Up-sampling Confusion

Oldwriter

Ok, you young audiophile geniuses - time to hep out an ole guy who's trying to improve his system! Please. . .
I've got new Onkyo 701 (luv it!) and Polk RTi6 mains - they're good, but unfortunately rather colorless mid-range for opera and symphonic music.
BUT - I'm using what I think is a very good CD/DVD player - a JVC XV-N55SL - upgraded from an "old" Sony.
Now I want to get a SACD player - and the Philips 963 suites me fine - EXCEPT - it's being phased out this summer, and a new model coming in September or so. . .
NOW - my question - the Philips has "up-sampling" capabilities to make (they claim) reg-lar CDs sound better. Does this work? and how can it take a digitally-recorded CD with 44.1 sampling rate and "iimprove" the sound? Can you get anything except garbage out if you put garbage in?
Your thoughts please - I need all I can get! Larry R.

F1nut

Upsampling does work. How? I don't really know, it just does.

Oldwriter

Thanks - that's (double-grin) one of the most honest replies I've gotten yet on the Polk-Folk Forum! Thanks! Larry R.

Oldwriter

Apparently the Wadia is "everyman's dream" gear? I get the impression that I shouldn't even be allowed to read their literature! G R I N
Seriously - thanks - dat helped me. But maybe the Philips up-sampling isn't as great as they claim? Sigh. I dunno. . .
Jest keepin' on a-tryin', I guess! Larry R.

Oldwriter

. . .that since Philips is one of the SACD's co-developers, they might want very much to give - oops - SELL us great players. As an electronics-amateur, I only know what I read - from the manufacturers and from you kind Polk-Folk.
Yes - I still gravitate to the Philips - but waiting until this fall, when the replacement for the 963 comes about. Larry R.

John K.

Larry, up-sampling is yet another of the many over-hyped features that we run into in audio. The description at the Wadia site under "What is up-sampling?" is accurate(except maybe the "dramatic" claim), but the same description applies to over-sampling which has been used on all players for about 20 years. Both artificially raise the sampling rate by mathematical means(which of course doesn't actually create "real" samples)so that this higher rate allows the use of gentler filters which have no harmful affect on the sound. The analysis of another manufacturer is worth reading here . Although their contention that the mathematics of up-sampling are more difficult is correct, done competently there's no problem with up-sampling. The bottom line is that 8-times over-sampling(nearly universal in players now) is more than adequate in itself and isn't anything to be concerned about.

F1nut

I found the article about upsampling from Simaudio interesting, but not surprising seeing as they don't seem to think SACD is worth much either.

Here is a quote from a independent source which I feel does a better job of explaining the differences.

"Differences in terminology between upsampling and oversampling may in part be down to semantics, but word-play doesn’t explain differences in perceived sound from ‘mathematically identical’ processes."

The link, http://www.aslgroup.com/dcs/upandover.htm

From my own experiences I have found that upsampling is much better than oversampling. In fact on my player, an upsampled and well recorded CD can sound very close to the average SACD. Something I could never say about an oversampling CD player. Over-hyped? Nah, not if you've actually heard the difference.

Oldwriter

Well - now I'm reading above my "pay grade," but still trying to understand it. Thanks to John K. and F1 - have bookmarked your attachments for further reading.
In reading the manual with my JVC, I find that for CDs, the sampling is 44.1 - and 96 for DVDs - so - guess there's no kind of up-or-over-sampling going on here! Maybe that's why I need to audition several other players? But stop! Forgot - my next unit will have to play SACDs - so that limits my comparison-shopping for now.
Will post any excursions of note - with THANKS! Larry R.

reeltrouble1

Larry,

Not sure if the player you are considering is a "universal player" capable of playing DVD-A discs, although most of my collection of high res. discs are SACD I have a few DVD-A I really enjoy also, now since you are a classical fan I believe you are really going to enjoy this technology, of course much higher sampling rates translates into greater clarity from the source but the improved bit rate does alot for the dynamics you are looking for.

Glad you are enjoying your Onk.

RT1

Oldwriter

Sigh - in the manual with my JVC XV-N55SL - it says that CDs are sampled at 44.1 kHz - but when I went onto the main JVC web site, the product description says it has "192 kHz/24-bit audio D/A converter. Not in my manual, it doesn't say that!
So - is THIS up-sampling - or something to do with using the player with analog outputs instead of the digital output? I read all the "glories" of over-sampling or up-sampling (thanks for the articles, guys!) - but - I still don't think my little JVC DOES have up-sampling!
If anybody wants to go onto the JVC site and read about my unit, I'd sure be happy for the un-scrambling of my brain!
Many thanks - again! Larry R.
PS - my next unit will be something like the Philips 963.

TheReaper

The DAC is only used in the DVD player for the Analog Output, so definetly try the Analog Output. According to the XV-N55SL owners manual, it sends the original CD 44khz signal on the Digital Output.

Your digital output signals, assuming you have the digital output set to STREAM/PCM (Preference Display | AUDIO menu | DIGITAL AUDIO OUTPUT | STREAM/PCM).

XV-N55SL Appendix C: Digital output signal chart

DVD with 48/44.1 kHz, 16/20/24 bit linear PCM = 48/44.1 kHz, 16 bit, stereo linear PCM
DVD with 96 kHz, 16/22/24 bit linear PCM      = 48kHz, 16 bit, stereo linear PCM (Down sampling)
DVD with DTS                                  = DTS bitstream
DVD with Dolby Digital                        = Dolby Digital bitstream
DVD with MPEG Multichannel                    = MPEG bitstream
SVCD/Video CD/Audio CD                        = 44.1 kHz, 16 bit, stereo linear PCM
Audio CD with DTS                             = DTS bitstream
CD-R/RW with MP3/WMA                          = Linear PCM

Note: My Onkyo TXSR501 doesn't recognize an MPEG bitstream, which is the European standard DVD audio stream. In the US, the standard DVD audio stream is PCM.

Oldwriter

Thanks - I'll try the analog outputs - but my question remains: is that "192 kHz/24-bit reference dealing with real up-sampling? Or something different.
In other words - if a CD player has up-sampling or over-sampling, will that "improved" sound be transmitted through the digital outputs? Or just the analog ones.
I used to think I was well-educated! GRIN - - HAH! You folks are teaching at the graduate-school level - with my thanks. LR

tonyv1

Your DAC is capable of 24/192, but you're still only getting 16/44.1 out of your analog output. My external MSB Link DAC III has an optional card installed that generates 24/132 upsampling. The least expensive player that has upsampling I've seen is the Philips DVD963SA MSRP of $499 (it's on closeout, lots of deals).

Oldwriter

Thanks for the reply - but if I only get a true 44.1 sampling, what does the "192 kHz/24-bit" actually mean? It must do SOMETHING?
did you mean to write that I only get 44.1 sampling in ANALOG, or did you mean DIGITAL?
I remain in audiophile kindergarten. Larry R.

Oldwriter

After reading ALL DAY, I think I may finally understand a bit more about DACs and CD playback. As I NOW understand, the 192kHz/24-bit DACs on EITHER my CD player (analog) or Receiver (Onkyo 701 digital input) will accept digital signals UP TO the maximum numbers listed. Right? Doesn't mean that the CD player IS sampling at more than 44.1. Right?
But one more puzzle: been reading in some of your posts and many Online articles that "virtually ALL CD players in recent years have employed 8 times oversampling." Never saw that on any manual - certainly not my JVC XV-N55SL - it only says "44.1" sampling. Anybody explain that, please?
For now - I'm awaiting whatever takes the place of the Philips 963 this fall - or a similar SACD/DVD/CD player.
Hope I'm getting it! THanks to all! Larry R.

F1nut

I checked the JVC website for your player. That thing does just about everything but wipe your butt...lol. I can't tell if it upsamples or not, but for the money I seriously doubt it. Either way, something like the Philips will sound better, but plan on using the analog outs.

Oldwriter

. . . if you put a small piece of paper on top of the unit - well. . . ahem!
I really love the JVC - the picture is supurb and the sound is much better than my "old" Sony. However. . . I badly need to clean up the mid-range.
As I posted in my other working forum, I've ordered new analog cables from Blue Jeans Cables - and will slap them on the JVC as soon as they get here. IF it makes a difference, it will mean that the player's DAC is better than the Onkyo DAC, right? Or am I missing something here?
Oh, yes - found out - NO upsampling on the JVC. Didn't think there would be.
OK - thanks (again) for your thoughtfulness. Larry R.
OH, BY THE WAY: Can I hook up the CD player so that I play DVD with digital out, and CDs with analog out? Hope so. . .

John K.

Larry, from this and the other thread I see that you've been busy since I last checked in a couple days ago, so I'll add these comments. Yes, you've pretty much got it right; 192/24 refers to the maximum actual sampling rate and bits that the DAC can process(e.g. two-channel DVD-As can be 192/24) . The actual sampling can never be more than what the disc contains, which in the case of CDs is 44.1 KHz. The dummy samples which are mathematically added by over/upsampling to allow gentler filtering and are then discarded have nothing to do with 192/24, but instead relate to the oversampling rate, which as was said is almost universally 8X(i.e. 7 dummy samples added for each actual one). This has been pretty much taken for granted for years and as you've noticed often isn't even mentioned in product literature. Your N55 undoubtedly has a 192/24 DAC with 8X oversampling(these are now cheap enough that they could practically be put into Crackerjack boxes as prizes)and neither it nor your receiver and connecting wires are "bright". However, since I see that you're using the digital output of the player, the entire discussion is moot, since your 701's DAC is doing the processing of digital 1s and 0s coming off the player's laser at a 44.1KHz sampling rate and the player DAC does nothing. Using the digital output even for CD stereo material is almost always the better choice since it's likely that some processing in the digital realm is going to have to take place in the receiver, such as for bass management or using DPLII, etc. for ambience steering to make two-channel material sound a bit more realistic.

Beware of reports that you read of perceived differences in audio components. Unless there are measurable differences which are in fact high enough to be audible(relatively uncommon except in speakers), what are sometimes described as " huge" differences disappear along with the name plates and price tags when the listeners are for the first time required to actually "trust their ears" in a properly controlled double-blind test.

Oldwriter

I seem to learn something new here - not every day - every HOUR! Whew!
That certainly clears up a lot of my confusion re the "8 times oversampling," which I can't seem to find addressed anywhere I look. But I still wonder - what's the use of oversampling if, as you say, the "samples" are simply thrown out? Don't understand that at all!
Also - IF the player oversamples 8 times, wouldn't it be better to use the CD's DAC instead of the Onkyo's - which, I assume, has no oversampling? Maybe I've got it bass-ackwards again. . .
Thank you so much - I feel that I ought to frame your response! Now, I think I understand a bit better - and will continue my Online searching for answers.
And to think - I once thought it very nice to just turn on the receiver, put on a CD, and hit "play." Little did I know!! GRIN
Thanks - again - to all! Larry R.
OOPS - ONE LAST QUESTION: IF my liddle JVC has 8x oversampling, would the Philips 963, with its highly-advertised "upsampling" be any better? Thanks again.

John K.

Larry, the DACs in both the player and the receiver almost certainly use 8X oversampling, so from that standpoint it makes no difference which one is used. You can do a Google on a topic such as "oversampling" to read a little more about it, but briefly, at a 44.1 sampling rate a filter has to drastically roll off response after 20KHz and before 22.05KHz(half the 44.1 sampling rate)to avoid certain clearly audible problems. A filter that sharp(which was used only on the very first Sony CD players over 20 years ago)creates audible problems in itself. A 8X oversampling filter creates a pseudo 352.8KHz sampling rate momentarily, and then the filter only has to roll off the response before half of that(i.e 176.4KHz)and can be much more gentle and creates no audible problem. The extra 7 samples are just blanks which can't be read to increase "resolution" or anything else; that is still set by 44.1KHz and 16 bits. The only effect(and it's of course good and was universally adopted)is again to allow the use of a less severe filter.

F1nut

Originally posted by John K.
Beware of reports that you read of perceived differences in audio components. Unless there are measurable differences which are in fact high enough to be audible(relatively uncommon except in speakers), what are sometimes described as " huge" differences disappear along with the name plates and price tags when the listeners are for the first time required to actually "trust their ears" in a properly controlled double-blind test.

And this you experienced for yourself or did you read it in a article? I'm curious, what gear have you actually had experience with and what gear do you own?

TheReaper

Originally posted by Oldwriter
. . . OH, BY THE WAY: Can I hook up the CD player so that I play DVD with digital out, and CDs with analog out? Hope so. . .

This really depends on if you have the video from your DVD player going into the Onk 701 or not, and what other inputs you currently have connected.

If you don't have the video going through your Onkyo, this is the simplelest. Just connect the JVC DVD Analog Out to the Onkyo 701 Analog In of any un-used input source. For example, if you have the JVC Digital Out connected to the Onkyo DVD Digital In, connect the JVC Analog Out to the Onkyo CD Analog In. On the Onkyo, you then just switch between DVD and CD to switch between Digital and Analog.

If you have the video going through your Onkyo, or if you use the other input sources, this is the best way. Assuming you have your JVC DVD Digital Out connected to the Onkyo DVD Digital In (you switched the default DVD digital in from optical to coax on the 701). You connect the JVC DVD Analog Out L/R to the Onkyo Multi-Channel (5.1) In, Front L/R (There is a chart in the Onk 701 manual that matches this). You then use the AUDIO SELECTOR button on the front panel (or AUDIO SEL button on the remote controller) to switch between Digital and Analog when listening to your JVC DVD player:

Auto - Digital (when playing DVDs)
MultiCh - Stereo un-processed (surrounds and sub-woofer will be dead)
Analog - Analog with DSP processing modes etc, available (when playing CDs)

The directions for this are also in the manual under 'Selecting the type of audio input signal'.

Oldwriter

...at least in information from you all. Wow - I've gotta print out most of it, I guess.
OK - am dealing with setup now - and finally think I understand something about this "sampling" thing. Will definitely go on Google and try to find more info (if I can understand it!)
Anybody out there own a Philips 963? If so - does it "upsample" on both digital and analog output? With what John K. hints at, all players must upsample, or oversample - so if that's true, what's the difference with CD players whose manufacturers tout "upsampling," especially if you can turn it on and off?
What I'm trying to do here, guyz-n-galz (if any?) is to prepare for the purchase of a good SACD/DVD/CD player to replace the JVC - and I want it to be good! I know, I know - I can only get so much within my budget! Hmmm. . . been dare.
Thanks to all - and I DO APPRECIATE all! Larry R.

jmasterj

I own the Philips 963SA ,

I brought it for the upsampling, as a dedicated music player for my system. I have been disapointed with it. First let me explain: when it played correctly their was an audible difference in the sound quality of a CD that was upsampled vs the same CD with the upsampling circuit cut off. I heard new music from old CD's, ie background singers words that use to sound muddy suddenly became clear. Music passages that did'nt quite sound right suddenly made since because I could hear the before missing part. So it does work, and the 963SA can produce this change in detail. So why am I disapointed ? becaues it's in the damn shop.

It's been in the shop since May 2004 and I still have no clue as to when I'll get it back. All they can tell me is" it's on hold for parts, and the parts have been on order since June 16, 2004. My unit was purchased in November 2003. Had problems with the DVD video picture from day one. It did'nt matter because I use my Poineer Elite DVD 47ai for movies. But then the player started having logic problems. It would turn it self on, skip to a different song, stop operating from the controls, or remote etc. Philips customer service on this unit sucks mud. First they had me ship it to Philips Repair Depot in Knoxville, TN next I get a letter saying "The Factory Service Centers are ending repair operations" therefore your player has been shipped to St Louis, MO to a authorized service network repair station. As of today still have the part on back order. They will not trade the unit outright, and it is under warranty. Given the fact the player was defective from the start, and repair service is terrible, I could not recommend this or any other Philips products. Hope this helps.

Look at some of the other brands that upsample, Upsampling is a good thing, but you need a player that will play to enjoy it...

Oldwriter

Yo - thank you for your unfortunate tale of Philips woe. This jibes with what my nutzy but brilliant recording engineer-friend(?) in LA posted me just hours ago. He said in his opinion the Philips stuff needed to go back for "re-tooling." He urged me toward a Pioneer, Sony or Onkyo - though I'll have to wait to see if any of those have true "up-sampling." By now, I'm so confused about that, anyway, that I'd just like to get on with my life - get a remote with a big red "0" in the middle, and when I press it, the music starts. Period. How 'bout dat for getting frustrated?!? GRIN
Seriously - I hear conflicting reports about the 963s - but since they're on their way out anyway - well, we'll see if anything good replaces them.
Right now, I'm in the midst of hooking up ANALOG wires from my liddle JVC to my Onkyo 701 - per heated instructions from many of you (thanks!). Will post any and all differences in sound, etc., later tonight. Sigh. I'm "wired" - in the worst way!!! haha
Still wondering - is oversampling an integral part of the DAC? Or not? And why would an Onkyo receiver have up-sampling in its DAC - IF it does? Does the 8x oversampling work through only analog? Guess it must. Sigh. Working it out. Larry R.

TheGrayGhost

”Still wondering - is oversampling an integral part of the DAC? Or not?”

Yes it is part of the DAC. 8x over-sampling DACs have become so common that DAC spec sheet no longer list it on the front page as a major feature of the chip.

”And why would an Onkyo receiver have up-sampling in its DAC - IF it does?”

It could be that the Onkyo receiver uses the same type 8x over-sampling DAC as the DVD player. I have a Preamp/Processor that has 8x over-sampling on the DAC and a different up-sampling (sample rate converter) chip in the digital signal path before the DAC.

The over-sampling in the DAC operates full time and the up-sampling chip has an off/on setting in the menu.

”Does the 8x oversampling work through only analog?”

Yes that is correct and the up-sampling chip works strictly in the digital domain. The major difference between over-sampling and up-sampling is the a 16bit/44.1kHz input to an oversampling DAC will have the brick-wall filter located at 22kHz and a up-sampled digital stream at 24bit/88.2kHz will be seen by the DAC at that sample rate and cause the analog output to be bandwidth limited at 44kHz instead of the lower BW for Redbook CD audio.

With a higher sample rate the brick-wall filter will be far. far, far removed from the audible range.

Oldwriter

. . . with me, for sure! I THINK I understood most of what you said, and I thank you so much for your patience in trying to explain science to a non-science-type ole ****. GRIN
Now I guess I have to read between a lot of manufacturer lines, in trying to figure out what they REALLY have in their electronics - and how much of it matters on a day-to-day basis.
CHANGE GEARS:
My wife and I spent a frustrating several hours tonight - after hooking up the JVC to the Onkyo 701 with BOTH digital coax and analog cables. We were able to switch back and forth quickly and easily - BUT - try as we both did, we simply were not able to tell any measurable difference between the two. Oh, we THOUGHT that the analog MIGHT be a tad "sweeter," but then, we knew when it was switched on. Sigh.
So what? Well - "what" is that I'm trying to get fine sound from a system which refuses to give it to me - maybe the speakers just aren't enough - maybe the CD player is lacking - all to be constantly checked.
Thanks to all for your help and encouragement! Larry R.

Oldwriter

Well, here we go again - familiar ground. Wife and I did another hour-long A-B test - analog cable vs. digital in put into the Onkyo 701 from my liddle JVC CD player. THIS time around my wife (call her "madam sharp-ears") said to tell all of you that there is, indeed a very subtle difference between the inputs.
Oh - you wanted to know which? Well - Analog wins - by a whisper. Seemed a bit warmer and more "up-front" if that makes any sense to you. Piano (Mozart concerto) sounded rather "tinny" in digital, but more natural in analog.
NOW - big question I have for you - and will call both Onkyo and JVC on this. Is there one of those built-in 8x oversampling filters on the DAC in both the CD a n d the Onkyo? Calling on the experts here, guyz - with thanks! I'm pooped. Larry R.

jmasterj

Just wanted to update things,

I finally got my Philips 963SA back from the shop. A little over two months. It arrived in one box, I shipped it in two. It arrived with a dent in the middle of the top of the unit. Like something heavy droped on it. The picture still is not quite right color is off on some DVD's. The sound quality is very good. They seemed to have fixed the logic problem. So there you have it. I'm lucky because of the way my Bell'O TV stand is made I can only see the front of the player . If I had to look at that dent I could'nt stand it. Maybe next time I service it , ie clean the lens, and lube it, I'll try to smooth it out. The repair was free except cost to ship the unit to Philips. But still, all in all, this whole thing left a bad taste in my mouth. And I probably will never buy another piece of equipment from Philips...

Polkfan

F1nut

Upsampling should add to the bottom end. Perhaps what you think to be less is actually tighter/smoother bass, which can be mistaken for less.