get the full detail of the music.

Like I said before, Don't listen at insane volumes for right now, but just start saving your money and get either a 2 channel amp to power the LSI 15's & a mono block for the center Or a 3 channel for all three, or 3 mono blocks. The Denon can handle the surrounds & sub just fine. As you can see you have a lot of flexibility. Check out Outlaw.com for the mono's.

Make sure you get amps that gives as close to the maximum watts that the speakers can handle.

Feel free to keep asking questions, and keep us posted!

Cathy

Sami

That's a great deal on those LSi15's, I wouldn't give them up. (unless you want to sell them to me )

I didn't want to pay the price of a LSiC so I purchased 3 pairs of LSi7's for my surround setup. I like them much better than my RTi's. Again, you have an awesome speaker setup there.

Airplay355

keep your sub, for $250 you won't be able to find any better. hook up your setup, watch a movie, and then see how your receivers does. if it shuts down or gets really hot ( too hot to touch) then you NEED an amp. if not, then sit back, relax and enjoy the movie, then when u have enough cash, buy an amp. your lsi's will sound even better.

Frank Z

Originally posted by tjmaxwell
I researched the Outlaw 7100 amp, but the thought of spending another $900 just to power my speakers seems absolutely ludacris. As I said, I know nothing about this stuff though, so maybe I'm missing something...........What do you suggest I do?

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/idealbb/view.asp?mode=viewtopic&topicID=32839&num=20&sessionID=8463796B50894CE3ADFD3D2C02300929&pageNo=1

fireshoes

Great deal! Keep it and sometime down the road add an amplifier. You'll love it now and love it even more when you add the amp.

Dr. Spec

Wow - really good link, Frank.

QUOTE

I have listed the following in order of performance -
1. 3805 w/ 7100 amp
2. 950B / 7100 combo
3. 3805

Denon 3805 / Outlaw Audio 7100 amp - The best of both worlds. The tonal balance of the 3805 with the power of the 7100 amp was a great combination but definitely expensive.

QUOTE

Even I was a bit surprised he ranked the 3805 w/ external amp over the Outlaw pre/pro. Regardless, it supports my original statement in this thread that the front end on late model Denon AVRs is damn good.

I guess Denon includes those pre-outs for a reason.....:o

tjmaxwell

Okay, I really don't know what to do now. After starting this topic yesterday, I called up the salesperson who sold me the speaker system and asked him about this issue. He also happens to be a friend of mine and would definitely not try to mislead me. He basically said that while having an extra amp would possibly improve the sound quality somewhat, the Denon 3805 should be more than sufficient for watching movies and listening to music at moderate levels. I hung up feeling better about the situation.

Today, I've been searching these forums all day and reading topics about this, and I haven't found a single post that says the Denon will drive these speakers properly. It seems that it would work, but the sound quality would be mediocre at best with this setup. So, I'm now back in the same boat as yesterday.

My problem is this: a few months ago, I decided I was going to build a home theater for my basement. At the time, I thought I'd go with:

Infocus X1 projector - $800
DaLite Pulldown Screen - $150
Onkyo HTIB - $450
Cables/Speaker Stands/Audio Rack - $250
Total - $1650

Predictably, after tons of research and shopping, I ended up with:

Sharp XV-Z200 Projector - $3500
Draper 106" Motorized Screen - $960
Bell'o AV Rack - $700
Denon AVR-3805 Receiver - $1050
Polk LSI 5.1 Speaker Setup w/Sub - $1850
Monster Power Center - $250
Cables/Speaker Stands/Installation - $600
Total - $8910

So, as you can see, my budget stretched quite a bit. In fact, thinking about it makes me queesy now. Thank God for no interest financing. I kept telling myself that I didn't need all the power of the Polk Speakers, but the price on them was just so lucrative. Now I read that I need to spend even more to make the most out of them. Looking at it from my perspective, and considering how great of a deal I got on the speakers, what should I do? Should I downgrade the speakers? I finally thought I'd worked everything out. Apparently not...

Frank Z

Outlaw 950/7100 combo

http://www.outlawaudio.com/home.html

amulford

Frank's got a good IDEAR, If you don't want to buy an amp outright, sell the denon and get the combo. You will have to spend alittle more, but IMHO it would be worth the satifaction. Believe me from personal experience, you CAN FRY that Denon with a four ohm load if you (or someone who doesn't know) aren't careful!!!

cfrizz

TJ, you have a terrific system. Let your own ears and common sense be the judge. Use these boards as another source of information, not as gospel. Use your equipment at the levels that you normally would listen at, and check how hot the receiver gets.
If you can touch it & it doesn't go into protect mode and shut down, you're fine.

Then sometime in the future you can add a separate amp so that you can get the most out of your speakers.

In the meantime sit back, relax, and enjoy your terrific system. I would love to have one as fine as what you have.

HBombToo

Originally posted by cfrizz
As for the sub, these guys aren't happy unless the walls are threatening to cave in! Unless you are one of those, your sub is probably just fine.
Cathy

who might you be referring to Ms. Friz?;)

HBomb

tjmaxwell

Alright, well, I want to do this right the first time, so I think I'll spring for an amp. It seems like the Outlaw 7100 would be the best choice, but is there anything out there that's a little cheaper that would do well? I think I may keep the Denon receiver, or maybe downgrade to something a little cheaper since a lot of the load will be removed from it. I wasn't able to find any used Outlaw 7100s for sale, and I'm cringing at the thought of paying $900 for it. Any other suggestions?

cfrizz

Originally posted by tjmaxwell
Alright, well, I want to do this right the first time, so I think I'll spring for an amp. It seems like the Outlaw 7100 would be the best choice, but is there anything out there that's a little cheaper that would do well? I think I may keep the Denon receiver, or maybe downgrade to something a little cheaper since a lot of the load will be removed from it. I wasn't able to find any used Outlaw 7100s for sale, and I'm cringing at the thought of paying $900 for it. Any other suggestions?

TJ. Check out this site, it sell refurbished Denon's at reduced prices with manufacturers warranties.

www.dakmart.com

cfrizz

Originally posted by HBombToo


who might you be referring to Ms. Friz?;)

HBomb

I don't know Mr. BombToo, probably everyone except ME!:D
Have you gotten your SVS yet????

Dr. Spec

Have you gotten your SVS yet????

Ah, hell - Henry's got TWO SVS'.

"Caged elephants" I think is the term he uses? :cool:

cfrizz

Originally posted by Dr. Spec
Ah, hell - Henry's got TWO SVS'.

"Caged elephants" I think is the term he uses? :cool:

LOL leave it to Henry to be greedy!:D

tjmaxwell

Okay, I just got off the phone with my dealer. They have an Adcom package that includes the GFA-7400 amp with a GTP-830 preamp for $1500 -- about $400 more than I paid for my Denon receiver with the microphone. Would this be a much better solution for these speakers? Would it be better than going with the Denon and getting the Outlaw 7100? Advice would be appreciated. Thanks!

cfrizz

Will you be able to trade in the Denon to upgrade to the Adcoms?
If so, I would suggest you go in and bring some of your favorite music that you know real well, and listen to them. If you like the sound that they produce as well as you like the way the Denon produces the sound, then yes make the switch. You will be going to true separates with far better power.

You might also want to have him hook up the Denon to the Adcom amp to see how you like that. That way you get to keep all of the flexibility of the Denon and get the more powerful amp to drive your speakers.

Good luck & let us know what you decide.

tjmaxwell

Ah, if only it were that easy. Unfortunately, I'm working with two different dealers here. One has the Adcom equipment, one has the Denon equipment. To top things off, no store has the LSI15s to demo and none of them have the whole setup that I bought on display. Basically, there's no way for me to listen to the LSI setup I bought all together.

As far as swapping things out, that's no problem since I haven't picked up any equipment yet. I could cancel the Denon at the one store and buy the Adcom package from the other.

cfrizz

Oh I thought you already had the Denon as well as the rest of the equipment.

In this case if it were me, I would go for the Adcom deal. What's most important here is to have all the power you need to drive your outstanding speakers! :cool:

cfrizz

I just went to Audioreview.com and looked at the reviews for the Adcom products. I would suggest that you do the same. While the amp seems top notch, I'm not so sure about the pre-amp.

Check out the 2 links below.

http://www.audioreview.com/A-V+Preamplifier/Adcom/PRD_128672_2719crx.aspx

http://www.audioreview.com/Amplifiers/Adcom/PRD_115538_1583crx.aspx

HBombToo

I have owned the 770 for about 3 years now and it is a bad ****!

By the way Doc, check out the DF of this bad boy!
HBomb


*******************************************
Model 770 Technical Specifications
Power output: 200 watts RMS x 7 (all channels driven simultaneously into 8 ohms from 20 Hz to 20 kHz with less than 0.05% total harmonic distortion). 300 watts RMS x 7 @ 4 ohms

S/N: 119 dB

Power Bandwidth: 5 Hz - over 100 kHz (+0/-3 dB)

Damping factor: 850 (10 Hz - 400 Hz)

Input sensitivity/Impedance: 1.43 volts for full output/28 k ohms

Crosstalk: Greater than -90 dB from 20 Hz to 20 KHz

Gain: Voltage gain of 28 dB

Slew rate: 50 Volts/microsecond

Remote Trigger voltage: 3 - 32 volts DC

Power requirements: 115 V 50-60 Hz

Power consumption: 1,800 watts (maximum)

Dimensions (W x H x D): 17.2 x 7.75 with feet x 18 (inches)

Weight: 90 (lbs)

********************************************