Classical help Please!

Oldwriter

Yo - now that my RTi6 speakers are "broken in" and working well, I've got a nagging problem. I listen to mainly classical music and opera (OK - I know that I'm weird and a minority!! GRIN) and the speakers just don't sound "natural."
The mid and upper-mid range seems flat and "dead" - though I try tweaking with tone controls, it only helps a little. I find that by boosting bass 2 or 3 db and knocking down treble the same, I get better balance. I know - shouldn't haffta do dat!
Any ideas on this? Hoping that somebody else in the world listens to my kind of esoteric music! THANX! Larry R.

phoneisbusy

Hi Oldwriter,

What sort of equipment do you have? Interconnects? I found a change of interconnects can have help with the mid and upper ranges that you find lacking (i.e. see the cable demo being administered by Doro).

regards

Dave

Oldwriter

Yo - Dave - I've got the Onkyo 701 receiver, Polk RTi6s, and a JVC XV-N55LS DVD/CD (new) player. Blue Jeans digital coax between CD and receiver, Blue Jeans 10-AWG (Belden) speaker wires. I've tried all sorts of cable changes - this one "sounds" the best, within my budget. Even borrowed a "silver serpent" coax, but didn't sound any different.
The Polks are wunnerful for more "modern" music - jazz, etc., but don't sound "full" on orchestral and opera. Sigh. Larry R

PolkWannabie

Larry,

Unfortunately for you, classical music and to an even greater extent imho opera will test the mid and upper range reproductions of a rigs components to a fuller extent than any other types of music with the possible exception of some jazz.

Apparently you too have a very discerning ear for what sounds good and what doesn't or what just isn't quite there.

When you took your cd's down to the local audio places to audition a variety of receivers etc. I thought you had been listening to RTi6's as well, was that not the case ? did you not notice this with the Onk or RTi6's at the time or was there some other different component in the line between source and speakers or did you possibly just not have enough listening time in your auditioning to come to the same realization.

I too have an Onkyo receiver that I use in a secondary set up and while I think it is good at what it does I would also say it tends to be a little on the bright side and this is what you may be noticing. You may also not be totally in love with the tweeters reproduction in the RTi6's.

If you've tried a variety of decent interconnects and speaker cables and you've heard the source material on rigs where it sounded exactly as you wanted it to then that pretty much leaves the player, receiver and speakers themselves with the most likely candidates imho being the receiver or the speakers.

I think if I were you at this juncture I would try auditioning the LSi 7's, 9's, 15's with the same equipment upstream to see if one or more in that series solves the problem of what you expect to hear as the LSi's imho are more capable in the upper frequencies.

If that doesn't fill the bill then I would try auditioning several preamp and amp combinations with the rest of your gear to see what effect that has.

One or possibly both of these changes MIGHT be needed to get you to audio nirvana.

Oldwriter

Yo - Rick - et al - nice touch, with that "audio nirvana!" Don't think I'll get there in this life - but. . .
In answer to your questions - yes, I did audition the RTi6s, but with Denon, not Onkyo, gear. They did, indeed, lack something in mid-range, but I was in a retail "listening room," and the acoustics were, as you might guess, different than "home."
Agree with what you say - and yet I didn't really like (gasp!!) the sound of the LSi series - believe it or not! Plus, with their 4 ohms, they put a lot of strain on a receiver such as mine. In fact, on the back of the Onkyo, it says: "do not use this receiver with speakers of less than 6 ohms!" Maybe the Onk-police would come out?? Hmmm. . .
So - my options are to try to tweak the tone controls - which I don't mind doing (not a purist!) if it will mean better sound. And yes, I am blessed/cursed with hearing that makes me wince whenever a singer is a bit off-key, or a violinist is out of tune. Long musical history, which means that I've been immersed in it since childhood.
OK - next steps - tweak tone controls - get new SACD player this fall - and hope I win the lottery so I can get a pair of B & W 704s - far outside of my budget now. Thanks - Larry R.

gregure

Larry,
Sorry to hear you are still having problems. I think for gents like us the problem is always going to be there, as we seek to upgrade little by little over the years. I was just reading the latest issue of "The Perfect Vision" an audiophile magazine. Some of the stuff in there would blow you away. Their top rated, money means nothing system was around $200,000. This included the Krell LAT speaker system, which looks very nice indeed. The speakers alone cost nearly $100,000. The subwoofer with that system was amazing, two 15" woofers that are still 120 db strong at 20Hz. Not sure how it stacks up to SVS, but it looked great. Anyway, I think that until we have that kind of money, there will always be little nagging problems. Nothing wrong with tweaking the treble/bass controls a bit. Onkyo can't account for everyone's taste when they set their nominal controls. I noticed you're still using the digital coax to listen to music. You may want to try, if you haven't yet, a pair of good analogues. I don't notice too much of a difference myself, although it did seem to be a bit cleaner with analogues. Those aren't very expensive. Also, I think it will help free up your mids/highs a little were you to get a subwoofer to handle the low end. Would be less strain on the 701 as well. I know, I know, it all costs money. Hope you find a happy medium given your budget contraints.
Greg

Oldwriter

Yo - and welcome back, Greg! Yes, I DO understand that with my budget I cannot expect to get gold performance out of tin components. sigh. It was ever thus.
I'm rather fascinated, though, by what I'm hearing from several of you - that the Onkyo is rather "bright." Hmmm. . . that would lead me to attenuate the treble, for sure - given the extra brightness in "regular" CDs. Will try for 4 db down - just to see what it brings.
Yep - for SURE a subwoofer will help - and that will probably come around the first of the year. First - a new SACD player - most likely whatever follows the Philips 963, which is being phased out this summer - already off the catalog in several Online shops.
Welcome comments from all - good to know that I can come here to the Polk Forum and get solid information!
Many thanks - Larry R.

PolkWannabie

Larry,

hmmm ... Onk's 801 has no such statement regarding 6 ohm limitations with it and I guess I'm somewhat surprised by that statement in connection with the 701.

If you were a little closer I'd let you borrow my LS90's and/or CRS+'s to see if they did anything for you ... Ever come up to the northeast ?

Oldwriter

Yo - guess your 801 has just enough extra "beef" to run the 4-ohmers?
Sorry - don't get up your way much anymore - used to, when I was in a Washington, D.C. news bureau. Sigh - miss dat!
OK - guess I'm "on my own" until I "own" some new gear, eh? That won't come for several months - so I'll just shut up in the meantime! GRIN
Always open to new ideas - don't get me wrong! Larry R.

PolkWannabie

No need to be quiet ... I always find your posts interesting ...

If you get a chance through friends or audio dealers try demo'ing other speakers and/or receivers - preamps/amps ...

Oldwriter

Yo - as a matter of fact, I WILL have an opportunity to check out quite a bit of other gear - a good friend is building a new home a few miles from here - and will be getting a LOT of hi-end stuff late in the fall - stuff which he will be storing with me until the house is finished. So. . . looking forward to that! He'll have some of my coveted B & W 703s, some marantz gear, and we'll see what else comes my way. BTW - I get to use anything with his blessing - which is a dream for me. Especially the 703s - yum!
Larry R.

Oldwriter

Yo - that hurt! What? My beloved Onkyo is a piece of brightwork, but not a good-sounding unit! Oh, the shame of it all! How can I hold up my head? What will the neighbors think? (who cares?) And now I guess I've even got thin-sounding cables, to boot? No WONDER I can't get good sound out of my stuff!
Thanks for setting me straight! (well, sorta) GRIN Larry R.

F1nut

Did you get a receiver because it has a tuna or what? You will never get the quality of sound you're seeking from a receiver. Look at either an integrated or seperates, you'd be amazed what good clean power will do for those RTi 6's or any speaker.

Have you demoed those B&W's before? What do you like about them, I find them lifeless.

Oldwriter

. . . hope you understand my tongue-in-cheek replies. Actually, for the most part, I'm rather happy with what I've got - except for that nagging mid-range thinness/coarsness/"compressed" sound on orchestral performances - oh, yes, and opera. Sigh.
I'm sure that you all have equipment that far surprasses what I can afford - given a "retirement income" - but I try to do the best I can with what I can afford.
As I said - later this year I may get "straightened out!"

Thanks - again - Larry R.

Oldwriter

Yo - yes, I did listen to the B&Ws - but again, in an audio dealer's showroom. You are most correct that, for most people's listening, they may be too "neutral." But for "my" type of music - classical, opera - they did seem to offer a most natural sound. Triple sigh here, guys - ev-thing's SO subjective!
Oh - yes - the B & Ws were driven by 200-watt amps - can't remember the brand - which I'm sure made a difference. that's 200 watts - per channel. Couldn't afford them, either! LR

F1nut

I understand your "retirement income", but there are some very good and affordable integrated amps out there, even more so if you buy used. Have you looked at tubed integrated amps, they have lots of that magical mid range.

I do agree, this is a very subjective hobby.

Oldwriter

Well - we do play a lot of DVD movies - home theatre, yep. But much of what I do is just listen to CDs - and if you know the Onkyo settings, I listen mostly in Neo: Music - which is, I guess, one step up from Pro Logic? Sorta surround - and it does fill in the spaces for me! Sometimes I just listen in Stereo, with fronts only - depends on my mood and the music.
So - I guess my answer is - yes. GRIN Does that help you? Not sure where you're going with this, but am listening.
BTW - whilst I was away from the forum I was long-distancing with an old and self-styled insane recording engineer friend in LA. He usually chides anybody for going "toned." So I try to leave all "flat" - as far as he's concerned.
But - after hearing of my troubles, he urged me to attenuate the treble by 4 or 5 db - and boost the bass by 2 db if I think the CD is bass-shy. Quite a change for him! So - I did it. And right away, with treble down 4 db - things sounded better. Bass up - yep, for some. A bit happier now, though I know it's not THE answer! LR

PolkWannabie

Larry,

F1 brings up an interesting point here in terms of separates which is sort of along the lines that I was suggesting however not exactly what either one of us have hit on yet ...

The Onk as a PREAMP ... may well suffice at least for the time being ... Given that it has preamp outputs you may well be able to find a sound closer to what you desire by utilizing an amp for your mains ...

It's really difficult to tell if what you are suffering from in your listening environment is a result of the player, receiver(preamp, amp) or the speakers themselves but one way to find out in your listening environment would be to demo/borrow some two channel amps to drive the 6's and see if you can make the problem go away.

gregure

Larry,
You know, I've been very happy with my 701. I've got the treble turned down a bit as well, and it sounds fine. Maybe the bigger speakers (Rti 10's) make a difference, but the top half of the 10 is the same as the 6. Maybe it is a bit bright, but seeming as how this is the best setup I've ever had, I've been happy. In Pefect Vision, I saw an ad for a new receiver by ARCAM, a British company, that states that their AVR 300 will blow you away, that it promises a stable 100 watts per channel when most actually drop the watts when all channels are driven, and that it sounds as good as separates. I don't know if that is true, but the audio reviews they provide seem to attest to the superior performance. Clean, airy sound, very natural. However, the unit is $2000, which I know for you is way over budget. I'm sorry if my recommendation of the 701 has not panned out for you. Like I said, I've always been happy with my Onkyo. Although others on the forum would say that Harman Kardon is better for music, but their receivers are a bit more expensive. Again, I hope you can inch your way towards improvements over the coming months.

Oldwriter

Yo - thanks for ALL of your advice - but I'm rather happy with the Onkyo 701 - just have to tweak my way through speakers which I find don't live up to their billing - maybe. However, I'll do my darnedest to make them sing - just stay tuned!
Knocking down the treble by 4 db has helped a lot - except for such CDs as have muddied treble to begin with - sigh. Wish that all CDs had similar sound!
My "insane" friend in LA may be right - that I just have to adjust the tone controls to match my room acoustics. But what does he know - he's only been in on about 50 recording sessions that have netted millions for the artists! Hmmm. . . missed my calling, I'm afraid!
Meanwhile, will have to make do until after our August Santa Fe Opera trip - then on to more sound decisions.
I think I may be asking more of the RTi6s than they have to give - but I live in hope! Thanx all - Larry R.

scottnbnj

Originally posted by Oldwriter
Yo -... I find that by boosting bass 2 or 3 db and knocking down treble the same, I get better balance. I know - shouldn't haffta do dat!...

yo to you too. sorry things are going this way and proper perspective (iced cold cocktails) won't help.

i can't remember if we talked about how your room is set up. i'm thinking i'm starting to sound like a one note er,sally around here with chiming in on placement all the time,.. but hey if not me,.. when? or however that goes.

you might be a bit far off axis for your drivers or too far away in a large room to uh,get what they're delivering... or a bunch of other shtuff.

and, i'm not in the don't touch the tone controls/loudness camp. the day all gear sounds the same,.. i'll think about it,.. but, honestly, until all of our ears /rooms /placements /listening levels perform the same too, i doubt i'll not snigger a bit when i hear someone puffer on about how *your* good gear shouldn't need it with a straight face.

also, i don't know about ht rigs, but besides the obvious, if you set your speaks to small, do the mids/highs resolve more to your liking? you can guess where i'm going, but at least it might give you a little light at the end of the tunnel to hang for with your current gear.

and, again, i don't know about ht or the onk. maybe someone can smack me down if need be. is it possible to bi-amp fronts in stereo with unused surround channels? if so, it might be worth playing with to see if horse power is the fix.

)

Oldwriter

Yo - good points, all. Except the one about hating the hobby. No, you don't! And shouldn't! Unless you go into stamp collecting, you'll face similar issues. . . (lick, lick, lick - hmmm)
Two-channel work in progress - just to see. Meanwhile, I think that simple tone-control changes will help a lot.
Heck - starting to think the player MAY have something to do with the problem? Nah - I think the speakers have their own built-in performance characteristics - and I may be at the edge of whatever "good" they have on some CDs. Who knows?
Am "working the room" to make sure there are no standing waves, etc. - but I think not.
How can I say this with a straight face - some of the CDs sound better on my little Cambridge Soundworks speakers that I have on my computer? But they do. . . now there IS something to think about!
I hate to even CONSIDER that the Polks may not be the speakers for me - so I'll await that ultimate death sentence. Meanwhile - THANK YOU FOR THE INPUT! Larry R.

TheReaper

Originally posted by scottnbnj
and, again, i don't know about ht or the onk. maybe someone can smack me down if need be. is it possible to bi-amp fronts in stereo with unused surround channels? if so, it might be worth playing with to see if horse power is the fix.

If the onkyo 701 doesn't have a delay on zone 2, you should be able to play around bi-amping your main RTi6s.

Take the connection jumpers off the main RTi6s. Connect the Zone 2 L/R speaker outs to the lower connectors on the RTi6s (you may have to reconfigure the Onkyo 701). Connect your main L/R speaker outs to the upper connectors on the RTi6s. Then run your receiver in stereo mode with the same source going to zone 2 (I think it may automatically go to stereo when zone 2 is activated). Your mains will be the tweeters, and zone 2 will be the woofers. You can then use the main tone and relative level controls to tune the tweeter. I do not know what controls you have on zone 2 for the woofer, you will have to figure that out yourself.

organ

Hi Larry,
Sorry to hear about your problems. You're very happy with the Onkyo and it's probably better if you keep it. If you want more dynamics, especially with your operas you should check out higher efficiency speakers. They put less strain on the internal amps and will play much louder without sounding 'compressed'. I've gone through a lot of speakers and in the end I realized it was the 'lively' and 'dynamic' sound that I preferred. I saved up some money and got a pair of 98db/w/m speakers. They're being powered by a 12w/ch tube amp with no problem.

If your Onkyo have pre-outs, you can look at some powerful amps.

Maurice

Oldwriter

Good points, all - with thanks. I'm "wurkin' on it"
Let me run this by you - last night, whilst my wife was listening to FM in her studio (she's a sculptor) - I got sudden inspiration. (no, not THAT! ) I recognized a wonderful clarinet concerto by Weber, one of my favorites. Why not, I thought, put the same concerto on my stereo - only the CD, not FM, version! Raced (well, walked) over to the ole CD rack, pulled out the disc, and slid it in, then fast-forwarded to the same section.
This way, I was able to do a very fast "A-B" comparison of the CD and FM sound. Rather amazing, really!
While the FM - natch - has rolled-off highs and a diminished overall sound - the concerto sounded so much fuller and more balanced on FM than on my CD. That led me to believe that the player MIGHT BE part of the problem. Is this possible? It's a new JVC - though about the same price as the Toshiba 3960 (?) that many of you are touting. Now I've got to get hold of another player, to see if it will make a difference. Never thought much about that - thought 1s and 0s were somehow the same.
OK - please let me know your thoughts! Larry R.

PolkWannabie

Originally posted by Oldwriter
While the FM - natch - has rolled-off highs and a diminished overall sound - the concerto sounded so much fuller and more balanced on FM than on my CD. That led me to believe that the player MIGHT BE part of the problem. Is this possible?

Yes, it COULD BE ... or ... it COULD BE the CD itself.

We'd like to believe that CD's are CD's are CD's ... but they aren't always ...

Oldwriter

In this case, my friend - aha! I KNOW it was the same CD being played on FM as on my player. Same clarinetist - same CD number, read by the announcer. Unless you hint that one or the other CD might be somehow "defective?" Hmmm. . .
Still a-workin' - wid thanx! LR

PolkWannabie

I wouldn't think so ...

Too bad you couldn't get the FM broadcast of the CD on your receiver so you could AB the two sources. I would assume !? that if FM is better than CD on your rig for some given piece and the CD is known to be good then the offending component is the player or the interconnects to the receiver or both.

If you've got a decent FM classical station that will allow you to do AB's against your player than this may provide some good clues as to where to look more thoroughly. Given FM's limitations it wouldn't have initially occured to me to take this approach ...

Oldwriter

Yo - guess I failed (as usual) to be "perfectly clear." I DID receive the FM broadcast on my receiver - and thus was able to do a very quick and accurate A-B comparison. With that, the FM sound, while obviously a bit rolled-off on the top, sounded much better than the CD player. Hope that helps. LR

bikezappa

the FM sound, while obviously a bit rolled-off on the top, sounded much better than the CD player.

That sounds similar to turning the treble down 4 db.

To bad you didn't turn the treble down more on the CD sound and compared that to the FM sound.

How did the FM sound better exactlty?

PolkWannabie

My misunderstanding ... thought you were comparing to what your wife was listening to elsewhere in the house ...

By better do you mean fuller mids ? deeper soundstage ? or ?