Got the turntable itch

muncybob

I knew it was a matter of time, but I have the upgrade itch again. It's not that I am disappointed with my record player's sound but I have that "I wonder if I can do better" feeling. The Denon tt has been with me for many years now and I know there has been a lot of research/improvements to turntables over those years. So, I'm looking at a new table with premounted cart and an at least 30 day return policy in the event I don't feel the "upgrade" is worth the $$. Read many good things about Rega tables and Crutchfield has a decent return policy, should I consider other brands/retailers? Max budget would be 2k... if I can convince our CFO.

billbillw

I recommend this:

audioluvr

There's probably a ton of ways to improve the sound of your Denon without having to replace it.

msg

Which Denon turntable do you have Bob?

Do you have a sense for what you're after, what you'd like to improve?

Do you have a lot of records and play vinyl enough to justify it for yourself?

I agree with @audioluvr above, there are other areas aside from the turntable itself likely to net you more noticeable gains.

@jdjohn?

A few ideas, in no specific order:
Cartridge
Phono preamp
Wayne's Audio Edge Ring and Center clamp (@bcwsrt will polish it for you)
Record Cleaning
SDS (Sound Damped Steel) Platter Mat (I don't have one of these yet, but @newbie308 does)

motorstereo

Too bad you don't live local to me as I've got the itch to sell my vinyl rig.

Emlyn

I don't think Crutchfield sells Rega? Best they have in general the price range might be Music Hall for a belt drive or Technics (without cartridge) for direct drive. For $2K new you may not do any better than what you have now and could be worse.

The Rega with a decent cartridge for around $2K is probably the P6. Got a Rega dealer local to you?

treitz3

Have you considered Music Hall TT's? They have a 7.3 in your price range. The reason I ask, is that I stepped up to this from a Rega and the sonic change was quite nice.

Edit- I had a Rega P3 and I stepped up to the MH MMF-5.

But I do agree with the others, in that there are accessories that will improve the performance of your current TT. A clamp and peripheral ring improves the sound more than you would think.

Tom

Toolfan66

I have the same itch, but I am going to replace my phono pre first, I plan on going for the ModWright PH 9.0XT when I feel comfortable spending the funds. I feel that will be a game changer for me..

jdjohn

Yes, the model of Denon would be helpful, along with current phonostage, and cartridge.

@msg If the Denon is a flying saucer type, I'm not sure a Wayne's outer ring will fit onto the platter.

msg

Good point about the flying saucer. The platter-specific ring for the Technics may work, though?

jdjohn

Good question, Scott, but I got nuthin. Don't you have one of those rings?

marvda1

Mofi

muncybob

Denon DP1200 w/Shure V15 Type V and Jico SAS stylus as noted in my signature.

The phono stage is part of my Dynaco preamp which has been stated in reviews as good but I have no way to compare it.

I miss typed the brand at Crutchfield, meant to say Pro-Ject.

All my records have been ultrasonically cleaned, I do have an inexspensive clamp. What does the ring do for the sound?

Emlyn

I picked up a new Parasound JC3+ phono preamp from Music Direct last year for a bit below $2K (sale coupon used). That was a surprisingly significant improvement in reducing the noise floor.

Pro-Ject makes good turntables. I think they manufacture the Music Hall turntables still.

Geoff4rfc

Ya know.....I read through these TT threads and yes, I'll admit, I've had the TT itch for years. And every time I get even remotely interested in researching the possibilities of building one, the vision of me living under a bridge instantly appears.

So, as much as I'd love to even pretend I could consider it, I reckon I'll have to opt for @billbillw 's recommendation and just be happy about it....but you go ahead on @muncybob and rock on, I live vicariously through a few of y'all anyway, might as well add one more

Emlyn

I remember Madmax (RIP) telling me and others 20+ years ago that getting superior sound from vinyl by removing clicks/pops and background hum and hiss required a lot more investment than to get good sound out of digital audio. Still true.

treitz3

muncybob wrote: »

What does the ring do for the sound?

Lowers the noise floor, increases the weight of the music and for some reason, it seems to reduce the audible amount of pops and clicks. It just makes the entire experience mo' bettah.

Tom

Emlyn

marvda1 wrote: »

Mofi

Music Direct has their Mofi turntables heavily discounted now.

msg

muncybob wrote: »

Denon DP1200 w/Shure V15 Type V and Jico SAS stylus as noted in my signature.

The phono stage is part of my Dynaco preamp which has been stated in reviews as good but I have no way to compare it.

I miss typed the brand at Crutchfield, meant to say Pro-Ject.

All my records have been ultrasonically cleaned, I do have an inexspensive clamp. What does the ring do for the sound?

Weird, I swear I didn't see any info in your signature yesterday. Do signatures show up in mobile view? I have signatures display disabled in my forum settings, but logged in as a guess on mobile, I still didn't see any details.

Good info.

treitz3 wrote: »

muncybob wrote: »

What does the ring do for the sound?

Lowers the noise floor, increases the weight of the music and for some reason, it seems to reduce the audible amount of pops and clicks. It just makes the entire experience mo' bettah.

Tom

Similar experience here, Tom.

@muncybob
Also flattens warps. This was the number-one reason I bought one. I know the answer to warps is to be more selective with records, but sometimes it can't be helped, and I got really frustrated over the years with this, and how at least half of new records were warped to some degree. Frustrated to the point that I couldn't enjoy buying and listening to records. It just wasn't worth it. It's a non-issue now.

I was aware of periphery rings/edge clamps for higher end tables and was loosely trying to find one off and on for years for the Technics SL-1200.

So, primarily for warps for me, but in my research, I'd also read about refinements from coupling the record to the platter, and adding rotational mass.

Tom's note about increasing the weight of the music is a good description, and I've found an edge clamp and heavy center clamp to clean up the presentation. It's difficult to quantify, though, I'll admit. I've been meaning to record to digital some with and without clamps track plays and review the audio and waveforms, but haven't gotten around to it.

I've read that coupling the record to the platter is supposed to have the effect of reducing/remediating resonance bleed-to-air off the record itself during playback. Consequently, if you think about it, you're getting a fuller, more accurate transfer of the groove read up the stylus, and through the cartridge. With your JICO Stylus, the edge clamp would complement the presumably stiffer cantilever material, however, I just found some documentation that the original Shure V15 Type V used beryllium, which I believe may be stiffer than aluminum?

Anyway, the point being to couple the record to a high mass platter that doesn't ring, and then stiffen the groove transfer path to the cartridge.

Is this the JICO stylus upgrade you have?
Which JICO stylus do you have? Is it one of these? Wondering about the cantilever material
https://www.jico-stylus.com/cartridge-number/v15-type-v-v15-vmr-vst-v-v15-v-b-v15-v-g-ultra500/

Since picking up the Wayne's Audio edge ring and center clamp (I have the heavier clamp; 1lb), I've also become more interested in turntable refinements in general. My tables are the original SL-1200/1210 series, and compared to the newer Technics tables, and that Technics clone Pioneer put out, the PLX-1000, there is a lot of room for improvement.

Chassis damping, tonearm rubber damping sleeve, RCA jacks as opposed to captive cables (careful here, you can make things worse; something to do with cable capacitance)

I find all of this to be part of the enjoyment of listening to records and a turntable setup. You may just want to listen to the music, and if so, then you may not be interested in going this route of "refinement".

You can get stupid with this stuff, but it can be fun, too.

I messaged Wayne to see whether he has anything for the Denon you have, but after seeing it and the "flying saucer" Jody mentioned, I'm not sure even the Technics ring would work. It's beveled on the bottom to make room for the Technics platter, but the Technics "flying saucer" is the entire platter, whereas on your Denon, it's the control ring and stationary.

Also just checked the site. It looks like the SS-T is made to work with other "flying saucers", including the Denon DP-2000, which looks to have a simliar control ring as your DP-1200
https://www.waynesaudio.com/product-page/universal-turntable-periphery-outer-ring-clamp-ss-t

Here's the main page: https://www.waynesaudio.com/shop
Here's the page for the center clamps/weights: https://www.waynesaudio.com/product-page/universal-record-clamp-ws-2

He offers generous package deals, so if you're interested, try not to be put off too much by the listed prices.

I also have @Toolfan66 's Vinyl Death Grip clamp (excellent), based on the widely appreciated Joe's Clamp. Larry's is a great clamp as well; Delrin, iirc, so it's very light and a different refinement path, and right now I'm still exploring the mass path.

Toolfan66

I have yet to invest in a edge clamp, may have to put that on my list of wants..

billbillw

billbillw wrote: »

I recommend this:

The reason I recommended this is because I don't think $2k will get you where you want to be. It might be enough for a significant improvement to the TT, but by the time you get to an upgraded cartridge and phononstage, forget about it. It's almost an endless game of tweaks and upgrades.
Unless you want vinyl to be your primary source and keep buying new expensive vinyl records, just enjoy what you have. Maybe look at a cartridge upgrade and see if there are some DIY maintenance/tweaks that you can perform on the Denon. I know Denon turntables have a strong community on the various forums.

Joey_V

Love tables. Many routes to success. Cart choices also affect end sound as well so that needs consideration. What’s the budget?

treitz3

muncybob wrote: »

Max budget would be 2k...

Tom

Emlyn

True, many routes. In my case I already had the media (a few thousand LPs) so bought a Music Hall MMF-7 which I kept for many years and just built around it. I had several phono preamps in the 20 years that turntable kept turning with just a couple belt changes. A vacuum based record cleaner was one of the best purchases.

msg

Emlyn wrote: »

I remember Madmax (RIP) telling me and others 20+ years ago that getting superior sound from vinyl by removing clicks/pops and background hum and hiss required a lot more investment than to get good sound out of digital audio. Still true.

Yes, I would agree with this.

With all I've spent on turntable related gear and processes, I still don't expect, nor do I get, digital/streaming audio quality. My turntable gear adds/adjustments have certainly improved the presentation considerably in the past 2yrs, but my goals are not to match digital. For me, it's more about the process, the ritual. The immersion and relaxation it sort of requires/forces. I know this sounds contradictory when talking about all the fuss over mods and refinement, but that falls under "process" for me. The tinkering piece.

Toolfan66

msg wrote: »

Emlyn wrote: »

I remember Madmax (RIP) telling me and others 20+ years ago that getting superior sound from vinyl by removing clicks/pops and background hum and hiss required a lot more investment than to get good sound out of digital audio. Still true.

Yes, I would agree with this.

With all I've spent on turntable related gear and processes, I still don't expect, nor do I get, digital/streaming audio quality. My turntable gear adds/adjustments have certainly improved the presentation considerably in the past 2yrs, but my goals are not to match digital. For me, it's more about the process, the ritual. The immersion and relaxation it sort of requires/forces. I know this sounds contradictory when talking about all the fuss over mods and refinement, but that falls under "process" for me. The tinkering piece.

This^^^ Very well said Scott..

pitdogg2

But can you hit 4 on your remote from your seat to get to track 4......

Joey_V

I think at that price, def check the MoFi stuff. Good sale going on last I checked.

bcwsrt

No! There is definitely some more wear and tear on my sweet spot seat due to listening to records.

I will need to do some more A/B'ing with my Wayne's ring and clamp. Based on my own experience, I can't say it's somewhere I'd look for a noticeable improvement to start with. Maybe (probably? more than likely? undoubtedly?) I do not have as resolving a system as those who do report a significant difference have, though.

msg

Good point, Brian, and I agree - I wouldn't start with an edge clamp/ring.

For me, I think the phono pre that @Clipdat forced me into upgrading (ha) and records cleaning made the biggest initial differences.

After that, I'd have to say edge clamp/ring and weighted center clamp is what really tightened up the presentation in my setup. (Also of note, I had 2 or 3 high value records that were unplayable due to warps before. Wayne's ring/clamp were worth it to me just for that fix alone.)

This is presuming you already have a cartridge you enjoy.
For all notes I made above, that was with the Denon DL-301 (original, not MKII), which I really like. I still have a Hana ML to mount and adjust, as well as an AudioTechnica VM540ML. I've only been stalling for over a year on the Hana, longer on the AT...

Each of those will be taking me from an elliptical diamond to a microline, with some other benefits in the cart on the Hana, but with microline/shibata, the stylus shape is supposed to be able to go deeper into the groove to pick up greater detail, so this is another area you might consider @muncybob

skipshot12

For around 2k one could probably land a Yamaha GT2000.
Would be hard to find anything built today, at that price, that could top it.
May get into a GT2000L, forget about landing an X in that price range.

At 2 grand the manufacturing costs, today, to build a decent tt isn't going to get you into a noticeable improvement
compared to your DP1200.

Did I miss what tonearm is on your Denon, original?

I put my Denon DP2000 in rotation often just cause I love the “Lost In Space” flying saucer look.
The tonearm on my Denon is the SME Series III.
To match that level of performance, in my opinion, with tt’s being built today…. I would guess north of 5k would be needed.