Classical help Please!

Oldwriter

Yo - Rick and Bikezappa - here goes. Since the concerto was well-known to me - and longer than, say, a pop song - I began to experiment.
Back and forth with FM "flat" and speakers "flat." Then, keeping FM flat - I reduced CD treble by 2 db - back and forth.
Then, CD treble by 4 db - back and forth.
Then, CD treble down 4 db, bass up 2 db - back and forth.

Don't know why I didn't change the FM settings - but I felt it sounded fairly good - so I left it. Maybe should have boosted the FM treble by a couple of db, also? Too late, now, friends!

Anyway - the FM sound was richer, fuller, and while the top notes came through fine, there was none of the "shrillness" that I often experience with CDs in the player. The CD sounds, well,"flat" in the mid-range - while on the FM version, the mid-range had a warmer feel to it. Can't address "sound stage," as I'm not sure what you're referring to.
Am I explaining this so that I make any sense at all? Hope so. Probably won't get another, similar, comparison-chance soon, but am looking for same, should it happen. Now - I've got to get my hands on a better player - to see IF that's the problem.
I do know that the sound "cleaned up" when I switched from optical digital to coax digital.
More to come - with THANKS to you all! Larry R.

gregure

This brings up an interesting point. I've often found that classical can sometimes sound better on FM than on CD. Literally, I will have the same recording on disc, but when I hear it on FM it sounds a little different, sometimes even better. I think this tends to happen because mids are clearer, highs are less harsh, and overall detail comes through very well. However, there are times when FM is not better, and I've never heard an FM broadcast that even comes close the fullness in the bass frequencies as a CD. I'm a bass fiend, so I still prefer CD's overall, but it is interesting, especially with classical, to notice the difference in sound qualities between a CD and FM broadcasts of the same recording. I think I'm going to try and save up for one of those ARCAM receivers to see what all the fuss is about. We'll see if the soundstage is really that improved. I'm hopeful, given the reviews I've read.

Oldwriter

Well, now - glad to read that I'm not alone in my listening madness! GRIN Thanks, Greg, for the posting. I go back to what my nutzy recording engineer-friend? said this week: "You really need to hook up a multi-stage equalizer - then tweak by boosting various mid-range values." Yep, guess that would help? But it also means getting yet another piece of gear - and I'd rather see if I can solve this problem with, perhaps, a new player.
I see to my amazement that my "regular 44.1-sampling" player is way, way behind most others on the market - many of which have 24-bit 192-kHz sampling rates. From what you all have told me - over-sampling, up-sampling, or variations thereof, make a lot of difference. Makes sense!
So - NEXT time around I'll be getting a much-better player (read that "more expensive!" GRIN).
Saving up - that's the thing to do, isn't it? Yep! Larry R.

phoneisbusy

Oldwriter,

Just curious, does the Onkyo have a cd direct or bypass switch? I noticed that my cd's sounded flat and a bit lifeless until I figured out the settings on the pioneer. The direct or bypass setting bypassed the reciever's dsp section and more or less feeds the cd signal to amplifier. Made a difference for me. Might not solve all your problems but something else to look into?

regards

Dave

Oldwriter

Yep - Onkyo has "CD Direct" and "Pure" audio feed-through, knocking off all extra sections of the receiver. BUT when I try to play my CDs this way - they sound very shrill and shallow. I quickly went back to the "controlled" sound, with tone-controls. Sigh.
Just accessed JVCs web site, where they claim 192 kHz/24-bit audio D/A converter - but in my owner manual, all it says is that CDs have 44.1kHz sampling - nothing about the faster mode. I'm confused! Larry R.

phoneisbusy

Oldwriter,

Have you tried the analog outputs on the CD player? The 192 kHz/24 bit is the max resolution that the receiver can handle. The receiver will decode the cd at 44.1 kHz. It may well be that the d/a chip may not be up to snuff wrt CD's.

regards

Dave

Oldwriter

Well - now I must ask: does this 192kHz/24-bit audio D/A converter have anything to do with over-sampling? Or is it just something that happens within the CD player - and then only if I use analog-outputs? I guess trying to teach a guy who is into 18th century music all about 21st century electronics just doesn't cut it. Sigh. Can y'all help me here? Thanx - Larry R.

F1nut

The FM broadcasts are compressed, there by making the mid-range sound fuller.

Oldwriter

Thanks, F1nut - for reminding me of what I knew - about the compression, I mean. Of course. . . fuller mid-range. Now, how to get that "warm" sound out of my CD player? Nearest I've come so far is to boost bass by 2-4 db, and knock down treble about 4 db. Still not satisfied - using digital coax cable output.
I'm getting messages that the CD player's DAC only works on analog output, and not digital output?
From what I read, the Philips, et al, have up-sampling that works on both digital output and analog - unless I'm reading it all wrong.
Just confused - but after a long day of reading, finally figgered out that my CD player's "192kHz/24-bit audio D/A converter" does NOT do over-sampling. It only accepts sampling up to its maximum speed. Well, then, the CD player's DAC for analog output is equivalent to the Onkyo's DAC on digital input. Right?
Still need a better playback unit!!! Thank you so much. Larry R.

gregure

Well Larry, since you are going to be getting a SACD player in the near future, I would say to allay your worries and start finding a good player. However, on the ARCAM site, I read a lenghty argument in favor of DVD-Audio as opposed to SACD. They feel the sound is better, they are more versatile, as you can even play them in the car, and they will become more prevalent in the coming months. I read this the other day, but now looking over the site, I cannot for the life of me the link to that article, otherwise I would post it for you.
Greg

bikezappa

This just doesn't make any sense to me. I love listening to FM. I can get live BSO broadcasts from boston on Friday afternoon and the sound is NEVER as good as any cd player. I have spent much time and money with tuners and large FM antenna. FM always loses. FM always has hiss and a closed in feeling even when campared to a $80 CD player.

Maybe I should buy your FM tuner. What is it?

I would try a second CD player. Anything. It may be broken.

Well you have solved your problem-the CD player is the culprit.

If the source is bad then nothing can fix it down the line of equipment. What does your recording friend say?

Rejoice.

Oldwriter

Yo - Gregure and Bikezappa - furstest - got the Arcam site, and I disagree with them - they have a vested interest in the DVD-audio, BTW - investment, etc. As to the FM - well, I have a hi-gain antenna, and get a good classical station without hiss, and with great sound. Never "closed in" so I find it quite nice to listen to them. Also get FM on the Internet, which is "piped in" to the stereo.
Yes, my cyber-friends - I think I've zeroed in on the largest problem - the CD player. The liddle JVC got SUCH good ratings, but then, I wonder - what kind of music do those "raters" listen to? Maybe not 18th-century stuff, as I do? And opera? Doubtful.
I've learned a lot from all of you - for which I'm very grateful. Am still learning - and will post whenever something of note happens to me or my gear. Next stop - a SACD player - but not until the fall, and probably October. After that - a subwoofer. After that - well, there's always Chapter 11!!! GRIN Larry R.

bikezappa

Borrow anybodys cd player or go to CC and buy any $100 cd player and see what happens. You can always return the CD player. This test may answer your first question to this forum.

If the other CD player solves the problem, end of story. We are Happy. If not then it's the amp or speakers or the dreaded wire thing.

scottnbnj

maybe the reason cambridge and fm sound better is that the extreme high and low frequencies are not rolled off as gradually as polks and cd. the problem tunes could have alot of demanding info at the extremes that cause distortion that extends to the less extreme frequencies.

if this is the problem your friend's idea of a graphic eq might help by allowing you to cut the extreme high's and lows. this might not be the best or cheapest way to ease the problem, but it would help. maybe someone else can help with better and/or cheaper ways to accomplish the same thing.

also, if your rti's are set to large on the onk, try them set to small and see if it helps. or ~maybe~ if they are already set to small, you could set them to large and see if it intensifies or amplifies the mid/bass problems with the problem cds but leaves non-problem tunes ok,.. then you'd have a better idea whether this is really what's going on, at least with the mid/bass driver.

)

bikezappa

Your are right Scottnbn, but it sounds a little like censorship. We want all the frequencies. Broken CD player. They all can break.

mrmusicman

Oldwriter,
I was having the same issues with my system(different music though),and I decided to change my cd/dvd player which was a $100.00 sony,with a denon 2200 universal,which solved my harsh and brightness issues,it was like night and day.After I had the 2200 for about 2 weeks the power button was giving me problems ,so I returned it and demo the dennon 2900 which was about 300 more than the 2200.The 2200 would be a good unit for you to check out,the prices should be starting starting to drop.Demo one and see if it solves your problems'if not return it.

Mike

PolkWannabie

and if you like Onk's they too have a very nice Universal player

Oldwriter

Well, thank you all very much! I think that I have a couple of problems here - first, perhaps a JVC unit that simply doesn't do very well with the type of music I listen to a lot - heavy strings in orchestral, and opera - which, even if you don't listen to it a lot, you must realize takes a lot of "oomph" to make it "realistic."
So - will hy myself over to CC or some other nearby emporium of aural pain - and grab the bestest that I can find. Try it out, as you so wisely say, then return it. Waiting for SACD, after all!
At least this will give me an idea as to whether the player is the problem - or whether I've got something else happening here.
Hey - I appreciate the wealth of info I get from y'all - and I thank you very much. Now - I've gotta get out and work on the problem! Will let all know on the forum- - - Larry R.

scottnbnj

Originally posted by bikezappa
Your are right Scottnbn, but it sounds a little like censorship. We want all the frequencies. Broken CD player. They all can break.

hehe,.. we better not talk about it then.

)

jefft1314

Here's my suggestion for what it's worth. Head over to Bestbuy and pick up the toshiba sd-3960 and some reasonably priced analog audio cables while you're there. The toshiba has been raved about and I do have one with some simple monster interconnects hooked up and I love it, though I'm no audiophile... yet. Should come out to under a hundred bucks, if it sounds good, keep it, if it doesn't sound good, try the analog cables with the jvc, if that doesn't sound good then... i don't know what to tell you. I know I've listened to the RTI6's with classical music through an Onkyo 502 and I enjoyed it quite a bit, though your ears are almost certainly more trained than mine.

Oldwriter

Thanks for the comments and ideas - I do have new cables coming from the place I really like: Blue Jeans Cables. Have the analog cables - and - for whenever I get the SACD player, the six-pak of cables for that - plus a 12-foot subwoofer cable. All this to save some shipping charge - and looking ahead to the future.
Will audition the Toshiba, though I've read quite a few "downer" reviews on such places as Amazon.com. Heck, it's worth a try - and might be better than my JVC XV-N55SL.
Appreciate your thoughts - Larry R.

jefft1314

Well those bad reviews from Amazon were pretty much about it's build quality and picture quality, but we aren't concerened with whether or not the picture is good on it, and we know that the build quality is awful. (It really is that bad) The point of contention is, and something i'm actually pretty interested in is whether or not you think it sounds good.

Oldwriter

. . .I see your point on "sounding good." But (putting tongue firmly in cheek) if it DOES sound good, then I might keep it and hate the build quality and make life miserable for my long-suffering wife! No. . . but I shall take your advice and give the unit a whirl. Thanks - LR

gregure

Ok Larry, my reading is paying off. The Perfect Vision reported a Sony CD/DVD/SACD player coming out in September. They think very highly of the unit, as it sounds and looks great. In fact, I think it is the only unit in its price range to offer HDMI/DVI hookup for HDTV signal upgrade. The unti will be $300 and the model number is DVP-NS975V. You may want to check it out on the sony website. Hope that will give you something to look forward to testing out.

gregure

PS. I'm sure that Sony unit could be found for less than $300 on some of the more price-friendly websites we've been using.

jmierzur

Oldwriter,

I quickly skimmed all the posts in the thread. Most of the comments appear to be related to hardware. I do not recall any mention of your room setup, inquiries on speaker placement or problems with acoustics (tile floor, bare walls, etc.) of the room.

Where are your speakers? Are they stuffed in a bookcase? Are they placed in the corners of the room? Are they set up for 'visual' appeal? More information is required for any meaningful response.

My first suggestion would be to leave the tone controls flat for several weeks. Use this time to experiment with the speaker placement within the room. Since you appear to enjoy music, you may also wish to adjust the room furnishing to accommodate speaker placement.

This link is a starting point for speaker placement. Have a look and see if this can help. You should be able to get acceptable sound quality from the system you have. There are many additional methodologies for speaker placement. You may wish to try any of these methods. The forum should be able to provide additional links to methods.

Once again, experiment with the speaker/room setup. This interaction is critical for the reproduction of sound. Expensive equipment will not sound 'right' if not properly placed in the room.

Edit

1) fixed link.

Oldwriter

With thanks, Greg - for your time and patience. I'll look up the player soon as I get off the line here. I'm told that many companies will be bringing new DVD/SACD players to market this fall - guess they're finally deciding that people are buying discs, and thus players! This is, of course, very good news for the likes of us who love great-sounding music!
Will post results from analog cables when they get here - and will TRY to figure out how to hook CD player to analog and DVD player (same unit, unnerstand) to the digital inputs of the 701. With all the help I'm getting here - should be a piece of cake, unless . . . tzzzzzzzzzzzzzzp - Whop! Hmmm. . .
Hope all is going well with you - thanks - Larry R.

Oldwriter

Got your message, too - and have already done a lot of speaker moving-about - doesn't seem to make much difference, though. I'm in a living room with carpeted floor and drywall, well, Walls hung with many kinds of artwork - some glass-front pics, some hanging rugs - a LOT of art in this house!
No - don't think the speaker/furniture placement is an issue here - but good ideas from you, with thanks! Larry R.

Oldwriter

As I've posted on my other thread - up-sampling in electronics - my wife and I did a rather long A-B test tonight with analog and digital outputs from the JVC CD/DVD to the Onkyo 701. Sigh. REally, guys, we could not hear any difference - though we THOUGHT the analog sound was at times a bit "sweeter." Too subjective to make any claims, though.
Will do some more listening Wednesday morning - and then see if we can hear any differences.
While I knew which output was in use - my wife, for the most part, did not - and, as usual, I did my little tricky "well, it was the same output both times" act. Etc. Etc.
I bow to youze guyz and your sensitive ears! Still dealing with less-than-great sound - and I'll just take it a step at a time. This week - a borrowed CD player and some more wire-changes, along with moving speakers around the room a bit.
Dynamite, anyone????? GRIN Thanks to all - - Larry R.