Concrete vs Wood floors

heiney9

I have been in this hobby a very long time. I recently moved and my office/den where I have my 2nd (and soon to be 3rd rig) set up is in a finished basement. It's almost twice as large as my old office/bedroom listening space.

While the rig isn't 100% set-up and tweaked I am noticing a lack of bass. I am using the same gear. One difference is rather than Canare 4S11 speaker cables I am using brand new in the box MIT AVt 3's. It could be they aren't broken in yet.

My question is having the same stands with the same spikes on non-plush carpet over concrete will that cause a loss of bass vs. being on a main floor w/carpet over wood flooring.

I've never had a rig in the basement setup with the floor being carpet over concrete.

Again, this is a larger listening space so I'm sure the overall presentation is going to be different. In the old place the bass from the R200's was a bit overwhelming in the room. I could get the sliding closet door to rattle and I could "feel" the bass.

It could be I only have about 5 hours on the new MIT cables.

Just wondering from those of you who moved from a carpet over wood floor in a main level to carpet over concrete in a basement if you noticed a large difference in bass response or bass extension. The main rig will be down here in the family room on the same flooring.

H9

pitdogg2

My question is having the same stands with the same spikes on non-plush carpet over concrete will that cause a loss of bass vs. being on a main floor w/carpet over wood flooring.

Yes. The bass cannot "excite" the concrete like it can a wood floor. The cables are but a small part of what you're noticing. The real culprit is the hard concrete floor.

michaeljhsda2

What Pit said, it's the hard concrete floor, no doubt about it.

heiney9

pitdogg2 wrote: »

My question is having the same stands with the same spikes on non-plush carpet over concrete will that cause a loss of bass vs. being on a main floor w/carpet over wood flooring.

Yes. The bass cannot "excite" the concrete like it can a wood floor. The cables are but a small part of what you're noticing. The real culprit is the hard concrete floor.

I kind of figured the density of the concrete vs wood might be part of the reason. Is there anything I can do to compensate? Generally with the R200's the farther from the back wall the better. Perhaps I'll move them a bit closer.

My RT25i's get swallowed up in this new spacious room and the little amount of bass they are known for is pretty much non-existent.

Might be the first time I might entertain adding a small sub..........but that's a last resort.

H9

Emlyn

What you are hearing is a more accurate representation of how the speakers perform with less of an effect from room gain on the bass. In my view it's best to have a system on a slab floor because there's less that needs to be tamed to get the best out of a pair of speakers. I experienced that for the first time with a pair of LSi15s that I thought sounded bloated in a room with a suspended wooden floor but sounded much more accurate in a room with a slab floor.

mhardy6647

So I know a guy with a hifi. He built a room for it. Purpose-built for it. A big room. Gymnasium-sized. The wall panels float (e.g.). An acoustician with a PhD in physics helped design it and tune it when it was built.
The floor is a big ol' unadorned concrete slab.
Why, I asked.
"Because you know exactly what concrete will do. It's easy to work with."
Perhaps not helpful in the context of this thread, but I was gobsmacked by the obviousnessness of the decision, once it was explained.
EDIT: Yeah, the acoustics in the room are superb. Not anechoic (and not meant to be), but superb.

agfrost

Hey Brock--I agree with the others (and your observations). My main rig is in lower level room, carpet over concrete. Every pair of floorstanding speakers I've had in here has been more bass-reticent than their general reputation would imply (RTA-11TL, SDA 2BTL).

I ended up getting one, then a second small Rythmik subwoofer and haven't looked back--They've given me a much more balanced presentation and have been a big part of my now multiyear experiment with rolling standmount bookies in and out.

Sounds like you've got some experimentation ahead of you. Hope it's more fun than frustrating!

VR3

Crawl spaces add a ton to your sound, good or bad.

Slabs add basically nothing

heiney9

All good comments. I can see how this might be a less "colored" presentation. In my old office the bass was pretty bloated on some stuff.

There's bass there it just doesn't radiate and tickle my feet. Yes, lots of experimenting.

Ironically, there is a loft area, but it's open on 2 sides and I could use that as a cool small bookie 2 channel get away. The problem is anyone in the living room is going to be bothered by the music. It's a very intimate spot and I may put the 3rd rig up there for times when the GF is gone.

My 3rd rig consists of the modded RT25i's, Keces HA-171 (discrete op-amps) used a pre-amp, Shiit Gjallarhorn amp, EE Mini Max Dac Plus with discrete op-amps, MIT cables, Fiio SR11 streamer.

I am more interested in the cool loft space for it's acoustics for near field listening of well recorded music at normal to low level listening.

H9

heiney9

Here are some really quick cell phone shots of the loft over the main floor den. The part that isn't covered by the loft has 25 foot sky lights. So you walk into the den and there is a ceiling (where the loft is) and then the ceiling is like 25 feet up with 3 large rectangular shy lights.

1st photo is from the main floor, 2nd photo is from the den looking back towards the main floor, 3rd photo is a very steep ships ladder. 4th is a pic of the loft area with an over stuffed 2 person couch, cube coffee table and a cabinet mounted on the back wall. The gear could sit on the wall mounted cabinet with a speaker stand on each side. Sitting in the over stuffed chair would be a perfect sweet spot....lol.

heiney9

Ok, back on task. This room has sort of been a catch all for things that are either audio equipment or things we are not sure what to do with yet. Very crude office system set up. I may need to move the R200's closer to the wall. Right now sitting behind the desk, I'm about 7 feet from the speakers.

The biggest impediment in this room is the counter top/cabinets that my Dad had installed when this was his office. He needed a lot of storage. I'm grateful for the storage but the L shaped counter around half the room really puts a kibosh on speaker/gear/desk placement.

The door in the 2nd photo goes to the unfinished/mechanical part of the basement.

The door in the 3rd photo goes to the family room and is the entrance to the room.

heiney9

I did move the speakers back about 7-8" closer to back wall and the bass is a bit fuller. I just need to work with placement.

pearsall001

Hey Brock,

Congrats on your recent move. As you well know every new room will always present new challenges compared to how things sounded in your old room. How much larger is your new space? Wider, deeper, different height? It all adds up to a complently different sound for sure. Trial & error & lots of experimenting should get you where you want to be.

Conradicles

Small 2 channel in that loft is a must! I dig it.

mantis

It's totally not your cables.

So placement , Room size , placement measured vs how they where setup in your old location all make way bigger differences than the speaker wires.

So after your fully moved into that space and thing rest where they may, You can take some measurements. This is what I want you to do.

Measure the distance from you to the center of your speakers , not the speaker them selves but the center space between them. Whatever that measurement is , I want the speakers to be 3/4's apart than that distance is. Then I want you to point them straight ahead, no toe in and listen to music you know every well. After you do that, I want you to slightly point them into your listening space but not directly at you like your nose. What I want you to do is point them so the point where both tweeters meet is ruffly 3 to 4 feet being you. What this does is create a very good image and it tells you alot about how your speakers perform in your room. You will be comparing this setup with the direct ahead approach. It will also tell you how much toe in you will need to achieve sonic perfection.

As far as bass recreation, this is also placement dependent and material dependent . Concrete vs wood flooring responds very different. I still recommend Isolation even on concrete. By looking at the room in it's current condition, your probably getting a lot of reflection and bass absorption. Which isn't a bad thing , just probably very different than your other room. Thinking about adding a sub or 2 to this setup will really change the dynamics of the overall presentation and low end extension.

I have moved systems from one home to another and had to spend some time in the new room achieving my clients goals, recreating the magic I created in the last room and trying to reserve the sonic perfection I seek when setting up a system. Sometimes that usually requires adding subwoofers. Honestly most of the time the location of the Left and right speakers never get located in the ideal placement for bass recreation in most rooms. That's why subwoofer really help with this as you can move them around until you achieve your goals. The left and right don't have this level of flexibility as you Gotta put them where they should go or compromise your experience you will.

heiney9

Dan, I only mentioned the cables since they were new out of the box and not broken in yet. It took about 50-75 hours with the same cables in the TV rig.

I realize I have a lot of tweaking to do. But the de-emphasis of solid bass (and extension) is very noticeable. I am working with positioning and eventually will need to add to room treatments as there is nothing soft in the room.

I have since moved them closer to the back wall and can already hear a difference. But as Ivan posted, there is no wood floor to "excite", which I view as a good thing.

A new listening environment is always a challenge to get right.

H9

P.S. when I get some lengthy free time I'll try some of your recommendations.

mantis

H9,
But fun. I find it exciting to be able to have new tweaks to fool around with. Room treatments are absolutely a must.