Thoughts on a possible REL upgrade.

pearsall001
pearsall001 Posts: 5,091
in 2 Channel Audio
Currently running dual T7x's along with a single HT 1205 MKll in my combo HT/2 channel system. I am very, very pleased with the performance in both venues.
However I stumbled across a REL S812 sub literally in my own backyard at a great price.

I was thinking of replacing the dual T7x's with the single S812 & keeping the HT 1205. I do like the dual T7x's but I think the single S812 would bring more to the table.

Running Maggie 1.7i's & room size is 13 x 30 x 7

Thoughts & suggestions appreciated.

Phil
"2 Channel & 11.2 HT "Two Channel:Magnepan LRSSchiit Audio Freya S - SS preConsonance Ref 50 - Tube preParasound HALO A21+ 2 channel ampBluesound NODE 2i streameriFi NEO iDSD DAC Oppo BDP-93KEF KC62 sub Home Theater:Full blown 11.2 set up.
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  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,741
    There's a shop near me that has some rel subs available

    94i96f9flpgb.jpg
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
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  • Emlyn
    Emlyn Posts: 4,529
    I don't think it would be the best match with the 1.7i speakers.

    In a large room Rel would only recommend a single S510 or dual T9x with the 1.7i speakers for music. The S812 I have is considerably more powerful than the S510s I have and easily overwhelms the main speakers. As a consequence I only run it at about 1/4 power to blend in with a pair of L800s which produce way more bass than the 1.7i speakers. The best matching of subwoofer(s) to main speakers is what's critical.

    For a 3D system for home theater Rel recommends dual T9x matched and balanced to the 1.7i mains, and dual HT1205 MKII for home theater bass with one placed at the rear of the system and one anchoring the center speaker.
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  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 19,137
    You are more likely to hear one sub in mono versus 2 in stereo IME. Also, keeping the sub that low is somewhat normal for a 2 channel system. Otherwise, they can quickly overpower the mains, knock the balance off and overloading the room quickly.

    FWIW, both my Rythmik subs are running at probably 14 to 15%. That's plenty enough to be well balanced to the mains and both to the room.

    One further thought. The larger the sub and the lower it hits, the harder it gets to integrate to both the mains and the room.

    What do you feel that you are missing with your current subs?

    Tom
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
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  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,741
    Are you using any form of room correction
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
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  • pearsall001
    pearsall001 Posts: 5,091
    treitz3 wrote: »
    You are more likely to hear one sub in mono versus 2 in stereo IME. Also, keeping the sub that low is somewhat normal for a 2 channel system. Otherwise, they can quickly overpower the mains, knock the balance off and overloading the room quickly.

    FWIW, both my Rythmik subs are running at probably 14 to 15%. That's plenty enough to be well balanced to the mains and both to the room.

    One further thought. The larger the sub and the lower it hits, the harder it gets to integrate to both the mains and the room.

    What do you feel that you are missing with your current subs?

    Tom

    Not missing out on anything at all. I wasn't even thinking about changing anything then just by chance I stumbled across a guy about 20 min from me that has 2 S812's for sale at a crazy good price. I told him I might be interested in one of them. Just wanted to see if it makes sense or not. No biggie if I don't make the move.
    "2 Channel & 11.2 HT "Two Channel:Magnepan LRSSchiit Audio Freya S - SS preConsonance Ref 50 - Tube preParasound HALO A21+ 2 channel ampBluesound NODE 2i streameriFi NEO iDSD DAC Oppo BDP-93KEF KC62 sub Home Theater:Full blown 11.2 set up.
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  • pearsall001
    pearsall001 Posts: 5,091
    VR3 wrote: »
    There's a shop near me that has some rel subs available

    94i96f9flpgb.jpg

    Man that's crazy!!! I doubt if I could even sneak that one by the wifey! That's a lot of shoes & jewelry I'd be on the hook for.
    "2 Channel & 11.2 HT "Two Channel:Magnepan LRSSchiit Audio Freya S - SS preConsonance Ref 50 - Tube preParasound HALO A21+ 2 channel ampBluesound NODE 2i streameriFi NEO iDSD DAC Oppo BDP-93KEF KC62 sub Home Theater:Full blown 11.2 set up.
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  • pearsall001
    pearsall001 Posts: 5,091
    Emlyn wrote: »
    I don't think it would be the best match with the 1.7i speakers.

    In a large room Rel would only recommend a single S510 or dual T9x with the 1.7i speakers for music. The S812 I have is considerably more powerful than the S510s I have and easily overwhelms the main speakers. As a consequence I only run it at about 1/4 power to blend in with a pair of L800s which produce way more bass than the 1.7i speakers. The best matching of subwoofer(s) to main speakers is what's critical.

    For a 3D system for home theater Rel recommends dual T9x matched and balanced to the 1.7i mains, and dual HT1205 MKII for home theater bass with one placed at the rear of the system and one anchoring the center speaker.

    I sent an email to REL asking their opinion. I also read about the dual 9's mating well with the 1.7i's in my size room.
    It's just that this guy has a pair of S812's at a crazy good price. Otherwise I wouldn't be looking to do anything.
    "2 Channel & 11.2 HT "Two Channel:Magnepan LRSSchiit Audio Freya S - SS preConsonance Ref 50 - Tube preParasound HALO A21+ 2 channel ampBluesound NODE 2i streameriFi NEO iDSD DAC Oppo BDP-93KEF KC62 sub Home Theater:Full blown 11.2 set up.
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  • pearsall001
    pearsall001 Posts: 5,091
    VR3 wrote: »
    Are you using any form of room correction

    Yammie YPAO that does a respectable job. I further tune by ear the 7x's running high level straight from the amp. All are dialed in nicely.
    "2 Channel & 11.2 HT "Two Channel:Magnepan LRSSchiit Audio Freya S - SS preConsonance Ref 50 - Tube preParasound HALO A21+ 2 channel ampBluesound NODE 2i streameriFi NEO iDSD DAC Oppo BDP-93KEF KC62 sub Home Theater:Full blown 11.2 set up.
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  • pearsall001
    pearsall001 Posts: 5,091
    I spoke with REL directly & they were 100% onboard with adding the S812 & said that it will be a huge addition to my system.

    I asked them why their "speaker pairing" said that a pair of T/9x or a single S510 would fit the bill for my size room "Grand Salon" & the Maggie's.
    They said that they are baseline recommendations & that any time you can move up the chain the more performance you can expect.

    They also recommended adding one of my T7/x directly to my center speaker...WHOA! what a remarkable difference it made!

    The fellow I'm buying from just purchased a pair of Focal Grand Utopia's & he's looking into moving up to a pair of No. 32's.
    He has a pair of S812's but at this time the budget only allows for one of them.
    Picking the bad boy up on Monday.

    Might be selling the remaining T7/x. Stay tuned
    "2 Channel & 11.2 HT "Two Channel:Magnepan LRSSchiit Audio Freya S - SS preConsonance Ref 50 - Tube preParasound HALO A21+ 2 channel ampBluesound NODE 2i streameriFi NEO iDSD DAC Oppo BDP-93KEF KC62 sub Home Theater:Full blown 11.2 set up.
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  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,741
    edited December 11
    Which grandes?

    Who needs a subwoofer with grandes?

    Is his room over 1k sq ft
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
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  • Emlyn
    Emlyn Posts: 4,529
    If the seller has the money the dealer may recommend a Rel Six Pack to go along with the Utopias. :D

    The Rel S812 is pretty hefty for its size!
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  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,741
    edited December 11
    The only* reason you could possibly need external subwoofers with the grandes is if you wanted room correction and planned to play at concert levels.

    My first generation grandes easily go to 16hz at extreme volumes in a 25x15 room
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
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  • pearsall001
    pearsall001 Posts: 5,091
    VR3 wrote: »
    Which grandes?

    Who needs a subwoofer with grandes?

    Is his room over 1k sq ft

    Maestro. Don't know the room size.
    "2 Channel & 11.2 HT "Two Channel:Magnepan LRSSchiit Audio Freya S - SS preConsonance Ref 50 - Tube preParasound HALO A21+ 2 channel ampBluesound NODE 2i streameriFi NEO iDSD DAC Oppo BDP-93KEF KC62 sub Home Theater:Full blown 11.2 set up.
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  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,741
    edited December 11
    Ah the maestro is not the grande.

    They have dual woofers but if he wants true low end a sub may be needed for certain genres
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
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  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 19,137
    Yeah, those are two completely different speakers/animals...

    Tom
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
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  • msg
    msg Posts: 10,124
    Hey guys, what's this business about putting a sub below the center?

    I've never heard of this before. Is this to mean place a sub (second?) in the listening space below the center channel speaker?

    Presuming this is in addition to at least one sub placed in best location for the room?
    I disabled signatures.
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  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,741
    Having fun range channels plus a dedicated lfe is the way for a true experience. That's what made sandy gross famous with definitive and his powered sub products
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
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  • Emlyn
    Emlyn Posts: 4,529
    The subwoofer for the center channel doesn't have to be placed beneath the center speaker. It could be placed anywhere in the room using a high level connection, even behind the main listening spot, to be able to produce the full range of sound that's put in a movie soundtrack just for that speaker. Rel makes a wireless transmitter connection system to make this easier.
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  • msg
    msg Posts: 10,124
    Interesting.
    I likely need a newer processor or AVR, as the Parasound Halo C2 I've been happily enjoying since 2014 is missing some of the newer features and functionality, like the ability to adjust the crossover for specific channels, for example. I'm not huge into HT, and only running 3.1 for the space, but with refinements I've attained on the 2ch side/systems over the years, it's revealed sloppiness in the HT/combo system.

    I'm also only using one sub for the system/space, a HSU VTF-15. Sometimes I feel like it gets overwhelmed. Doesn't seem as clean/articulate as the MartinLogan and Velodyne subs I use for music. The HSU sometimes just seems like a rumble box, or congested in complex low frequency scenes, like War of the Worlds.

    I also haven't revisited its setup for years. I'm sure it can use a few tweaks, as my listening prefences have changed. For instance, this sub has a Q control for controlling bass "tension", and I may have previously set it to be a little looser for bass decay I enjoy in some audio tracks. May not be optimal for HT, which is what this setup is used for primarily now, less so in combo modes.

    Anyway, this thread piqued my curiosity here with the note about additional channel-dedicated subs.
    I disabled signatures.
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  • Emlyn
    Emlyn Posts: 4,529
    I was skeptical about the potential benefit of separate subwoofers for each speaker, thinking it might be a marketing money grab from Rel, but after thinking about it and seeing it in action there is merit to what they are calling a 3D bass system. But I also "grew up" thinking a single huge subwoofer banging away in the corner was the only/best possible approach for good home theater sound.
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  • msg
    msg Posts: 10,124
    Yeah, that was the original model I followed for my first "real" setup, coming up on just about 11yrs ago, end of this month. The one big sub, though HSU did say 2 would be better :) (still not as aggro as @VR3 with the 16 unit, minimum :D )

    HSU's motto at the time: "No such thing as too much sub." :)

    I've seen that their designs have advanced in that time, as well as everyone else's, though I've not heard any of their newer subs.
    I disabled signatures.
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  • pearsall001
    pearsall001 Posts: 5,091
    VR3 wrote: »
    Having fun range channels plus a dedicated lfe is the way for a true experience. That's what made sandy gross famous with definitive and his powered sub products

    That's exactly the reasoning for REL's "HT 3D" systems. According to John Hunter Dolby Digital sound was engineered for all speakers to be run full range for the most immersive experience.

    I have had extensive conversations with REL both via Email & phone about setting up their HT 3D in my system. We went into detail about my system, the & room & the REL subs I currently have including the S812 I'll be picking up this coming Monday (dual T/7x, single HT 1205 MKll and a single S812.

    They said to start with a single T/7x for the center speaker. This was a quick & easy install. Simply twist the red/yellow wire from the speakon cable & attach to the positive speaker terminal on the back of the center speaker & float the black ground cable. The LFE .1 is not used here, only the high level. Easy peasy. The 7x is located behind the sofa in the middle of my room (13x30x7). NOTE: all speakers in this configuration have to be set to Large in the AVR. I tweaked the XO & gain to get it to blend seamlessly with the center. All in all w/ trial & error it took about 20minutes. I was immediately struck with a more expansive, thicker & enveloping sound. It was literally a night & day difference between before & after
    the 7x addition.

    My next move is to use the other 7x for the surround channels. Here you simply tap into the surround speaker terminals on the back of the AVR. The red wire goes to the R+ terminal & the yellow wire goes to the L+ terminal & the black ground wire goes to either - terminal. For this application the LFE .1 is also used. Manual tuning will also have to be done for the high level XO & gain. The LFE .1 will be controlled by the AVR.

    The S812 will run off my 2 channel amp & the HT 1205 MKll will pull most of the LFE .1 duties. For 2 channel listening the S812 will be the only active sub.

    This should be a lot of fun & after hearing what a single 7x added to the mix did I'm really stoked how HT will sound after the addition of the other 7x to the surrounds & adding in the new S812 to the mains. Stay tuned.

    "2 Channel & 11.2 HT "Two Channel:Magnepan LRSSchiit Audio Freya S - SS preConsonance Ref 50 - Tube preParasound HALO A21+ 2 channel ampBluesound NODE 2i streameriFi NEO iDSD DAC Oppo BDP-93KEF KC62 sub Home Theater:Full blown 11.2 set up.
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  • Emlyn
    Emlyn Posts: 4,529
    Awesome work. I bet that system's going to be like something you've never experienced before in your home. :D
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  • pearsall001
    pearsall001 Posts: 5,091
    Emlyn wrote: »
    Awesome work. I bet that system's going to be like something you've never experienced before in your home. :D

    That's the goal for sure. The sticky point for me though was to take the plunge after running all speakers as small with the recommended 80hz XO & letting the subs handle the heavy lifting. That's pretty much been the gold standard for as long as I can remember. The new REL configuration goes completely against the grain. This will be a fun transformation once I get all the subs set up with REL's HT/3D protocol.
    I'm picking up the S812 this Monday & will be putting things into place within the next week or two. With so much going on with the holidays finding the time is always challenging. Lol!!
    "2 Channel & 11.2 HT "Two Channel:Magnepan LRSSchiit Audio Freya S - SS preConsonance Ref 50 - Tube preParasound HALO A21+ 2 channel ampBluesound NODE 2i streameriFi NEO iDSD DAC Oppo BDP-93KEF KC62 sub Home Theater:Full blown 11.2 set up.
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  • pearsall001
    pearsall001 Posts: 5,091
    edited December 19
    Well the S812 is in the house. Now I have to make a few room adjustments for the remaining 3 subs (dual T7x's & a single HT 1205 MKll). I have my work cut out for me but it'll be a lot of fun. I'm looking forward to hearing how the main soundstage (LCR) & the
    surrounds perform running full range. A totally different way of dialing them all in is a bit time consuming. A lot has to be done by ear. I will report back in a bit once everything is up & running.
    Post edited by pearsall001 on
    "2 Channel & 11.2 HT "Two Channel:Magnepan LRSSchiit Audio Freya S - SS preConsonance Ref 50 - Tube preParasound HALO A21+ 2 channel ampBluesound NODE 2i streameriFi NEO iDSD DAC Oppo BDP-93KEF KC62 sub Home Theater:Full blown 11.2 set up.
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  • msg
    msg Posts: 10,124
    Well? How is it?
    You've had 9hrs. Most of that would've been 2 meals, a movie, and a nap.
    I disabled signatures.
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  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,741
    Where's the pics??
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
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  • pearsall001
    pearsall001 Posts: 5,091
    VR3 wrote: »
    Where's the pics??

    I know you love your pics!! Just a few to keep you happy 😊
    The S812 is on the left in the front with the Christmas tree on top. The HT 1205MKII in on the right side under the rack table.
    One T/7x is behind the love seat, the other 7x is behind the Lazy Boy

    The center (Mythos TEN) I picked up from Dan & it plays extremely well with the Maggie's & really sprang to life mated with the 7x behind the love seat. Same with the surrounds mated with the other 7x behind the recliner. Only using the high level for the center, using both high level & .1 LFE for the surrounds.

    The S812 is using both high level & .1 LFE. This thing is a beast!bq4mda7kjivv.jpg
    m8x29j5k0mkw.jpg
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    I'm still tinkering with dialing them all in but so far I'm liking what I'm hearing. A much fuller & dynamic room filling sound.

    That's it for now. Still tinkering with XO & gain settings. Mostly done by ear.
    "2 Channel & 11.2 HT "Two Channel:Magnepan LRSSchiit Audio Freya S - SS preConsonance Ref 50 - Tube preParasound HALO A21+ 2 channel ampBluesound NODE 2i streameriFi NEO iDSD DAC Oppo BDP-93KEF KC62 sub Home Theater:Full blown 11.2 set up.
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  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,741
    Ok so how many subs do you have???

    I love it you are really close to that 16 subwoofer benchmark we should all strive for

    Awesome pics and good looking room!
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
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  • Clipdat
    Clipdat Posts: 12,949
    I am wondering what type of music you are listening to that requires this much low frequency reinforcement.
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